Can Zen return AMD to its former glory?

[CaptainTom]

Well, five bucks is five bucks. But the numbers I ran don't suggest that is the actuality of the situation. Keep in mind, the numbers I ran, were for an obscene amount of gaming. So, the truth is, the answer is likely more than 5 dollars, but somewhat less than the 46 I came up with.

In all this excitement, what everybody seems to have forgotten is that AMD's, "bang for the buck", was coming largely from obsolete (?) processes, and from already bought and paid for fabs. (fell free the fact check that). So, when you figure in the cost of the equipment necessary to grow chips at perhaps 14nm or less, those savings from buying AMD could very well, to a large extent,. evaporate.

And like I keep repeating, but you people keep failing to comprehend, the extreme gaming community is but a drop in the CPU purchase dollar bucket. All Intel is doing is back and forth R & D, turning Zeon core breakthroughs into desktop CPUs.

Every car maker at one point or another has had a racing programs. At some point in the 60's or 70's, Pontiac said, "screw it, we're not going to spend all this money on promotion", and dropped out. Well, they still lasted more than another half century, and I honestly don't think not being involver with NASCAR, was the company's death knell anyway. More than likely, too many other companies made more appealing. But here in 2016, those big, powerful, i7 desktop chips, are the, "race car for computer nerds", and not a whole heck of a lot more than that...

OH, and BTW, this "tool" has his electric bill sitting not 20 feet away, in case you feel like asking me any stupid questions.

LOL dude don't unpack your baggage on me. I said HE was a tool, not you lol. You actually bothered to admit that at most you would save $10 - $20 a year.

Not sure what you are trying to say with your car analogy. If you look at my posts it's pretty obvious I think Intel is continuing to push the envelope, so don't give me the whole "Apex Hyper-Car" analogy because I already believe in it. Furthermore I OBVIOUSLY understand that AMD's recent cheapness came from using bargain-bin 32 and 28nm processes.

But on that Hyper-car analogy. AMD has a 32-core Uber-Zen coming called "Naples". Intel's Skylake-E Xeon will be 28-Core, and recent leaks show a 95w Zen 8-Core beating Intel's 140w 8-core Broadwell-E. Don't kid yourself, AMD is gunning big this time.

 

[captaincranky]

Just an FYI

The enterprise i7 chips are Xeon not Zeon

Yeah well, phonetically it's "Zeon"...

My proofreading certainly isn't what it was before I was old and senile, I'll give you that...

 

[captaincranky]

...[ ]...But on that Hyper-car analogy. AMD has a 32-core Uber-Zen coming called "Naples". Intel's Skylake-E Xeon will be 28-Core, and recent leaks show a 95w Zen 8-Core beating Intel's 140w 8-core Broadwell-E. Don't kid yourself, AMD is gunning big this time.

Well first, I bet when you've been here as long as I have, you'll have plenty of baggage to unload as well...

But more importantly, perhaps Zen will be AMD's big triumphal comeback. Keep in mind though, I do believe they had to hock their offices to facilitate it....And they didn't exactly "move on up to the east side" either.

 

[bluto 2050]

Bought an Intel CPU not a long time ago and now you're telling me AMD is gonna make me regret my purchase? Bloody hell.

Well Junior, regret comes from within one's self. Nobody can "make" you feel it. Well, perhaps maybe the judicial system can, but only if they really decide to put their minds to it...

I've had a fair amount of AMD custom PC's and built some starting with an AMD 486DX 2 /66 and the K6 166+ and K6 2 233+ and K6 2 450 MHz PR+ phony ratings .

You may know the K6 and K6 2 never matched a P5 Pentium or Pentium II or overclocked Celeron A's we all liked way better than those AMD's overall anyway

AMD socket 7 and super 7 were significantly inexpensive to an Intel as likewise the socket 7 and super 7 main boards for them were and better that not having either one and weren't bad at CPU integer math despite the weak FP .so outside of gaming ,rendering or decent video they were plausible at that time but not real entertaining beyond Quake or Doom or some lightweight role play gaming .

The K6/K62 FP units were always real weak and lousy gamers until the K7 slot A Athlon's which I skipped .

Then I had a Pentium 4 - 3.0 Ghz that was not all that compared to a Pentium III ,then a core Duo 3.0 GHZ that ran rings around the P4. In hindsight an AMD 64 x2 was probably much better than P4 .

I sold that Core Duo and got a 4 core Athlon II x4 and then a 6 core AMD that both handily beat the Core Duo .

OTOH the Athlon II x2 and II x4 and 3.0 Core Duo and quad weren't bad and are still plausible today performance wise for everyday computing .

I have an off lease Dell Optiplex 780 Intel Core Duo 3.0 cheap $65.00 ebay auction score in another bedroom room now and seldom used because the Core i7 HP elite book is in there and used

The brand new Core i5 HP 550-150 is in here with added in SSD and decent sound from the fried main board 6 yr old AMD 6 core but those old dogs run windows 10 fine just not like the faster Core x Intel's here .


I have two Intel second and 3rd gen Core i7 and again just this week replaced an AMD 6 core with a new Core i5 PC

for the new PC I reconfigured the SSD for UFEI out of the 6 core AMD and put it in my brand new Haswell Core i5 PC for a dual boot windows 10 drive for the daily grind along with the sound card that sounds way better out to my amplified devices than the Realtec chip when I'm not using S/PDIF . .

Setting street price arguments aside I'm convinced *at this time Intel is the better product and will likely remain so for the foreseeable future .

I'll forgive anyone that mistakenly thinks I have anthing against Intel or AMD
at this point in time as long as they arent naive,rude and stupid about all this

This Haswell Core i5 makes my 6 core AMD look slow and it wasn't bad but not even close at the screen or in single thread which is still very important. and everybody knows a decent Core i5 will out game just about anthing from AMD .

This i5 PC is not game box but the significantly older than this PC - S.B. Core i7 desktop here is a gamer and still very plausible at 1080p ultra all day with its new d/GPU and the new games but thats another conversion '


My uneducated guess is the new AMD wont hold a crown over Intel for long if it ever does but it may be entirely plausible at the right price for a legitimate broad market alternative to Intel and that may be a good thing ☺.

 

[CortyDK]

Ooookay this thread has gone waay out of proportion. I think this is a case of "agreeing to disagree"

Can we agree on the following 4 points:

1. AMD has its share of followers
2. Intel has it share of followers

3. Some care about their electricity bill
4. Some do not care about their electricity bill

If we can agree on those 4 points, then I really think this thread has shown our differences. So, lets be happy about that. I mean, if we all bought exactly the same cpu, mobo, ram aso, there world be no evolution and competition in the market. A sort of North-Korean state of things.

So, let's be happy to differ (y)

 

[bluto 2050]

Well, five bucks is five bucks. But the numbers I ran don't suggest that is the actuality of the situation. Keep in mind, the numbers I ran, were for an obscene amount of gaming. So, the truth is, the answer is likely more than 5 dollars, but somewhat less than the 46 I came up with.

In all this excitement, what everybody seems to have forgotten is that AMD's, "bang for the buck", was coming largely from obsolete (?) processes, and from already bought and paid for fabs. (fell free the fact check that). So, when you figure in the cost of the equipment necessary to grow chips at perhaps 14nm or less, those savings from buying AMD could very well, to a large extent,. evaporate.

And like I keep repeating, but you people keep failing to comprehend, the extreme gaming community is but a drop in the CPU purchase dollar bucket. All Intel is doing is back and forth R & D, turning Zeon core breakthroughs into desktop CPUs.

Every car maker at one point or another has had a racing programs. At some point in the 60's or 70's, Pontiac said, "screw it, we're not going to spend all this money on promotion", and dropped out. Well, they still lasted more than another half century, and I honestly don't think not being involver with NASCAR, was the company's death knell anyway. More than likely, too many other companies made more appealing. But here in 2016, those big, powerful, i7 desktop chips, are the, "race car for computer nerds", and not a whole heck of a lot more than that...

OH, and BTW, this "tool" has his electric bill sitting not 20 feet away, in case you feel like asking me any stupid questions.

LOL dude don't unpack your baggage on me. I said HE was a tool, not you lol. You actually bothered to admit that at most you would save $10 - $20 a year.




Not sure what you are trying to say with your car analogy. If you look at my posts it's pretty obvious I think Intel is continuing to push the envelope, so don't give me the whole "Apex Hyper-Car" analogy because I already believe in it. Furthermore I OBVIOUSLY understand that AMD's recent cheapness came from using bargain-bin 32 and 28nm processes.

But on that Hyper-car analogy. AMD has a 32-core Uber-Zen coming called "Naples". Intel's Skylake-E Xeon will be 28-Core, and recent leaks show a 95w Zen 8-Core beating Intel's 140w 8-core Broadwell-E. Don't kid yourself, AMD is gunning big this time.

Outside of some very demanding uses or hires video production mixing and transcending , hires rendering , professional workstations ,hires gaming with multiple ultimate gaming d/GPU and those kind of configurations the high end core i7 and Xenon's are irrelevant to average office and every day computing PC's or a casual game build or small business management and operations that could just as well be an Intel Core i3 or a multi core AMD APU/CPU something .

We will have to stay tuned to see where the AMD Zen products fits into all that .


Keeping in mind recent history that AMD has never made a clock for clock reliable core for core I/O CPU to Intel for a good while if they ever did dating back to the AMD 486 -DX2/66 , ............

Is anybody taking odds that AMD ZEN wont get the crown from Intel or if they do ofc. course Intel won't let them have it for long if at all and Intel might be coy and not tipping all thier hands right now anyway .

Lets not kid ourselves AMD curiously wasn't using a 6 gen Intel part in this comparison either and given thier pre release over-hype history and maybe under-clocking one or the other and so and so on ..................

Don't mistake all this as a bias to Intel other than the fact they are the significantly better product now by almost any measurement aside from integrated APU graphics and (maybe ) a few street prices for plausible but not usually better performance and thier mainbord platforms are pretty much EOL anyway or should have been a long time ago .

That being said the AMD Zen may be entirely plausible either way at the right price as broad market Intel alternative like the Slot A Athlons and Athlon 64 x II were and maybe some of the AMD Phenom II x4 and II x6 before the Intel Sandy Bridge Core I x cleaned thier clock and Intel never looked back .


TBH this Haswell Core i5 is just as snappy on everyday computing as the S.B. Core i7 here all day with both on metal windows 10 and often this newer gen i5 sifnificantly faster on SSD Windows 10 in here outside of Hires gaming this PC cant do in Haswell Intel HD 4600 graphics anyway.

This Haswell i5 in the new daily grinder is a newer generation on a windows 10 SSD or windowws 10 metal than the SB i7 l but it ain't slow either way for what I do .

In all fairness The SB core i7 here is on metal windows 10 . I can imagine it would be significantly faster than it is on an SSD and that may happen but CPU boss says the two CPU are too close to call and the overall score is nearly identical to the Haswell Core i5 within one tenth of one point . .

My uneducated guess ......I think instead of arguing what we don't know yet about the AMD Zen products we should just get out the popcorn and stay tuned ☺

 

[bluto 2050]

[QUOTE="bluto ] reply to self [/QUOTE]

I forgot to add Intel is not desperate for a flagship consumer/pro sumer or other product line , down market they can just configure and move some Xenons on down to the broad market Core i7 product and re brand them like they have before .

 

[captaincranky]

Ooookay this thread has gone waay out of proportion. I think this is a case of "agreeing to disagree"

Can we agree on the following 4 points:

1. AMD has its share of followers
2. Intel has it share of followers

3. Some care about their electricity bill
4. Some do not care about their electricity bill

If we can agree on those 4 points, then I really think this thread has shown our differences. So, lets be happy about that. I mean, if we all bought exactly the same cpu, mobo, ram aso, there world be no evolution and competition in the market. A sort of North-Korean state of things.

So, let's be happy to differ (y)

Well, the one point all this misses, is that some people like to argue, myself among them.

Another thing to consider, were we at Harvard, this would be practice for the "debating team". Also please note, that "debating teams" are comprised mostly, or perhaps solely, of people who like to argue.

 

[cliffordcooley]

Also please note, that "debating teams" are comprised mostly, or perhaps solely, of people who like to argue.

And now a days diversity means the debates will be a certainty.

 

[captaincranky]

And now a days diversity means the debates will be a certainty.

"Nowadays" is one word, so there...

EDIT: IIRC, "diversity" is a debate all its own....

 

[captaincranky]

...[ ]...Then I had a Pentium 4 - 3.0 Ghz that was not all that compared to a Pentium III ,then a core Duo 3.0 GHZ that ran rings around the P4. In hindsight an AMD 64 x2 was probably much better than P4 ..

Yes, the P-4s did suck, big time. So did the dual core space heaters "whatevertheyrecalled", 930, 940, 950's ?), which were released right after them. But that's the point where the AMD chips became "legendary", or "achieved cult status", however you want to describe that. And a lot of the residual "love" for AMD has its foundations in that period, more than a decade ago.

Every time I've tried to evaluate what reviews and benchmarks are telling me, is that Intel's chips are better for getting real world tasks accomplished, and that AMD's chips get better FPS scores on 3 out of 10 current games.

That's cool and all, but it doesn't seem like it should stir up all this controversy.

The whole "Zen" thing makes a couple of salient points. First, AMD has run out of memorable or even familiar names of construction vehicles to tag their chips with. Second, but more importantly, Zen better be all that their claiming it will be, or it will be the end of AMD.

 

[bluto 2050]

Yes, the P-4s did suck, big time. So did the dual core space heaters "whatevertheyrecalled", 930, 940, 950's ?), which were released right after them. But that's the point where the AMD chips became "legendary", or "achieved cult status", however you want to describe that. And a lot of the residual "love" for AMD has its foundations in that period, more than a decade ago.

Every time I've tried to evaluate what reviews and benchmarks are telling me, is that Intel's chips are better for getting real world tasks accomplished, and that AMD's chips get better FPS scores on 3 out of 10 current games.

That's cool and all, but it doesn't seem like it should stir up all this controversy.

The whole "Zen" thing makes a couple of salient points. First, AMD has run out of memorable or even familiar names of construction vehicles to tag their chips with. Second, but more importantly, Zen better be all that their claiming it will be, or it will be the end of AMD.

You may be right about Zen being all that or else and the controversy it's clear to see which are the better CPU on the broad market since way back.

. AMD doesn't have many or any plausible alternatives to Intel on the desktop or decent Mobiles right now outside of maybe some low budget destop APU's and notebook APU and thier flagship CPU and maybe some others down market *all by themselves can use more power than a lot of good performing OEM Intel CPU PC desktop PC's doing the same work using the Intel Pentium and Core x and Intel HD xxxx IGPU .

Maybe if it weren't for the game console custom APU business and Radeon /AMD they might be gone now ,they haven't shown anthing much since the plausible AMD Phenom II x4 and II x6 until Intel Kicked Sand in thier face's with the Sandy Bridge Core X and SB Pentiums and never looked back .

I'm always skeptical of the AMD hype. I got burned more than once with all that before .
I'm firmly in the Intel camp here now instead of AMD with 3 other Intel PC's here and this new Haswell Core i5 destop now that just replaced my aging Phenom II x6 box that was still plausible on the lower mid level performance now.
That PC flamed a main board about 2 wks. ago . I may fix it and do something with it but wont be here .

This 83w 4 core Haswell Core i5 in my 1 wk. new HP PC tower put's that Phenon II x6 to bed as one would expect given its age and probably a new 125 w 6 core AMD FX 6350 or the 8 core FX 8350 to bed *if you go by CPU boss scores and it often takes 2 AMD cores to work like one Intel core anyway .

For now I'm paying the Intel tax just like I pay the usual Sony XBR tax on my TV's like the new 4K Sony XBR HDR set in here . The 4 Intel Core x CPU PC's here are fine for now and the foreseeable future and don't heat the rooms .This Core i5 averages 33° -36 °c and that old AMD II x6 I had would average 57°-59° c both with maybe 8-9 usual Chrome web pages open ☺☺

CPU Boss image :
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...92159933961.1073741827.100005695419618&type=3

 

[milostuvic]

To many unknowns before its released. But if its price / performance turns out to be good (or at lesat as advertised) it will be my next upgrade (from a sandy bridge i3). The way things looks now and intel Kaby Lake comming soon I dont think amd will catch up but we'll have to see.