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LCD Response time and games

By altheman
Jun 5, 2006
  1. I was wandering if a lcd monitor with a slow response time e.g 25ms, could cause frame rates in games to become lower, or is the effect limited to ghost effects.
     
  2. Nodsu

    Nodsu TS Rookie Posts: 5,837   +6

    A monitor has nothing to do with system framerates. Your perceived framerate is limited by the monitor's refresh rate of course.
     
  3. altheman

    altheman TS Rookie Topic Starter Posts: 425

    That clears up one issue.

    Im trying to find out why GTA:SA and Far Cry are jerky on my desktop pc, whereas they works fine on my lower spec laptop.

    The desktop spec is:
    P4 3.0ghz (with HT turned Off)
    512 RAM (Dual Channel)
    120 GB 7200rpm HD
    XFX 6600gt 256 RAM

    The monitor refresh rate is 60 hertz.
     
  4. kangaruffian

    kangaruffian TS Rookie Posts: 175

    LCD monitors

    LCD's don't refresh
    and yes 25ms can produce some blurring/ghost effects :mad: 16ms (or lower)
    is better for gaming
     
  5. Nodsu

    Nodsu TS Rookie Posts: 5,837   +6

    Erm.. If the image on a LCD is not refreshed, then how do you see screen updates?
     
  6. kangaruffian

    kangaruffian TS Rookie Posts: 175

  7. Nodsu

    Nodsu TS Rookie Posts: 5,837   +6

    Yes of course. But where does the LCD get its information from? From the video card. And it takes an x amount of time for the vid card to push out the updated image from the video memory. That is the refresh rate.
     
  8. altheman

    altheman TS Rookie Topic Starter Posts: 425

    Ive not noticed any ghost effects or blurring, but i still cant work out why GTA SA and Far Cry play smoothly on my laptop, and not my desktop pc. I even turned off HT to see if incompatabilities are responsible.

    My Laptop spec is:

    AMD 64 Mobile 3700+
    512 RAM
    80 GB HD
    ATI X700 Mobility Radeon 120MB ram


    the only thing faster on my laptop then the desktop is the Front Side Bus speed, i dont think that makes a huge difference.
     
  9. kangaruffian

    kangaruffian TS Rookie Posts: 175

  10. kangaruffian

    kangaruffian TS Rookie Posts: 175

    soorry bit outta topic.. anyway do u use same game settings on both puters? exsample same resolution?
     
  11. altheman

    altheman TS Rookie Topic Starter Posts: 425

    Both comps run at native resolutions, the desktop resolution is higher. Even with lowest settings on FarCry, there is still jerkyness, but only occasionally. the same for GTASA as well.
     
  12. kangaruffian

    kangaruffian TS Rookie Posts: 175

    Hmm do u have losta background task/ programs runnin on desktop? and i woudnt say ur laptop is lower specs AMD is real power house what becames gaming..
     
  13. kangaruffian

    kangaruffian TS Rookie Posts: 175

    and get another 512ram it helps too and if u have norton antivirus on that desktop get rid off it that is a real resource hog
     
  14. kangaruffian

    kangaruffian TS Rookie Posts: 175

    turn off unnessecery programs, defrag your harddrive that will helps a bit
     
  15. altheman

    altheman TS Rookie Topic Starter Posts: 425

    I had Norton, but i've "upgraded" to Avast ;). I've been planning on getting some more ram, but i havent got any spare $$ :( . I've cleaned up background processes, and turned off xtra services, and i defragged my hd a couple of days ago.

    on averge, i have 30-37 processes running at any1 time. I've noticed GTA aint too bad, but for FC, when im in a firefight, it'll freeze for about half a second, and be back to normal. I run both games at the same resolution as my monitor (1280x11sumink), GTA has all settings at High, but FC has been tweaked a bit. I get about 60fps on FC, but i'll drop when it freezes.
     
  16. N3051M

    N3051M TS Evangelist Posts: 2,115

    kangaruffian, please use the edit function if possible..
     
  17. kangaruffian

    kangaruffian TS Rookie Posts: 175

    yup..sorry
     
  18. Nodsu

    Nodsu TS Rookie Posts: 5,837   +6

    Sigh.. Could you please point out the place in that Wikipedia article where it says that LCD monitors don't have a refresh rate.. I kind of missed it. The article may look different in your fluffy universe of course.

    The image on a LCD is updated periodically. One might say the refresh happens n times in a second. Usually, the measure used to tell how often something happens is called a "rate". Things may be different in your universe of course.

    The fact that the refresh rate of a LCD is not important for an end user does not make in nonexistent. And the fact that the LCD image is updated only so often means that even if your computer is generating a lot more frames per second, you can not see it. Of course, if people in your universe have supernatural abilities, then you have my sincere apologies.
     
  19. kangaruffian

    kangaruffian TS Rookie Posts: 175

    Sigh Sigh.. u must be real pissed..dont be .. How ever In a Cathode-Ray Tube, an electron beam scans one line that moves very quickly onto the panel,,(see picture on wikipedia
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refresh_rate) example 85 times/sec.. refresrate is 85Hz agree?
    Our eyes or brains trick us to think theres is whole image

    Lcd draws whole image allways in onetime; so where is the refresrate?
    there is nothin to refresh , no scannin beam



    i cant proof it to u but if u take same high speed camera and same setting snap the picture of LCD panel u see the whole image there; not just one line, like a CRTs

    Now lets talk about response time: how rapidly diodes (lcd) can be turned on and off again. This rapidity is known as the response time.

    People who bought first lcd monitors response time was so slow (25-100ms) that they saw ghosting/blurring in fast moving objects. classic example, moving black mouse cursor
    on white background and u can see ghosth of that cursor on slow lcd monitor


    sorry but it s hard to explain it cause my englis is so bad


    yours very truly Kangaruffian
     
  20. altheman

    altheman TS Rookie Topic Starter Posts: 425

    It seems like this thread is gonna become a flame war between Nodsu and Kangaruffian. Can both of you stop and get back to the topic pls:)
     
  21. N3051M

    N3051M TS Evangelist Posts: 2,115

    ok.. how bout we put it this way.. refresh rate = response time.

    Both are interchangeable and can be compared for each other, they just refer to different technology. Even if LCDs only changes pixels every so often, that pixel is in actual fact being "refreshed" by the incoming signal from the video card to the decoder on the monitor, which compares the differences and who-ha. that is what Nodsu is trying to say.

    Science/Maths 101: Hz = Cycles per seconds. MS = milliseconds = 1000th of a second.

    Although that math faq doesnt apply to this conversion, its somehow relevant, only that there are comparable figures for both. A LCD runing on 12ms with 500-800:1 contrast would be approxamately comparable a crt with a 60-70Hz refresh rate.

    I have both a crt and a LCD setup on dual screen right now, but if i set up for clone mode, my samsung LCD which is 14ms using its optimum settings is still as nice and smooth as the crt next to it, which is runing at 60Hz on the video card adaptor settings (it can take up to 75Hz).

    Back to the topic of the thread, and to sumerise the thread:
    As nodsu stated, LCD has nothing to do with the FPS. The only effect you'll see using such a "slow" LCD would only be bluring when you move too fast, or ghosting as well.

    For games to work at its optimum, the video card must have enough power to run it, the PSU must be able to support the power consumption on all components used while playing the game, the processor must be able to numbercrunch as fast as you play.

    the desktop pc looks good, however since you have dual channel ram available, have you considered getting two matching 512mb sticks (the fastest ones your motherboard can support)? 1gb will give you some improvement on your gameplay, especialy with having multiple background apps as well. Dual core is even faster, but i think the P4 should be enough.

    Do some maintainance:
    - Clean your pc of dust to improve air flow and temperatures
    - defrag and chkdsk /f your hard drive
    - scan for any warez and virii
    - clean up your un-needed startup processes
    - run windows update, and driver updates, especialy your video card.

    then try playing GTA.. :D
    N30
     
  22. altheman

    altheman TS Rookie Topic Starter Posts: 425

    i do need to get a new psu, the one i have atm is a generic one, but i needed one quickly and urgently which is why i bought it.

    as for the ram, im not working atm so ive not got enough spare ££ to buy what i would like, and i've done all the maintainance stuff. i might buy a whole new system soon, so im not planning on buying ram now.
     
  23. kangaruffian

    kangaruffian TS Rookie Posts: 175

    Bravo! N3051M

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  24. N3051M

    N3051M TS Evangelist Posts: 2,115

    512mb would be enough for now i guess, as most decent games can put up with. Just that 1gb would give things more liberty. But hey, money talks... :D

    Use a PSU calculator to determine what you need:
    http://www.extreme.outervision.com/psucalculator.jsp
    then add another 50w or more for headroom. Power is only a problem if the system taxes too much from it, and the other components dont have enough juice to do anything.

    I'm pretty sure by now you'd heard what dangers generic PSU's have on the PC compared to one thats well known, like Antec, Enermax, Coolermaster etc. as well as what happens to over-taxed PSU's..

    Every machine is different, so maybe its the psu that needs fixing, maybe its the ram i dont garuntee for everything, just helpfull tips where possible :). But one rule that applies to all PCs and such is that your pc can only run as fast as the slowest component.

    EDIT: Ahh.. thank you Kanga :) couldn't let a very usefull thread degrade into a pointless flame war so i had to do something :D
     
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