Hello everyone, I am new here and this is my first post. Boy am I glad I found this place...I am looking forward to becoming more knowledgable about all aspects of PC's. For right now I am looking to find out what kind of video card I need. Not "which one is best" - I went through the threads in this section and it's clear that there is enough good dialogue on that to help me out. But I am relatively clueless about all the acronyms used to describe the characteristics of video cards.

My internet research on this has come up surprisingly short. What I could find out from my system specs is that my card is AGP and is an NVidia Vanta 16MB (don't laugh). My main concern is that my system specs say my video memory is "AGP-2X upgradeable", and my chipset specs say "complies with AGP 2.0 specifications for 1X and 2X", but all I see when shopping for video cards is "8X". Now I don't even know what that means. Because mine says it is upgradeable, does that mean that I can use a modern 8X video card with high speed, massive memory, etc?

And I really don't know how much memory I will need either. I plan on getting into gaming a bit and playing some of the modern games, but probably not to the degree of serious gamers. In fact the rest of my system might not be up to it for all I know.

My PC is an HP XL776 w/ AMD Athlon 850, AMD Irongate (AMD-751) chipset, 60GB harddisk, 384MB PC100 RAM, and 19" monitor.

Is 64MB video memory enough to handle modern games without stumbling? Money is somewhat of an issue.

I would like to turn the floor over to the experts now and respectfully ask that if anyone has a couple of minutes could you please give me some advice?

-Mike

:wave: Hello & Welcome to TechSpot :wave:

Don't have time for a long answer, but here is some information to get you started

With that motherboard you cannot use an AGP 8x (or 4x if memory serves correctly) card. This is due to the voltage being supplied by the AGP port.

You need to find an old card which supports AGP 2x, a GeForce 2, Voodoo 3, perhaps a Geforce 3 or Voodoo 5.
But none of these cards will be very good in todays and tomorrows games.

As for memory, you can get away with 64mb, but then you won't be able to use any FSAA (Full Scene/Screen AntiAliasing), which imo is a very usefull thing.


Your current system will be a bottleneck in new games, especially your videocard. But I have a problem recommending a new card, as it will not really last you long enough to be worth the money.

And speaking of money, how much money have you put aside for this upgrade?

A new system (cpu, hsf, motherboard, ram, Case w/pusu) "only" costs around 200$ @ NewEgg + whatever videocard you'd like to buy.

• APEX Super Case Mid-Tower Case With 300W Power Supply, Model "ATX3300-P4" -OEM
• ASUS KM400 Chipset Motherboard for AMD Socket A CPU, Model "A7V8X-MX SE" -RETAIL
• Kingston ValueRAM 184 Pin 128MB DDR PC-2100 - OEM
• Scythe Samurai 80mm CPU Cooler, Model "SCSM-1000" -RETAIL

This might be expensive, but aside from your harddrive and cd/dvd-roms, you'll be getting a brand new system.
You'll also be able to buy whatever videocard you want, instead of having to look for older cards.

Note, this is only something for you to think about, as, depending on your gaming interests, the system you've got will be able to last a bit longer with a new video card.

(Hmm, this became a bit of a long post after all. Guess I'd better hurry back to work then )

I have to agree with Mr G. I don't see a point of putting too much money in the upgrade. If it gets too much, I reckon it be better for the money to be spent on a new system.

Just expanding on what MrG said.
If your motherboard only lists support for 2x AGP card then inserting a 8X AGP (or 4x) gaming card into it will fry the card instantly (and/or the motherboard). 8x AGP works on 1.8v (i think) while 2x worked on 3.3v.
There is little point upgrading the system you have at the moment if you want to play games on it - it would be better to spread your money around a new system - again follow MrGs recoommendations or something similar.

Steg

Whoa, am I glad I asked. I had spotted a GeForce4 440 @ amazon for $44 shipped and was almost ready to hit the button. You guys have saved me a lot of hassle and frustration. I didn't know I could get the basics for a new system for so little $...I mean I'm poor but I'm not THAT poor. Plus I will be able to use my monitor, 2 CDRW's, and hard disk. Do those systems at newegg come with OS? Well I'll find out because I'm going there now to look anyway. Thanks again folks - this is why I joined :>]

-Mike

Whereas I still think you should upgrade your system, I've found a couple of alternatives if you really don't want to upgrade it.

PCI graphic cards...

From what I've found you can get either a GeForce FX 5200 or a Radeon 9200SE in a PCI configuration.
If you're lucky you might even find a Radeon 9200.

They'll set you back around 70 - 1000$ (judging from the prices I've found), and I'm uncertain if they'll drop any longer, since these cards most likely aren't being produced in any large quantities.

This will allow you to run your games in a bit higher resolutions than today, but that's about it.

But if you could save up around 350$, I'd buy the set-up I outlined above (or something similar, I just took whatever was cheap and not crap). Then you'll have ~150$ to buy a vid card for.

You can get a Radeon 9600pro for 120$ and higher.
Or a GeForce FX 5700 for 129$, FX 5600 for 122$
There's also Radeon 9800SE for aroudn 140$
(Prices taken from the PriceWatch link on top of the forum)

This will get you a system, which should last you several years

We're just glad to help you out


The setup I quoted doesn't include an OS, no, so you'll have to buy that separately, or use the one you've got now. BTW: That setup was just chosen at random taking the cheapest prices for parts that are OK.

But if you're going to upgrade your system, tell us how much you'er willing to spend, and we'll put together an offer or two for you to choose from.

That way you know you'll be getting the most value for your money

MrG you are the man. OK, with what I now know this is how I'm looking at it:

I didn't know I had the option of using a PCI video card, but I can't see spending that $ to upgrade an older system when a new system could be had for a small investment.

I like that I could get what you consider a decent base system for $200 (+card), but I would spend up to $500 if I could get a REALLY good modern system w/superfast processor, high quality motherboard, big RAM, etc...I could probably get a couple dollars back by parting out my current RAM chips and other stuff. I am perfectly willing to reuse my CDRW's (don't need DVD burners, etc) and I still think my 60GB hard disk will be enough (except it's not 7200rpm - I don't know how important that is).

I guess I could use some advice on OS's also. If I could save that expense it would be cool. I am using 98se, I am used to it, and I know some people still choose to use it when building a new system. But if it's time to make the switch to something newer I would.

I may be frugal but I don't mind spending if I am "getting the most value for my money" as you said. I really appreciate this time spent on my behalf

-Mike

Heheh, thanks

Based on what you've outlined, I've picked a system which should give you very good performance, even in the years to come...

(Unfortunately, as I don't live in the states, I can't register @ newegg, so you'll have to search for each of the components)

System

• ANTEC Solution Series Super Mid Tower Case with 350W Power Supply, Model "SLK3700AMB" 59.99$
  (A case with powersupply, which should be more than enough to run the system)
• SAMSUNG 80GB 7200RPM IDE Hard Drive, Model SP0802N, OEM Drive only 70$
  (An 80GB 7200rpm drive. Not really needed, but just thought I'd add it. It's got a 3 y. warranty which is why I chose this drive)
• Buffalo Technology 184 Pin 256MB DDR PC-3200 - OEM 55$
  (Generic? RAM which has gotten good reviews. Very fast)
• ASUS nForce2 400 Chipset Motherboard for AMD Socket A CPU, Model "A7N8X-X" -RETAIL 69$
  (A good motherboard based on the nforce2 chipset. Has integrated sound and LAN)
• AMD Athlon XP 2500+ "Barton", 333 FSB, 512K Cache Processor - Retail 80$
  (A good cpu, which should last you quite some time. I've chosen retail since it's on sale (only in easter) and includes a HSF)
• POWERCOLOR Evil Commando 2 ATI RADEON 9700 PRO 128MB DDR DVI+CRT+TV AGP 147.4$
  (A very good graphics card. It's cheap, but refurbished so it might be damaged.)
• SAPPHIRE ATI RADEON 9800 PRO Video Card, 128MB DDR, 256-bit, DVI/TV-Out, 8X AGP -BULK -OEM 210$
  (An even better graphics card, easter savings campaign)

If you choose to get the harddrive and the refurbished Radeon 9700pro, that will cost 499.99$ including shipping. (FedEx saver)

If you drop the harddrive and take the Radeon 9800pro it'll cost you 488.99$ including shipping

I'm not sure which I'd use, as I'm a bit weary of buying refurbished items over the net. It might work like a charm, or it could just as well be a spawn of ........

The 9800pro might last you a bit longer than the 9700pro, but no matter which you choose, it's going to be an extreme difference compared to what you're using now.

As for getting a lot of RAM, it's a bit pricey right now imo, so you might want to buy one stick now (as I've listed) and buy another one when/if prices come down (and you've saved up some more cash )


I've not selected an OS for you, because I think W98SE is an OK OS. That, and the fact that buying a new one will cost from 90$ and up to 140$

But there's no denying you will need to upgrade OS in the not so distant future, since Microsoft has discontinued W98 for WHQL testing of drivers. This means that less manufacturers will put out drivers for it.
(ATI might or might not stop supporting it. On their last release they said that W98 will be supported by the WinME drivers, but for how long is unsure (but I still feel that an ATI card will be the best value for your money))

Personally, I'd buy one of the system I've outlined, then save up 20-30$ a month, and buy a new OS this summer.
NOTE: if you're a student, MS has student discounts. They're a bit of a hassle as they require you to send in some paperwork to prove your a student, but will give you the software cheaper. (At least they required a lot papers last I checked, but that is over a year ago)
Here is an offer for WinXP Home upgrade (from w98) for students. It costs 87$ compared to 105$ for non-students.
(But newegg.com has an offer for 91$)

If there is anything you're unsure of, or don't agree with what I've suggested, post back, and we'll see if we can't find you what you're looking for

Hey Mr.G, I was doing some shopping earlier today before I read your last post, and after seeing your most recent suggestions I have a couple more ?'s.

What makes this case better and therefore more expensive than the last one you suggested - is it because it matches up better somehow with the second list of parts?

I was thinking I wanted to start with atleast 512MB of RAM, unless you think it unnecessary. I got the idea that you need atleast that much nowadays. Untrue? Does 256MB of DDR RAM in a modern system behave differently than 256MB of PC100 RAM in, say, my current system? I also had no idea that one RAM chip with the exact same specs as another would perform better or worse - like how you mention the Buffalo Tech RAM getting good reviews and being very fast. And what is the difference between PC-3200, 2700, and 2100? If my machine required DDR RAM I could use any of those right?

Is it better to get a CPU with an included heat sink and fan or to get a CPU only and install your own cooling system. Does it make any difference apart from cost, what is on sale, whether my CPU of choice comes with one or not, etc...? I never really knew much about cooling or how important it is.

When I went to newegg earlier this is what I came up with, just messing around (I stuck with what you suggested for case and motherboard, and chose the same CPU, sans HSF, that you ended up suggesting later)...

APEX Super Case Mid-Tower Case With 300W Power Supply, Model "ATX3300-P4" -OEM

ASUS KM400 Chipset Motherboard for AMD Socket A CPU, Model "A7V8X-MX SE" -RETAIL

AMD Athlon XP 2500+ "Barton", 333 FSB, 512K Cache Processor - OEM

Viking 184 Pin 512MB DDR PC-2700 - OEM

Scythe Samurai 80mm CPU Cooler, Model "SCSM-1000" -RETAIL

Microsoft Windows XP Home Edition with Service Pack SP1a - OEM

The total came to $381.49 before shipping (I could save $20 by getting the same CPU that is on sale with the included HSF). I figured I would keep my hard disk at the time, but its funny that you suggested one, because as I was mentioning this possible upgrade to my brother, he said he would love to take my current system off my hands at whatever price I thought was fair. So...last question (for now ) ...any idea what it would be worth? I would cut a chunk off the top for my bro, of course

Well this has turned into quite the post, and I know it's a lot of questions. As always, I appreciate your help, but please don't feel obliged. All the best...

-Mike

What you've selected there looks like it would be a good system, along with whatever video card you choose. Only thing I dislike, or may cause future problems is the 300w Powersupply, with as many CD-roms and junk as you have, and with that much of a system...may suck the life out of it....

Oh by the way, 512mb or more only...I finally upgraded from 384mb to 768mb recently...what a difference....

i agree with Mr. G in all his wisdomness. i have a system like the last one he suggested and it rocks. now for your RAM questions. 512mb of RAM is suggested to run windows xp smoothly. 256mb will be more than enough to run windows 98 and any game smoothly. you dont NEED it but its nice to have. ok the two types of RAM you are talking about here are SDRAM and DDR RAM. DDR stands for Double Data Rate. which means the data travels at twice the speed of SDRAM(i think, correct me if im wrong). it also has higher bus speeds and requires different sockets than the SDRAM. PC- 3200, 2700, and 2100 are all different speeds of the RAM. PC- 3200 being the fastest out of those three. and your new system will most likely require DDR. and as for which it supports you will have to check its specs, but most newer boards will support those three.

CPU's: ones with a heatsink are retail and come with a manufacturers warranty. ones sold as OEM do not have the manufacturers warranty. since your behind on the money a retail processor with the stock HSF will be fine for your system as of now.

i would go with the last post Mr. G made as for system specs with the Radeon 9800pro(i own one and they are great), those are good components and some users on this board have some of them and would recommend them.

I think I chose this case over the other because of the Antec PowerSUpply (PSU). It's rated for 350W, and should give you nice clean current.
But it is by no means a must. The other case I suggested earlier might have a just as good (if not better) PSU.

To answer the last first, yes you can use whatever DDR up to the max the mobo chipset supports. However, if you buy ram rated for faster speeds than your motherboard, you will not be able to realize their full potential.

The reason I chose 256mb ram is that it works very well with W98SE. (W98SE has some problems with too much ram) another reason I chose 1x256mb ram, was because I was going to suggest you buy another similar stick, and use that on the motherboard I suggested. This will then allow you to utilize the mobo's Dual Channel RAM function, which gives you an increase in memory speeds And as the name implies, it only works with 2 ram sticks. Sorry that I forgot to mention this in my prev post.

So if I was going to put 512MB of RAM in a mobo with dual channel function, I should get 2 x 256, instead of 1 x 512?

If I sell my cr@p to my brother, would he actually be better off with the 256MB of RAM (given the problem 98se has with too much RAM)? That way I could auction off a 128MB stick and probably bring back another $20+.

One more thing guys...
When I tell people how I can't believe how affordable it is to put together a high quality modern system yourself, I am hearing this - "Yeah but dude if you try and build one yourself and install the OS yourself, etc, it takes like a month of hell to get everything working right. That's why a lot of people choose to buy prefab like Dell, Gateway, etc..."
I know most people on this board probably know a lot more about computers than the average Joe, but what is your take on this?

That was the idea, yes... But that costs more.
Or you could buy one 512MB stick now, and one more later one...

It won't really hurt him if you take it out...
And if you can get 20$ for it, then do it.

Since you're his brother, I'd sell it to him for around 100$, as I've found out that systems like yours go for around 150-170$ (but you have to find someone who wants it first)

The first time you build your own computer, it's kinda hard. But as long as you follow the instructions, it's not that hard.

Also, we've got a thread about it here, which will help you out.

As far as the OS goes, yes there are settings which you have to set, programs to install and update etc., but nothing really timeconsuming.

Last time I built a system from scratch, it took me one afternoon to have everything set up the way I like it, and that was with a lot of breaks.

In your case, I'd guess it'd take about a day to build, as long as you've got your old computer and netaccess so you can ask for help if you get stuck...

Also, just imagine the faces on the people saying "Yeah but dude if you try and build one yourself and install the OS yourself, etc, it takes like a month of hell to get everything working right. That's why a lot of people choose to buy prefab like Dell, Gateway, etc..."
when you reply "Oh, yeah? I built a system from scratch in a day, and it wasn't hard at all!"

Thanks MrG! I guess I was really just looking for a confidence boost. I am going to spend the day with my family and do some more shopping tonight. I will probably come up with another list soon and run it by you and everyone else to make sure there isn't anything that really doesn't belong. Have a great Holiday...

-Mike

IMO those people say that because they are afraid of trying something new.If you are careful and fully grounded you will not have any problems putting together your new computer and installing OS.All it takes is time and patients.PS good luck and these guys are great at solving any probs that crop up along the way

No worries, I'm buying a new system instead of upgrading the vid card in the old one.

-Mike

ps - Party on Rick...When asking for advice some blathering is to be expected

BTW: There's a great deal on a Radeon 9800 XT @ Fry's these days...
Found some info about it here...

But if it's a Fry's near you on the other hand I have no idea...