2011, DO you beleive it?
- Thread starter akaivan
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howard_hopkinso
Posts: 21,238 +17
I have no idea what you`re talking about.
However, instead of making a second post in this thread because you forgot something. You should`ve used the edit button.
Regards Howard
However, instead of making a second post in this thread because you forgot something. You should`ve used the edit button.
Regards Howard
olefarte
Posts: 1,314 +13
As I've never heard of him, you got my curiosity up. Googled, read a few lines from several different reports, and stopped. I didn't read enough to find out what 2011 brings, but I can guess. Can't say I follow his beliefs. How about you?
And I wonder how this relates to TS.
And I wonder how this relates to TS.
Peddant
Posts: 1,403 +0
Just to "enlighten" you Howard, so to speakhoward_hopkinso said:
- "Harold Camping is the founder and president of Family Radio (Family Stations, Inc.)
He wants all Christians to leave their churches and trust Family Radio to be the vehicle through which the gospel of his fictitious, man-made god, Je-Zeus Christ is preached to the whole world. You can guess where Camping thinks you should send all your money to. His style is unmistakably unique, he speaks slowly with a distinctive voice and cadence that people tend to believe whatever he says." HERE
howard_hopkinso
Posts: 21,238 +17
Ah I see now.
Thanks for the info Peddant, it`s appreciated mate.
Regards Howard :wave: :wave:
Thanks for the info Peddant, it`s appreciated mate.
Regards Howard :wave: :wave:
akaivan
Posts: 422 +0
Peddant said:Just to "enlighten" you Howard, so to speak
"Harold Camping is the founder and president of Family Radio (Family Stations, Inc.)
He wants all Christians to leave their churches and trust Family Radio to be the vehicle through which the gospel of his fictitious, man-made god, Je-Zeus Christ is preached to the whole world. You can guess where Camping thinks you should send all your money to. His style is unmistakably unique, he speaks slowly with a distinctive voice and cadence that people tend to believe whatever he says." HERE
? I dont really listen to him on radio but my family does. I went to one of these dinners with him there and the rest of family radio staff. BUt he had some really good Facts and versus of the bible that supports it really well. THe bible says the church age ends in 1991. Some mathematical equasion. But the best way to learn about it is to read it for my self...
akaivan
Posts: 422 +0
btw, i met him in person, Hes no joke. The angelfire page is false. Hes bin a volounteer. And now his books are free, from all the supporters. I support him 100% But its just my oppinion. Just wondering if there was anyone out there that listens to it. But what you see in churches now is almost fake. Have you ever watched b.e.t on sunday at 12. am? Watch it and you will know what im talking about.
CrossFire851
Posts: 714 +0
Well I beleve in god, and I think you will all agree on this one with me... The bible has been translated and misconceived over centuries. I not to sure that he would have such a blunt name like God athough it does make sense. This is common sense if you think about it.
But there is diffently a god or "GOD" for that matter.
Beliving in such nonsense, wouldn't it be a sin that could damn you to hell you're *****?
This is a type of Athetism.
This form may need to be closed if the topic goes into religous views before it gets out of hand, and please explain what's going to happen in 2011.
Also are computers will save use from extinction and then a latter we will have a huge battle.
Machine vs Humman
Since hummans aren't perfect then nether can machines making them flawed.
Who will win
LOL it sounds like a movie/game catch frase
© All rights Reserved 2006
But there is diffently a god or "GOD" for that matter.
Beliving in such nonsense, wouldn't it be a sin that could damn you to hell you're *****?
This is a type of Athetism.
This form may need to be closed if the topic goes into religous views before it gets out of hand, and please explain what's going to happen in 2011.
Also are computers will save use from extinction and then a latter we will have a huge battle.
Machine vs Humman
Since hummans aren't perfect then nether can machines making them flawed.
Who will win
LOL it sounds like a movie/game catch frase
© All rights Reserved 2006
CrossFire851
Posts: 714 +0
akaivan to youre previous post I have no clue what you're agreeing on and what you're getting at.
Instead of wasting invaluable time please explain what you mean?
Instead of wasting invaluable time please explain what you mean?
I'm not (though I am deeply spiritual)
The thing is, religion can be talked about without having to resort to arguments and flames. In fact, I have INCREDIBLE disrespect for anybody who pushes their reigion down other peoples throats as gospel (if you'll excuse the unintended pun).
What a lot of people fail to accept is that while something is completely true to them and absolutely irrefutable, it is still only THEIR belief. Other people believe other things and are perfectly entitled to do so, and (for a devout and extreme evalangical christian example, for the sake of familiarity) no amount of "you'll burn in hell you sinner", "I hate you you blasphemer", or "You should convert to my ways because the bible says..." is ever going to make that otherwise, or convert those that truly believe in something else.
Personally I see religion as a mountain, where divinity sits at the top. Each path taken up the montain to reach divinity is profoundly personal, and is up to the choice of the individual. Depending on which part of the mountain you've chosen to be on, what you see around you and the perspective view of what's up on the top will be different, but no one path is any less valid than another. The importance is in the journey, not nessecarily the destination.
As such, I see no reason why reasonable people should be unable to discuss a religious issue, or a religion itself, provided that it's done objectively and with respect for others and their beliefs.
Of course, not everyone is reasonable, but the ones that aren't won't be posting in this thread, because if they do it'll either be deleted or the thread closed.
Personally, while I don't know what this 2011 thing is, I do believe that 2012 will be precisely 48 minutes before 2100.
Edit: Yes, by the way. God does have a name (the judeo-christian one). Unfortunately though, It's not supposed to be said by christians or jews alike, as dictated in the Old Testament. However, not being christian myself, I have no problems with saying that he is called IHVH (the holy tetragrammaton). It's actually the name of god that Jehova comes from - because it was considered sinful to say or write the name of God, the letters of his name were interspersed with the vowels of the word "adhonai" (meaning "My Lord") and the resultant word was YaHoWaH (pronounced Jehova). Sadly though, because it was forbidden for so long to say the name of God, Very few people (if anybody) know how his name was originally pronounced.
Last thing I heared, God's historic origins in this world were as a little known mountain god (before the fall of babylon, the Isrealites blieved that every god belonged to a specific place).
The following page offers more information if you would like it... http://www.pantheon.org/articles/y/yahweh.html
(though I am deeply spiritual)The thing is, religion can be talked about without having to resort to arguments and flames. In fact, I have INCREDIBLE disrespect for anybody who pushes their reigion down other peoples throats as gospel (if you'll excuse the unintended pun).
What a lot of people fail to accept is that while something is completely true to them and absolutely irrefutable, it is still only THEIR belief. Other people believe other things and are perfectly entitled to do so, and (for a devout and extreme evalangical christian example, for the sake of familiarity) no amount of "you'll burn in hell you sinner", "I hate you you blasphemer", or "You should convert to my ways because the bible says..." is ever going to make that otherwise, or convert those that truly believe in something else.
Personally I see religion as a mountain, where divinity sits at the top. Each path taken up the montain to reach divinity is profoundly personal, and is up to the choice of the individual. Depending on which part of the mountain you've chosen to be on, what you see around you and the perspective view of what's up on the top will be different, but no one path is any less valid than another. The importance is in the journey, not nessecarily the destination.
As such, I see no reason why reasonable people should be unable to discuss a religious issue, or a religion itself, provided that it's done objectively and with respect for others and their beliefs.
Of course, not everyone is reasonable, but the ones that aren't won't be posting in this thread, because if they do it'll either be deleted or the thread closed.
Personally, while I don't know what this 2011 thing is, I do believe that 2012 will be precisely 48 minutes before 2100.
Edit: Yes, by the way. God does have a name (the judeo-christian one). Unfortunately though, It's not supposed to be said by christians or jews alike, as dictated in the Old Testament. However, not being christian myself, I have no problems with saying that he is called IHVH (the holy tetragrammaton). It's actually the name of god that Jehova comes from - because it was considered sinful to say or write the name of God, the letters of his name were interspersed with the vowels of the word "adhonai" (meaning "My Lord") and the resultant word was YaHoWaH (pronounced Jehova). Sadly though, because it was forbidden for so long to say the name of God, Very few people (if anybody) know how his name was originally pronounced.
Last thing I heared, God's historic origins in this world were as a little known mountain god (before the fall of babylon, the Isrealites blieved that every god belonged to a specific place).
The following page offers more information if you would like it... http://www.pantheon.org/articles/y/yahweh.html
akaivan
Posts: 422 +0
Spike said:I'm not
The thing is, religion can be talked about without having to resort to arguments and flames. In fact, I have INCREDIBLE disrespect for anybody who pushes their reigion down other peoples throats as gospel (if you'll excuse the unintended pun).
What a lot of people fail to accept is that while something is completely true to them and absolutely irrefutable, it is still only THEIR belief. Other people believe other things and are perfectly entitled to do so, and (for a devout and extreme evalangical christian example, for the sake of familiarity) no amount of "you'll burn in hell you sinner", "I hate you you blasphemer", or "You should convert to my ways because the bible says..." is ever going to make that otherwise, or convert those that truly believe in something else.
Personally I see religion as a mountain, where divinity sits at the top. Each path taken up the montain to reach divinity is profoundly personal, and is up to the choice of the individual. Depending on which part of the mountain you've chosen to be on, what you see around you and the perspective view of what's up on the top will be different, but no one path is any less valid than another. The importance is in the journey, not nessecarily the destination.
As such, I see no reason why reasonable people should be unable to discuss a religious issue, or a religion itself, provided that it's done objectively and with respect for others and their beliefs.
Of course, not everyone is reasonable, but the ones that aren't won't be posting in this thread, because if they do it'll either be deleted or the thread closed.
Personally, while I don't know what this 2011 thing is, .
Edit: Yes, by the way. God does have a name (the judeo-christian one). Unfortunately though, It's not supposed to be said by christians or jews alike, as dictated in the Old Testament. However, not being christian myself, I have no problems with saying that he is Yahweh, or IHVH (the holy tetragrammaton). It's actually the name of god that Jehova comes from - because it was considered sinful to say or write the name of God, the letters of his name were interspersed with other letters (though I can't remember what the other leters were about) and the resultant word was Jehova. Sadly though, because it was forbidden for so long to say the name, nobody knows how his name was originally pronounced
Last thing I heared, God's historic origins in this world were as a little known mountain god (before the fall of babylon, the Isrealites blieved that every god belonged to a specific place).
The following page offers more information if you would like it... http://www.pantheon.org/articles/y/yahweh.html
OO yea i strongly agree spike.But please fill me in about the mayan thing on 2012, and you said "I do believe that 2012 will be precisely 48 minutes before 2100" I Dont understand it lol. And i really like how you put it as a mountain. MAkes things really clear.
No problem. My thing I said about 2012 being 48 minutes before 2100 was just a play/pun on the 24 hour clock. lolAs for 2012, it's quite an extensive subject, and one that I'm no expert in.
However, the basics of it are simply that the Mayans had a calendar - see here - they were very very advanced astrologers, and based on what they saw in the skies they developed and used a complicated (yet incredibly simple) caledar that has prooved very very accurate, but for some reason abruptly ends at what we know (on astronomical calculation - so the date is indeed certain
) to abruptly end on the 21st December (the winter solstice) of 2012, which also coincides with the Maya prophesy of the end of the fourth (or fifth, I can't remember) civilisation.There are many theoretical reasons for it, and astronomically, a quite sensible one is Here.
As for the mayan prophecies, it's rather like Nostrodamus in that people make assumptions which fit. Evidence does seem to show certain events throughout History to fit very very accurately (but not conclusively) though, and as such it's nowhere near as cryptic as nostrodamus. Basically, people have jumped at the maya calendar (which does suggest that the fourth age will end in some manner of catastrophy) to mean the end of the world. period.
See this page for a very indepth explanation/piece of research on the subject of maya prophecies (if written by someone most of us, including myself, may consider to be a little "out there".) One of 9 pages.
Personally, I do believe that there is some truth in the Mayan calendar in that respect, but I don't believe it's the end of the world. I believe it's a shift change in civilisation of some sort (and thus, it's the end of the world as we know it (Hey, REM could become uber popular again - that would be a catastrophy!!!). Incidentally, it coincides with the end of the Age of Pisces, and the start of the Age of Aquarius (which is also the end of the "church age, as cited by the link you posted).
I rather think that his whole 2011 thing is a bit of a misnomer and fraud really, as I suspect that what he's done is to take little bits and pieces of mythology, astrology, and history that he doesn't understand and com up with his very own "end of the world" theory based on them.
The world at the moment though is indeed going through VERY rapid changes of various kinds though, so really speaking, who knows? More to the point, why should it matter? There's not a lot any of us can do about it, and as it's all a bit of an unknown, we should all carry on being true to ourselves and take whatever might ever happen when it comes.
paranoid guy
Posts: 408 +0
That is an absolutely brilliant philosophy Spike. Tell me where to send the donations :haha:
I got one too. I think the whole world is just a test, and it strikes me as an odd coincidence that a lot of religions are based on worshipping one "god" to give it a name. I reckon it's the same "god" in all the religions, the stories just got messed up along the way. I don't like the idea of someone telling you what to believe though, so I don't like the Catholic Church. Anyway, it seems to make more sense to most of us to do good things rather than bad, and it's been said for so long that it must have a basis somewhere, the old saying "no smoke without fire". I think that success in this life is measured a lot differently than success in the next, that success in the next will be detirmined by how many good deeds you did in this life, and that something much more important and better is waiting. In fact this (to me) is something good to think about when I get too involved/concerned in day to day stuff, it's actually great to sit back and think about how irrelevant and insignificant this all may be, and just laugh your head off about how you're so worried about stupid things. And the good deeds thing doesn't mean you have to stop world hunger, you just do what you can.
Oh and techspot counts 'cause you're helping people in your free time.
Spike you've probably racked up about a million points and as for Howardhopkinson, he's probably on jesus levels :haha:
I got one too. I think the whole world is just a test, and it strikes me as an odd coincidence that a lot of religions are based on worshipping one "god" to give it a name. I reckon it's the same "god" in all the religions, the stories just got messed up along the way. I don't like the idea of someone telling you what to believe though, so I don't like the Catholic Church. Anyway, it seems to make more sense to most of us to do good things rather than bad, and it's been said for so long that it must have a basis somewhere, the old saying "no smoke without fire". I think that success in this life is measured a lot differently than success in the next, that success in the next will be detirmined by how many good deeds you did in this life, and that something much more important and better is waiting. In fact this (to me) is something good to think about when I get too involved/concerned in day to day stuff, it's actually great to sit back and think about how irrelevant and insignificant this all may be, and just laugh your head off about how you're so worried about stupid things. And the good deeds thing doesn't mean you have to stop world hunger, you just do what you can.
Oh and techspot counts 'cause you're helping people in your free time.
Spike you've probably racked up about a million points and as for Howardhopkinson, he's probably on jesus levels :haha:
Vigilante
Posts: 1,634 +0
Another religion thread? Maybe TS should make a religion forum? Why not? Maybe, as pointed out by Spike, the heat can build to unholy temperatures
[NOTE: I wrote this and it was to big, so the second half is in the next thread, I didn't mean to write so much, it happens to me ]
I'm also Christian, as some may know. I made the mistake of actually poking around the "Christian" forum at myspace! Of all places! By george, just mention you are Christian and they will rip your head right off in every way possible!
Makes me wonder why Christianity is the most hated religion? But then again, Jesus taught that the world would treat it that way.
On another note, this guy, this Harold, never heard of him or listened to a show. The guy in the article who is "debunking" him is full of garbage, and so is a few philosophies of Camping. Namely, that "everybody should leave churches...", what?? "Trust in his program..." WHAT??? And what the heck is "Je-Zeus"?
If he is adamant about the Bible he would read the part about "do not forsake the gathering of the saints" etc... Gathering together, corporate worship if you will, is a big part of the Christian life. That is scary stuff he's talking about, setting HIMSELF up as the ultimate authority. And his ministry.
But then the other guy, supposedly debunking him, has his own facts screwed up. He lauds the Britannica, saying "Encyclopedia Britannica has a reputation to uphold, so what they print in their Encyclopedias, has to be factual." What? Well I have a reputation too, so I guess that means everything I say is right?
I'm sorry but man simply knows SQUAT about anything in the old age because nobody was there! Think about things such as "cavemen" or "missing links". Think about science and their so called evolutionary finds. For example, when someone digs up a tooth, and they draw a picture around a tooth of an ape man?? It's been done. Taking an ape skull and putting in on top of a mans skeleton. Every other scheme and hoax imaginable to prove their "facts" about origins.
He talks about how most people groups have a "flood story". Well yes that's true, because AFTER Noah as people spread out, and more specifically at the Tower of Babel when people of each language spread out, THAT flood story spread through the ages, changing here and there. Noah's flood wasn't invented based on some "older" story. Noah's flood is what really happened, and the story changed throughout time. Even in Asian languages, for example, the symbol for "flood" or something similar, looks like the shape of the Arc, etc... Arc-like cave drawings and more.
There are tons of historical information to prove biblical stories. This guy seems to think that because his library book written by Joe Shmoe with his PHD means that HE must be right. In other words, as long as you can find a book whose "facts" differ from the Bible, the Bible must be wrong?
And Joe Shmoe must be right because his teacher told him so. His teacher must be right because he is a teacher after all. And he was there to see how it happened? Nobody saw what happened. The people who did, the people who lived so very close to those times, happened to pen the Bible. It's the oldest real history book we have. So when some scientists find some scratches in a cave, or a bone in the dirt, suddenly they know precisely how a whole economy worked and exactly what happened on every day of the year?
I'm sorry but the Bible gives the only account of history from people who nearly lived in that age, who could have sat down and talked with the people IN those stories.
When I see such an attitude from people like Harold Camping, I see danger, I see someone trying to take the place of the Bible and Jesus. When I see the likes of the debunker, I see a big fat hot head full of pride and arrogance. Some people seem to think that every so called "fact" they dig up, as long as it is different from the Bible, must be correct. But all the science that agrees with the Bible, of which there is hoards, must be false; and never reaches page 90 of a science magazine. But they promptly display in full color on the front page, an ape man drawn entirely based off a single foot bone found in the dirt and say the "missing link is here!" We know for FACT that certain ape-men were hoaxes, yet you still find pictures of them in school text books, still talking about them as fact, even though they've been exposed long before!
Anyway fellas, I've seen nonsense from both sides of the fence. It's sad because most people are completely ignorant of the Christian faith, and a lot of professing Christians do/say stupid things too. Somebody saying they are Christian, falls into sin in some way, and suddenly ALL of Christianity gets blamed, "so THIS is what being a Christian is all about?!?". Well no, of course nobody is perfect, and Christians fall under just as much pressure, temptation, and so forth that everybody else does. The difference is, through the power of the Holy Spirit, we have a way to fight it and refuse to sin, a gaol to live for. But most well-known Christian speakers on the radio could tell you how sinful they were before getting saved, and many sins they fell into afterward as well. But Christian life is like Spike's mountain analogy, only REACHING the mountain is the point of being saved, climbing the mountain is your Christian walk toward Christ, toward knowledge, righteousness, holiness etc... Difference is, Christ is the top, it is not an unknown destination to a believer.
Christians happen to believe that God exists in three persons. And that God is Holy and CANNOT be in the company of sin, EVER. You sin once, you are departed from Him forever, Hell. If you are sinless, you can enter into His presence. See, to a Christian, going to Heaven is not a "works" based function, it's not relative. "Well, your life was better then so-and-so, I'll let you in. And so-and-so, you really did do better then thus-and-such, so I'll let you in too". Nothing doing. If you are sinless, you can enter God's domain.
That makes simple sense right? A perfect God cannot keep company with sin. You break His perfect law, you are far removed forever. Like a very strict "real" law of today. "You kill somebody, you go to jail". The death sentence. We have laws, God has laws. If you break God's law, you are out, no second chances, no relativity, no "if I'm pretty good I'm in. If I help so many old ladies cross the street, I'm in". That is not the Christian life. It's not about doing good things, following a bunch of rules etc...
The core of the Christian gospel is laid out in the Bible. ALL are sinners, ALL, if you were conceived in the womb, you are a sinner worthy of hell. Simple, you inherit the sin of Adam right down through your parents. You are not acceptable to God in that state. You have broken His law.
So, in order to save some people from this fate, Jesus, born of a virgin, lived that sinless life and died a sacrifice for our sins. I'm sure most are well aware of the sacrificing of the old testament? The Bible says "without blood there is no remission of sins". Jesus was the ultimate blood sacrifice, paying for the sins of the world, not just some guy in the OT sacrificing for himself. The sacrifice of Jesus was sufficient for all who would believe.
This is taught in the Biblical history, the basis of Christianity. So in order to be covered by Jesus' blood, you must, as you've probably heard "offered" on the radio a million times, "the prayer". The basic idea is surrender your life to Christ. You have to acknowledge this work, acknowledge Christ as Lord and savior, turn from your sin, ask for forgiveness, ask for Christ in your life, etc...
Now you see why it is extremely important to believe in a virgin birth. If Jesus was born of a man, He would have inherited sin the same as all of us. And if so, He would NOT have had a sinless life. He MUST have been born a virgin or else He could not be the ultimate sacrifice. This is why it is a grave mistake for a Christian to doubt the virgin birth. If Christ was not born of a virgin, then pretty much the entire Christian faith crumbles because Christ was not sinless, was not a perfect sacrifice. And we're wasting our time.
God didn't send Jesus to die a gruesome death so you could follow after some false god or teacher all your life (a different path), but ultimately end up at His feet in the end. No, it is stated that NONE come to the father except through Jesus. And many more scriptures to this end. God said He is a jealous God, and does not accept people worshiping their own gods, or idols. His first law penned to mankind said plainly "have NO other gods before Me". And promptly said "make NO graven image", such as idols etc... And I think everybody can agree, so many religions have SO many idols, imagery, symbolism etc... For example, nobody knows what Christ looks like, nobody. He isn't some brown hair, brown eyed candy faced guy. Nobody knows. Nobody knows because God didn't want people to make images and idols of him to worship. Which is why you get Christians fighting among themselves over movies such as The Passion, simply because it puts a face to Jesus, and there are some that say it shouldn't be done. Look how Christians turn to symbolism anyway, things like crosses and the fish symbol etc.. And the Catholics who depict Christ STILL dying on the cross. Which is against Christianity because He is NOT on the cross any more, he rose from the dead etc... In other words, the cross is empty now, but they want to keep Him there, so some say.
[continued in next thread...]
[NOTE: I wrote this and it was to big, so the second half is in the next thread, I didn't mean to write so much, it happens to me
]I'm also Christian, as some may know. I made the mistake of actually poking around the "Christian" forum at myspace! Of all places! By george, just mention you are Christian and they will rip your head right off in every way possible!
Makes me wonder why Christianity is the most hated religion? But then again, Jesus taught that the world would treat it that way.
On another note, this guy, this Harold, never heard of him or listened to a show. The guy in the article who is "debunking" him is full of garbage, and so is a few philosophies of Camping. Namely, that "everybody should leave churches...", what?? "Trust in his program..." WHAT??? And what the heck is "Je-Zeus"?
If he is adamant about the Bible he would read the part about "do not forsake the gathering of the saints" etc... Gathering together, corporate worship if you will, is a big part of the Christian life. That is scary stuff he's talking about, setting HIMSELF up as the ultimate authority. And his ministry.
But then the other guy, supposedly debunking him, has his own facts screwed up. He lauds the Britannica, saying "Encyclopedia Britannica has a reputation to uphold, so what they print in their Encyclopedias, has to be factual." What? Well I have a reputation too, so I guess that means everything I say is right?
I'm sorry but man simply knows SQUAT about anything in the old age because nobody was there! Think about things such as "cavemen" or "missing links". Think about science and their so called evolutionary finds. For example, when someone digs up a tooth, and they draw a picture around a tooth of an ape man?? It's been done. Taking an ape skull and putting in on top of a mans skeleton. Every other scheme and hoax imaginable to prove their "facts" about origins.
He talks about how most people groups have a "flood story". Well yes that's true, because AFTER Noah as people spread out, and more specifically at the Tower of Babel when people of each language spread out, THAT flood story spread through the ages, changing here and there. Noah's flood wasn't invented based on some "older" story. Noah's flood is what really happened, and the story changed throughout time. Even in Asian languages, for example, the symbol for "flood" or something similar, looks like the shape of the Arc, etc... Arc-like cave drawings and more.
There are tons of historical information to prove biblical stories. This guy seems to think that because his library book written by Joe Shmoe with his PHD means that HE must be right. In other words, as long as you can find a book whose "facts" differ from the Bible, the Bible must be wrong?
And Joe Shmoe must be right because his teacher told him so. His teacher must be right because he is a teacher after all. And he was there to see how it happened? Nobody saw what happened. The people who did, the people who lived so very close to those times, happened to pen the Bible. It's the oldest real history book we have. So when some scientists find some scratches in a cave, or a bone in the dirt, suddenly they know precisely how a whole economy worked and exactly what happened on every day of the year?
I'm sorry but the Bible gives the only account of history from people who nearly lived in that age, who could have sat down and talked with the people IN those stories.
When I see such an attitude from people like Harold Camping, I see danger, I see someone trying to take the place of the Bible and Jesus. When I see the likes of the debunker, I see a big fat hot head full of pride and arrogance. Some people seem to think that every so called "fact" they dig up, as long as it is different from the Bible, must be correct. But all the science that agrees with the Bible, of which there is hoards, must be false; and never reaches page 90 of a science magazine. But they promptly display in full color on the front page, an ape man drawn entirely based off a single foot bone found in the dirt and say the "missing link is here!" We know for FACT that certain ape-men were hoaxes, yet you still find pictures of them in school text books, still talking about them as fact, even though they've been exposed long before!
Anyway fellas, I've seen nonsense from both sides of the fence. It's sad because most people are completely ignorant of the Christian faith, and a lot of professing Christians do/say stupid things too. Somebody saying they are Christian, falls into sin in some way, and suddenly ALL of Christianity gets blamed, "so THIS is what being a Christian is all about?!?". Well no, of course nobody is perfect, and Christians fall under just as much pressure, temptation, and so forth that everybody else does. The difference is, through the power of the Holy Spirit, we have a way to fight it and refuse to sin, a gaol to live for. But most well-known Christian speakers on the radio could tell you how sinful they were before getting saved, and many sins they fell into afterward as well. But Christian life is like Spike's mountain analogy, only REACHING the mountain is the point of being saved, climbing the mountain is your Christian walk toward Christ, toward knowledge, righteousness, holiness etc... Difference is, Christ is the top, it is not an unknown destination to a believer.
Christians happen to believe that God exists in three persons. And that God is Holy and CANNOT be in the company of sin, EVER. You sin once, you are departed from Him forever, Hell. If you are sinless, you can enter into His presence. See, to a Christian, going to Heaven is not a "works" based function, it's not relative. "Well, your life was better then so-and-so, I'll let you in. And so-and-so, you really did do better then thus-and-such, so I'll let you in too". Nothing doing. If you are sinless, you can enter God's domain.
That makes simple sense right? A perfect God cannot keep company with sin. You break His perfect law, you are far removed forever. Like a very strict "real" law of today. "You kill somebody, you go to jail". The death sentence. We have laws, God has laws. If you break God's law, you are out, no second chances, no relativity, no "if I'm pretty good I'm in. If I help so many old ladies cross the street, I'm in". That is not the Christian life. It's not about doing good things, following a bunch of rules etc...
The core of the Christian gospel is laid out in the Bible. ALL are sinners, ALL, if you were conceived in the womb, you are a sinner worthy of hell. Simple, you inherit the sin of Adam right down through your parents. You are not acceptable to God in that state. You have broken His law.
So, in order to save some people from this fate, Jesus, born of a virgin, lived that sinless life and died a sacrifice for our sins. I'm sure most are well aware of the sacrificing of the old testament? The Bible says "without blood there is no remission of sins". Jesus was the ultimate blood sacrifice, paying for the sins of the world, not just some guy in the OT sacrificing for himself. The sacrifice of Jesus was sufficient for all who would believe.
This is taught in the Biblical history, the basis of Christianity. So in order to be covered by Jesus' blood, you must, as you've probably heard "offered" on the radio a million times, "the prayer". The basic idea is surrender your life to Christ. You have to acknowledge this work, acknowledge Christ as Lord and savior, turn from your sin, ask for forgiveness, ask for Christ in your life, etc...
Now you see why it is extremely important to believe in a virgin birth. If Jesus was born of a man, He would have inherited sin the same as all of us. And if so, He would NOT have had a sinless life. He MUST have been born a virgin or else He could not be the ultimate sacrifice. This is why it is a grave mistake for a Christian to doubt the virgin birth. If Christ was not born of a virgin, then pretty much the entire Christian faith crumbles because Christ was not sinless, was not a perfect sacrifice. And we're wasting our time.
God didn't send Jesus to die a gruesome death so you could follow after some false god or teacher all your life (a different path), but ultimately end up at His feet in the end. No, it is stated that NONE come to the father except through Jesus. And many more scriptures to this end. God said He is a jealous God, and does not accept people worshiping their own gods, or idols. His first law penned to mankind said plainly "have NO other gods before Me". And promptly said "make NO graven image", such as idols etc... And I think everybody can agree, so many religions have SO many idols, imagery, symbolism etc... For example, nobody knows what Christ looks like, nobody. He isn't some brown hair, brown eyed candy faced guy. Nobody knows. Nobody knows because God didn't want people to make images and idols of him to worship. Which is why you get Christians fighting among themselves over movies such as The Passion, simply because it puts a face to Jesus, and there are some that say it shouldn't be done. Look how Christians turn to symbolism anyway, things like crosses and the fish symbol etc.. And the Catholics who depict Christ STILL dying on the cross. Which is against Christianity because He is NOT on the cross any more, he rose from the dead etc... In other words, the cross is empty now, but they want to keep Him there, so some say.
[continued in next thread...]
Vigilante
Posts: 1,634 +0
[continued from previous thread...]
Oh boy fellas, this is long! But I guess that is because I've been sitting here with nothing else to do!
Don't think I'm forcing "my religion down your throat", I'm not speaking to anybody. I'm just making a statement about what I believe, like everybody else here is doing. And wanted to say a few things about Christianity. Because SO often, I read somebody who will say "Christians do this...", but in reality, that has nothing to do with Christianity, it has to do with what some guy or girl did. That's all. And what they did goes against what the Bible teaches, therefore it is NOT a Christian act. I don't like to see people think up some random thing that some random Christian did, and then pin his mistake or sin on all of Christianity. Just because a Christian does a certain thing, does NOT mean that this certain thing is a Christian act!
Because Christianity is not the worst faith. But I'll tell you what it IS. It DOES have very strict rules in terms of saving faith. You can't just meander around and end up in heaven, it is laid out plainly what must be done. Second, it is not a religion of rules. Christianity has moral law, namely, how to live with other humans. Simply, how one should be in society. And those laws never hurt anybody who practiced them. There is NO RITUALS that MUST be done to be a Christian, none at all! The only thing that Christ asked that we do, are things like baptism and communion. But they are not requirements. You can get saved in jail, and die in there, and go to heaven. But what you DO have to do, is put your faith in Christ that He is God and lived a sinless life to die a sacrifice for OUR sins. Obviously this command is very hard for people and understandably so. Because pride keeps any human from submitting themselves to another's rule. Keeps them from asking for forgiveness. Keeps them from humbling themselves, falling on their face etc...
I understand why Christianity faces such opposition from the world. Simply because it says there is ONE WAY to heaven, ONE WAY to God. Jesus said in John 14:6, "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."
Pretty strong words for Jesus to say! But that is the stuff a Christian believes. He believes that Christ indeed is Lord. And not just a good teacher of old. There have been good teachers throughout the ages, but none have placed themselves equal with God like Jesus did, NONE. They wouldn't dare. But Jesus backed everything up with healings and miracles and His life and teaching etc... and of course, by His own life fulfilling the prophecies of the OT. And of course, rising from the dead and much more.
The problem is, people can't believe it anymore. They can't believe it because they don't have the evidence, they don't have the proof, they can't see it or touch it so therefore it isn't real. When a Christian says something like "the Bible is accurate, just look at all the prophecies made and fulfilled in the text!". The scoffer says, ya well, obviously the author wrote the prophecy down, then "fulfilled it" when he wrote the next page. They think it was all just written by a guy in a few months. But the Bible really, just by studying its history, has so many awesome things about it, it really is trustworthy material. A book, heavily copied and preserved through thousands of years, is more reliable then the best guess of a guy who found some symbols carved in a cave. At least I think so. If the Bible were a bunch of fairy tales and lies, why in the WORLD would it still be around today? In those days it could take a scribe a year to copy the text, why would somebody waste a year of there life carefully copying a bunch of nonsense? Why would men write down fairy tales and then live their life by it and die for it? Why would a billion billion people through time put their life in its hands and die for it? Live for it? People get their heads chopped off for not denying Christ is Lord. If it's such a falsehood, why would it have such a following? Because it's not lies and fairy tales? Because it is true history? Call me what you like, but I believe it.
I believe we must look at the world through "biblical glasses". You can understand what is going on when you look at it with that perspective. You don't have to form a thesis about it or find somebody with a PHD. When looking at it through the Bible's eyes, you see what's going on. You don't have to run to the library and get the latest "book of facts", you don't have to open the trusty Britannica.
A simple example of this concept is languages of the world. Why try to come up with theories about that? The Tower of Babel answers it. What about marriage? We know where that came from. A seven day week? Six days work, one day rest? How come there are layers in the Grand Canyon? How about the flood? The flood answers a thousand questions about our fossil records. No need to invent stories about a tiny river flowing for a billion million years to create the Canyon. Reminds me of a story, a believer and a non-believer were marveling at the Canyon and the non said "amazing, a little water and a lot of time did that!" and the believer said "amazing, a lot of water and little time did that!".
It's all about your perspective I guess, and a good Christian aught to have a biblical perspective. If they start to doubt the Bible, begin to lean on man's understanding instead of the Bible, they aren't being very Christian! For example, on origins, the most attacked biblical story of all is creation. Supposedly it is so factual that billions of years created everything, that even believers are getting sucked into it, and then forcing millions of years into the Bible (such as gap theory). They take man's ideas and try to shove them into the Bible, it doesn't work. The Bible teaches six literal days of creation, the genealogies teach that the earth is about 6000-7000 years old or thereabouts. You either have faith in the words of God, or have faith in man. Both require faith. Because I have yet to see any evidence for evolution or millions of years. You can't just take their "facts" at face value. Just because they have a title, a PHD, doesn't mean every word is the gospel truth. There are no reliable dating methods, there are no "missing links", there are no fossil records, there is nothing to prove it. It is all still theory. But to the average person, they accept what National Geographic says, because they read it there in clever words that appeal to them.
Just like the Grand Canyon, the SAME "evidence" can both "prove" the Bible, AND "prove" the theory being presented. It's a choice of which to believe. A Christian must have faith in the Bible. If they can't do that, they don't have much faith do they
The Bible's words can be twisted, of course they can, Satan himself twisted its words when he was tempting Christ. The Bible's words have been used to validate all kinds of intensely horrid actions through time, everything from crusades-like activities to burning people. People can grab some words, out of context, and apply them to something totally different. Which is why one should never "read" the Bible, but instead, STUDY it! Practice it! Endeavor to be "more like Christ". That should be the Christian way. In my understanding.
[continued next thread... sorry]
Oh boy fellas, this is long! But I guess that is because I've been sitting here with nothing else to do!
Don't think I'm forcing "my religion down your throat", I'm not speaking to anybody. I'm just making a statement about what I believe, like everybody else here is doing. And wanted to say a few things about Christianity. Because SO often, I read somebody who will say "Christians do this...", but in reality, that has nothing to do with Christianity, it has to do with what some guy or girl did. That's all. And what they did goes against what the Bible teaches, therefore it is NOT a Christian act. I don't like to see people think up some random thing that some random Christian did, and then pin his mistake or sin on all of Christianity. Just because a Christian does a certain thing, does NOT mean that this certain thing is a Christian act!
Because Christianity is not the worst faith. But I'll tell you what it IS. It DOES have very strict rules in terms of saving faith. You can't just meander around and end up in heaven, it is laid out plainly what must be done. Second, it is not a religion of rules. Christianity has moral law, namely, how to live with other humans. Simply, how one should be in society. And those laws never hurt anybody who practiced them. There is NO RITUALS that MUST be done to be a Christian, none at all! The only thing that Christ asked that we do, are things like baptism and communion. But they are not requirements. You can get saved in jail, and die in there, and go to heaven. But what you DO have to do, is put your faith in Christ that He is God and lived a sinless life to die a sacrifice for OUR sins. Obviously this command is very hard for people and understandably so. Because pride keeps any human from submitting themselves to another's rule. Keeps them from asking for forgiveness. Keeps them from humbling themselves, falling on their face etc...
I understand why Christianity faces such opposition from the world. Simply because it says there is ONE WAY to heaven, ONE WAY to God. Jesus said in John 14:6, "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."
Pretty strong words for Jesus to say! But that is the stuff a Christian believes. He believes that Christ indeed is Lord. And not just a good teacher of old. There have been good teachers throughout the ages, but none have placed themselves equal with God like Jesus did, NONE. They wouldn't dare. But Jesus backed everything up with healings and miracles and His life and teaching etc... and of course, by His own life fulfilling the prophecies of the OT. And of course, rising from the dead and much more.
The problem is, people can't believe it anymore. They can't believe it because they don't have the evidence, they don't have the proof, they can't see it or touch it so therefore it isn't real. When a Christian says something like "the Bible is accurate, just look at all the prophecies made and fulfilled in the text!". The scoffer says, ya well, obviously the author wrote the prophecy down, then "fulfilled it" when he wrote the next page. They think it was all just written by a guy in a few months. But the Bible really, just by studying its history, has so many awesome things about it, it really is trustworthy material. A book, heavily copied and preserved through thousands of years, is more reliable then the best guess of a guy who found some symbols carved in a cave. At least I think so. If the Bible were a bunch of fairy tales and lies, why in the WORLD would it still be around today? In those days it could take a scribe a year to copy the text, why would somebody waste a year of there life carefully copying a bunch of nonsense? Why would men write down fairy tales and then live their life by it and die for it? Why would a billion billion people through time put their life in its hands and die for it? Live for it? People get their heads chopped off for not denying Christ is Lord. If it's such a falsehood, why would it have such a following? Because it's not lies and fairy tales? Because it is true history? Call me what you like, but I believe it.
I believe we must look at the world through "biblical glasses". You can understand what is going on when you look at it with that perspective. You don't have to form a thesis about it or find somebody with a PHD. When looking at it through the Bible's eyes, you see what's going on. You don't have to run to the library and get the latest "book of facts", you don't have to open the trusty Britannica.
A simple example of this concept is languages of the world. Why try to come up with theories about that? The Tower of Babel answers it. What about marriage? We know where that came from. A seven day week? Six days work, one day rest? How come there are layers in the Grand Canyon? How about the flood? The flood answers a thousand questions about our fossil records. No need to invent stories about a tiny river flowing for a billion million years to create the Canyon. Reminds me of a story, a believer and a non-believer were marveling at the Canyon and the non said "amazing, a little water and a lot of time did that!" and the believer said "amazing, a lot of water and little time did that!".
It's all about your perspective I guess, and a good Christian aught to have a biblical perspective. If they start to doubt the Bible, begin to lean on man's understanding instead of the Bible, they aren't being very Christian! For example, on origins, the most attacked biblical story of all is creation. Supposedly it is so factual that billions of years created everything, that even believers are getting sucked into it, and then forcing millions of years into the Bible (such as gap theory). They take man's ideas and try to shove them into the Bible, it doesn't work. The Bible teaches six literal days of creation, the genealogies teach that the earth is about 6000-7000 years old or thereabouts. You either have faith in the words of God, or have faith in man. Both require faith. Because I have yet to see any evidence for evolution or millions of years. You can't just take their "facts" at face value. Just because they have a title, a PHD, doesn't mean every word is the gospel truth. There are no reliable dating methods, there are no "missing links", there are no fossil records, there is nothing to prove it. It is all still theory. But to the average person, they accept what National Geographic says, because they read it there in clever words that appeal to them.
Just like the Grand Canyon, the SAME "evidence" can both "prove" the Bible, AND "prove" the theory being presented. It's a choice of which to believe. A Christian must have faith in the Bible. If they can't do that, they don't have much faith do they
The Bible's words can be twisted, of course they can, Satan himself twisted its words when he was tempting Christ. The Bible's words have been used to validate all kinds of intensely horrid actions through time, everything from crusades-like activities to burning people. People can grab some words, out of context, and apply them to something totally different. Which is why one should never "read" the Bible, but instead, STUDY it! Practice it! Endeavor to be "more like Christ". That should be the Christian way. In my understanding.
[continued next thread... sorry]
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