Americans could lose the right to resell their own possessions
- Thread starter Shawn Knight
- Start date
Tygerstrike
Posts: 827 +93
Seems like sour grapes from Wiley more then anything else. Its supposed to be "a fair product at a fair price". But if he/they are selling the books cheaper somewhere else, they have no right to sue for someone taking advantage of the global market. The internet has changed how things are done. Perhaps this will help to steer the Laws of the Land to a more internet friendly basis. This case will more then likely be tossed so far out the door it wont even be funny. I can also see Wiley getting sued for price fixing on text books because of this.
This should be an interesting few months for this issue. I really cant wait to see this case implode on Wiley. They are going to have the same "Luck" that a cartoon character of a similar name always gets lol.
This should be an interesting few months for this issue. I really cant wait to see this case implode on Wiley. They are going to have the same "Luck" that a cartoon character of a similar name always gets lol.
Wendig0
Posts: 1,156 +146
I don't see how Wiley can even claim copyright infringement unless Kirtsaenge sold them as Kirtsaenge Textbooks or another moniker that wasn't Wiley's. Simply reselling the books at a higher price than what he imported them for doesn't fall under copyright law (by my limited understanding of it), even if the company he imported them from wasn't the original country of publication/manufacture. I see a smart guy, trying to make an honest buck like any other good entrepreneur.
amstech
Posts: 2,659 +1,824
I am sorry but nothing like this could ever be successfully implemented. It violates the most basic of human freedom and rights, nothing any government can give or take away if they choose to abuse thier power.
The people decide what is right and wrong, even though most of society and currency is designed and controlled, even then you can only take it so far.
There will be a backlash and all types controlling parties will be held accountable.
This has to be mostly associated with devices/electronics and other patented items.
If they are talking about people's clothes and furniture, then its absolutely ridiculous.
Maybe I am missing something here.
The people decide what is right and wrong, even though most of society and currency is designed and controlled, even then you can only take it so far.
There will be a backlash and all types controlling parties will be held accountable.
This has to be mostly associated with devices/electronics and other patented items.
If they are talking about people's clothes and furniture, then its absolutely ridiculous.
Maybe I am missing something here.
Xclusiveitalian
Posts: 879 +307
If this passes it is truly insane how bad things are getting...soon we won't have a right to leave our houses.
G
Guest
New Zealand did something similar a while back. During the Rugby World Cup retailers in NZ were selling All Blacks jerseys for something like $250. People found they could order the exact same jersey from a retailer in the US, including shipping for like $100. The Government found out and blocked all imports from that Reseller. To react local sellers dropped there prices by like $20!
I brought an SSD from the US the other month. Cost me $200 but customs charged me 50% import tax! Even so it was still cheaper than the exact same item in NZ.
I say, if you can buy something cheaper abroad you should be able to. Free trade and all.
I brought an SSD from the US the other month. Cost me $200 but customs charged me 50% import tax! Even so it was still cheaper than the exact same item in NZ.
I say, if you can buy something cheaper abroad you should be able to. Free trade and all.
cliffordcooley
Posts: 13,141 +6,441
If "Supap Kirtsaenge" needs any supporters, I'm there. This suit against him is pathetic.
"Wiley, the book publisher in question, admits they sell textbooks for less outside of the US. Even so, they decided to sue Kirtsaenge for copyright infringement"
First of all, if they sell the item for the same price here that they sell overseas it would not be an issue.
That said, I am not sure how the copyright laws would apply to physical items like cars and furniture which is not covered by copyright. Copyright laws pertain to intellectual property. When you purchase a book or music you are paying far more for the content then your are for the physical material and labor used to produce each copy.
When you purchase a piece of furniture or a car the value is largely the material and labor that went into the manufacture. In effect title to the item in question passes to the purchaser. With things like software, or books it is more of a right to use, that transfers with sale to the purchaser. Making copies is violating the terms of the right to use. However, you can legally sell the software to someone but only if you are giving up your right to use it. It is only when you make a copy to sell (music, book, software) while maintaining personal use that you are in violation of the copyright laws.
First of all, if they sell the item for the same price here that they sell overseas it would not be an issue.
That said, I am not sure how the copyright laws would apply to physical items like cars and furniture which is not covered by copyright. Copyright laws pertain to intellectual property. When you purchase a book or music you are paying far more for the content then your are for the physical material and labor used to produce each copy.
When you purchase a piece of furniture or a car the value is largely the material and labor that went into the manufacture. In effect title to the item in question passes to the purchaser. With things like software, or books it is more of a right to use, that transfers with sale to the purchaser. Making copies is violating the terms of the right to use. However, you can legally sell the software to someone but only if you are giving up your right to use it. It is only when you make a copy to sell (music, book, software) while maintaining personal use that you are in violation of the copyright laws.
G
Guest
This is not about creating a new law, this is a court case about the interpertation of an existing law. I don't believe the plaintifs will win the case but we will see.
hahahanoobs
Posts: 5,212 +3,071
Won't happen. Period.
*moving on..."
*moving on..."
treetops
Posts: 3,064 +784
Lol rich people are pissed because the common man can exploit the global economy through ebay so funny. No we don't have sweat shops but I can buy a extra battery for my high end RC car for half the price from some back water asian country. The only downside is you have to wait about a month for shipping.
Then there is this young lad who made a living off of it, NICE. Along side with wow gold farmers and all the super cheap 1 month shipping electronics all over ebay.
Then there is this young lad who made a living off of it, NICE. Along side with wow gold farmers and all the super cheap 1 month shipping electronics all over ebay.
ramonsterns
Posts: 744 +13
I need to get around copywriting the english language.
Money, Money, Money...
Money, Money, Money...
UnknownSky
Posts: 43 +5
Sooooo still going to sell what I have bought to whomever I want and going to buy whatever I please from whomever I please. Please...dear God please try and stop me 
G
Guest
@Zilpha -"Yea, but "we, the people" sure as hell aren't doing anything about it. Back in the day, when a tyrant went too far, the people would overthrow him by force. Now? We live in a soft society of crybabies who would rather post on internet forums than actually do anything about it."
As Fish once sung in "Vigil in a Wilderness of Mirrors":
And you sit there and talk revolution
But can you tell me just who's in command?
When you tell me the forces we're fighting
Then I'll join you and gladly make plans
But for now only our t-shirts cry freedom
And our voices are gagged by our greed
Our minds are harnessed by knowledge
By the hill and the will to succeed
As Fish once sung in "Vigil in a Wilderness of Mirrors":
And you sit there and talk revolution
But can you tell me just who's in command?
When you tell me the forces we're fighting
Then I'll join you and gladly make plans
But for now only our t-shirts cry freedom
And our voices are gagged by our greed
Our minds are harnessed by knowledge
By the hill and the will to succeed
G
Guest
Crap, that means I can't sell under ware that I grow out of....sheesh!!
Goodbye E-Commerce....
Goodbye E-Commerce....
waterytowers
Posts: 125 +23
End price discrimination and this case goes away Greedy companies like to make every penny so this will of course never happen.
The only way to get fair pricing for all is by using legislation, a lot of markets do not have competition to help reduce prices. Set a price and everyone in all countries have to pay the same amount, before taxes and charges set by the relevant country of course. This keeps consumers happy and means the company does not have to maintain pricing structures for every country, as it is a single price for all. In a global economy, the price should be global.
America is built on the idea of capitalism and capitalists love their right to price discriminate, their policy is whatever the local market will accept. Capitalists will pay handsomely to maintain their rights and their profits. Government policy setters are happy to take that money.
Since this is an American company suing a non-american in America, I see Wiley winning by a landslide....
Greedy companies like to make every penny so this will of course never happen. The only way to get fair pricing for all is by using legislation, a lot of markets do not have competition to help reduce prices. Set a price and everyone in all countries have to pay the same amount, before taxes and charges set by the relevant country of course. This keeps consumers happy and means the company does not have to maintain pricing structures for every country, as it is a single price for all. In a global economy, the price should be global.
America is built on the idea of capitalism and capitalists love their right to price discriminate, their policy is whatever the local market will accept. Capitalists will pay handsomely to maintain their rights and their profits. Government policy setters are happy to take that money.
Since this is an American company suing a non-american in America, I see Wiley winning by a landslide....
G
Guest
I just read the Writ of Certiorari in the case (http://sblog.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/Kirtsaeng-Certiorari-Petition.pdf). The case is not that earth-shattering. It simply calls for clarification of a conflict in the wording of the copyright laws. Kirtsaeng was selling new textbooks purchased in Thailand on eBay. This circumvented the textbook copyright owners the right of first sale in the U.S. Mr. Kirtsaeng is correct that there is a conflict in the wording of different parts of the law. But he has generally been getting his butt kicked from the first jury trial on up. Don't worry, this will not affect your garage sale.
G
Guest
I don't think that this specific case is that clear. Textbooks, which admittedly sometimes are quite expensive when you buy them in a 1st world-country, are indeed often sold for much less in development countries.
But I think the publishers do some mixed calculation here; selling the book for the lower price in the entire world wouldn't be cost-covering, especially for elaborately made books , e. g. with many figures. However, to print some more and sell it for a lesser price in 3rd world countries makes those books affordable for students there and probably reduces printing costs per book, and therefore perhaps also makes books cheaper that are sold in the USA or Europe.
At least with books frome the UK there are sometimes even special versions, eg with paperback instead of hard cover, that are subsidised by the british government as a development aid (maybe there is some equivalent subsidy from the USA too, I don't know),. On most books on sale in 3rd world bookstores I saw, it is explicitly stated on the frontispiece or inside, that those books are "only to be sold outside the USA," or "not to be sold in UK".
Hence, I think the situation is different here from selling a used car on ebay, and I cannot fully approve this business model, especially in case it involved reselling of subsidised books.
I must admit that I myself took advantage of those cheap offers when, as a medical student, I was abroad several times for practical training and internships in Egypt, Sudan and Kenya, where you could get e.g. "Cecil's Textbook of Medicine" for merely 20% of the US price.. However, I only bought those books for personal use, not for resale.
But I think the publishers do some mixed calculation here; selling the book for the lower price in the entire world wouldn't be cost-covering, especially for elaborately made books , e. g. with many figures. However, to print some more and sell it for a lesser price in 3rd world countries makes those books affordable for students there and probably reduces printing costs per book, and therefore perhaps also makes books cheaper that are sold in the USA or Europe.
At least with books frome the UK there are sometimes even special versions, eg with paperback instead of hard cover, that are subsidised by the british government as a development aid (maybe there is some equivalent subsidy from the USA too, I don't know),. On most books on sale in 3rd world bookstores I saw, it is explicitly stated on the frontispiece or inside, that those books are "only to be sold outside the USA," or "not to be sold in UK".
Hence, I think the situation is different here from selling a used car on ebay, and I cannot fully approve this business model, especially in case it involved reselling of subsidised books.
I must admit that I myself took advantage of those cheap offers when, as a medical student, I was abroad several times for practical training and internships in Egypt, Sudan and Kenya, where you could get e.g. "Cecil's Textbook of Medicine" for merely 20% of the US price.. However, I only bought those books for personal use, not for resale.
G
Guest
Actually, the law prohibits reselling an item outside the country of origin. If the suit is upheld, maybe people will start buying stuff made in the country in which they live.
cliffordcooley
Posts: 13,141 +6,441
I want to see proof. Where are you coming from with this claim?
G
Guest
It's all right. Manufactures will actually rent their products to the customers (ie $ 1000 laptop) getting hard cash and when the product is obsolete the manufacturer will get it back, so HE will sell it again as used! After all, what is a 60% profit for the first sale and another 40% for the second etr. And, in any case, courts and congress will always be "available" to assist poor companies in getting more and more and more and more and more profit. Mind you, the air we breath will be ruled "copyrighted" and we all have to pay for it!
G
Guest
Companies wouldn't have to worry about this if they would just sell stuff at the same cost as overseas instead of gauging us here in the US.
G
Guest
Umm, so the Wittner German hand-made Black Forest wood metronome I bought in 1985 from a pawn shop I can't resell? wanna bet? You can't prevent swapping though!!! Straight-across barter with no money changing hands!!
G
Guest
I don't see this as copyright infringement unless someone were copying the book and shipping it here.
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