AMD axes Zen 3 support on 400-series motherboards: Is AMD pulling an Intel?

HardReset

Posts: 1,239   +897
Bold is literally the exact word for word sentence that Intel users were called "sheep" on these forums for uttering. "Times change" indeed... The majority of mainstream sales are B boards because most people don't need the X enthusiast features, and it's interesting how those who spent years lauding how popular & cheap the mainstream B350/B450's were in every single AMD vs Intel price comparison suddenly now flip 180 degrees on a dime and declare them "trash" and are now patronizingly telling people to either spend double on X570's they don't need, or that the "correct" Zen 2 chipset (B550) they "should" have bought is the one that didn't even exist for a whole year after the CPU it's "supposed" to be matched with launched...

Even if Zen3 does not go into B450 boards, users can still upgrade to 16-core Zen2. And Intel users? Well... So much for that price comparisons.

If those people don't need x570, then what is problem here? No enthusiastic features on x570 = no Zen3 compatibility. Just wanting Some enthusiastic features rarely work. And enthusiastic features unsurprisingly cost more. B550 is manufactured by ASMedia and it was supposed to be launched with Zen2. That didn't happened though.

No matter how you try and spin it, AMD should have had a proper B550 launch alongside the 3000's if they were going to cut B450 support artifically short, and not wait a whole year after then "bait & switch". That's still AMD's screw-up and mindless "AMD are never to blame for anything, ever" fanboyism is highly unconvincing.

Problem is that ASMedia makes B550, not AMD. So AMD cannot launch B550 until ASMedia has it ready.

I don't "miss" that, I just understand that cores vs performance don't scale indefinitely in games whilst better IPC / architecural enhancements do (ie, for the bulk of gaming, I'd rather have a 6-8x core chip with faster cores than a 16-core with slower ones). See the 1600/2600 getting beaten by the 3300X by a good +20% as to what counts more in actual practise vs hoping that the Magical Thread Fairy will cause all games over the next 3 years to be perfectly hand-optimized for 16C/32T chips when we all know that reality = the next 8 years worth of the usual cross-platform AAA games will absolutely be designed around and written for the new-gen 8-core consoles and ported to PC's as the usual consolized afterthought (something that all the 64-core ThreadRippers in the world won't fix)...

In that case, things are quite good for those who bought 6 or 8 core Zen2. They don't really need Zen3 upgrade for low thread applications. Basically those who want high core count, upgrade is already available. Those who want low core count, I highly doubt Zen3 will be so much better that upgrade from Zen2 is sensible. Again, not much problem here.

The problem here is that AMD marketing has over-promised and changed their tune. It's been highly implied that socket support through 2020 also meant chipset support through 2020. So people like myself with X470 motherboards paired with something like a 2700X considered the possibility of upgrading to a 4000 series processor after skipping out on the 3000 series processor.

Your chipset is over 3 years old already. So no wonder there is no support for CPU that is launched 2020. Remember: motherboard manufacturers don't get any money if they make Zen3 supporting BIOS'. So getting possibility to double core amount with big IPC gain is already much better you would expect.

People who got their boards in 2018, probably got their money's worth.
The main problem is with people who got their brand new B450 boards in 2020. MSI MAX series was released in late 2019, and you can't blame MSI, since B550 boards were still nowhere in sight. How do you justify that those people don't get to upgrade their CPUs, even if it's technically possible, and their boards are perfectly capable in terms of quality? If B550 boards were available since Zen 2 launch, people would get them and upgrade to Zen 3 later (or they won't, if there will be better alternatives). But B450 was the only available option, and it was heavily implyed that they WILL support Zen 3 (it's even directly written on MSI website). You can't even say it's MSI's fault, since I doubt they would mislead their customers on purpose. This seems like an internal communication problem, so AMD are totally responsible for it (even if MSI are probably also ones to blame).

Who buys 2017 chipset on 2020 and then complain about lack of support? MSI MAX series was released 2019 because MSI had problems supporting Zen2 with non-max series. Still, B450 is over 3 years old.

There were also x570 boards available. And as I already said, B550 is made by ASMedia, not AMD.

Not other manufacturers than MSI advertised Zen3 support so likely MSI just screwed up.

The above commenters are claiming the B450 buyers made a choice that didn't make sense, but really the main thing they have to back that is news of AMD not supporting B450 boards with the upcoming Zen 3 CPUs. But that is new information. There was no guidance from AMD about this 6 months ago.

X570 may have been a new release, but did not make sense for most people. Now if AMD had made it clear with the X570 release that Zen 3 CPUs would not work on B450, then some of those people that bought B450 probably would have instead bought X570. Or if there had existed a B550 chipset in a similar price range to B450 and most of AMD's other motherboard options, then of course people should have chosen B550 over B450.

Again, AMD planned to release B550 long time ago (same time Zen2 was released), but ASMedia still doesn't have that ready. That sucks, yes, but that's not AMD's fault. AMD have big problem since they probably still don't know when that B550 is really available.
 

hikingmike

Posts: 6   +6
Again, AMD planned to release B550 long time ago (same time Zen2 was released), but ASMedia still doesn't have that ready. That sucks, yes, but that's not AMD's fault. AMD have big problem since they probably still don't know when that B550 is really available.
I was ready to build when Zen 2 launched. That was exciting times and the CPUs were/are great. But I had to figure out what motherboard/chipset I wanted and that wasn't easy with the issues with both the new X570, and with Zen 2 on B450/X470 at the time. I had heard that B550 was planned. I'm sure that would have been the best fit for me, but it didn't exist and I didn't know when it would. So I did wait a bit to watch the situation. I ended up buying parts Sept 7 and building computers Sept 20. Good thing I didn't wait for B550 lol.
 

Aryassen

Posts: 168   +200
Even if Zen3 does not go into B450 boards, users can still upgrade to 16-core Zen2. And Intel users? Well... So much for that price comparisons.

If those people don't need x570, then what is problem here? No enthusiastic features on x570 = no Zen3 compatibility. Just wanting Some enthusiastic features rarely work. And enthusiastic features unsurprisingly cost more. B550 is manufactured by ASMedia and it was supposed to be launched with Zen2. That didn't happened though.



Problem is that ASMedia makes B550, not AMD. So AMD cannot launch B550 until ASMedia has it ready.



In that case, things are quite good for those who bought 6 or 8 core Zen2. They don't really need Zen3 upgrade for low thread applications. Basically those who want high core count, upgrade is already available. Those who want low core count, I highly doubt Zen3 will be so much better that upgrade from Zen2 is sensible. Again, not much problem here.



Your chipset is over 3 years old already. So no wonder there is no support for CPU that is launched 2020. Remember: motherboard manufacturers don't get any money if they make Zen3 supporting BIOS'. So getting possibility to double core amount with big IPC gain is already much better you would expect.



Who buys 2017 chipset on 2020 and then complain about lack of support? MSI MAX series was released 2019 because MSI had problems supporting Zen2 with non-max series. Still, B450 is over 3 years old.

There were also x570 boards available. And as I already said, B550 is made by ASMedia, not AMD.

Not other manufacturers than MSI advertised Zen3 support so likely MSI just screwed up.



Again, AMD planned to release B550 long time ago (same time Zen2 was released), but ASMedia still doesn't have that ready. That sucks, yes, but that's not AMD's fault. AMD have big problem since they probably still don't know when that B550 is really available.

Not to be overly picky, but both B450 and x470 were released in 2018, so they are not 3 years old, only 2 (and on this scale, that is a difference).

ASMedia doesn't make the chipsets, they design them (as they did with all other chipsets, for all Ryzen processors since their launch, apart from X570).

Also, when I bought my 3600 last July, the x570 was a novelty, with funny prices (the few available at launch averaged 200 quids here), and far from being perfect (or recommended, coming to that), while the B450/X470 range was merely a year old at that time (and a proven platfrom).

Lastly when you state that those of us who bought 6 or 8 core Zen2 processors wouldn't be much interested anyway in upgrading to Zen 3...well, that is just speculation. Your speculation. We don't know (I most certainly don't know). However, other speculations mention a healthy IPC increase (10-15%), along with higher clock speeds and lower power consumption, and these would certainly add up to a significant per-core increase in performance...if that is true, sure it would be nice to be part of it (without ripping the PC apart, that is)

(and yes, you are right: we are still in a much better position that guys rocking an Intel platform, as we at least have 12 and 16-core upgrade options...no question about that, and indeed that is my "plan B" if all else fails)
 
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wiyosaya

Posts: 6,390   +4,718
To Gigabyte's credit, any board with Q-flash plus does not need a cpu, memory, or graphics card to flash the bios
 

HardReset

Posts: 1,239   +897
Not to be overly picky, but both B450 and x470 were released in 2018, so they are not 3 years old, only 2 (and on this scale, that is a difference).

ASMedia doesn't make the chipsets, they design them (as they did with all other chipsets, for all Ryzen processors since their launch, apart from X570).

Also, when I bought my 3600 last July, the x570 was a novelty, with funny prices (the few available at launch averaged 200 quids here), and far from being perfect (or recommended, coming to that), while the B450/X470 range was merely a year old at that time (and a proven platfrom).

Lastly when you state that those of us who bought 6 or 8 core Zen2 processors wouldn't be much interested anyway in upgrading to Zen 3...well, that is just speculation. Your speculation. We don't know (I most certainly don't know). However, other speculations mention a healthy IPC increase (10-15%), along with higher clock speeds and lower power consumption, and these would certainly result a significant per-core increase in performance...if that is true, sure it would be nice to be part of it (without ripping the PC apart, that is)

(and yes, you are right: we are still in a much better position that guys rocking an Intel platform, as we at least have 12 and 6-core upgrade options...no question about that, and indeed that is my "plan B" if all else fails)

x370 and x470 are 100% same thing. Only difference is that "x470 chipset" boards supported Zen+ out of the box. Just renaming something does not make it any newer. Just like AMD launched "new" Radeon R9 280. That was exactly same chip that two year old Radeon 7950 used. Nothing wrong with that except R9 280 "age" was same as Radeon 7950 had.

That remains to be seen. x370/x470/B350/B450 chipsets were manufactured using 55nm TSMC node so AMD had not much actually making them. Basically it's like AMD "manufactured" it but basically ASMedia made everything and AMD just took responsibility. Remember that new WSA restricted AMD from using higher than 14nm nodes outside GlobalFoundries, so basically AMD couldn't directly manufacture those on TSMC.

As stated, x470 is just rename of x370, chipset that was outdated when it launched 2017. Only problem I agree was lack of B550 chipset but still, you are getting what you pay for. Support costs money.

I don't consider Zen3 to be so much better that upgrade is justified. I expect difference to be smaller than going from Zen1 to Zen2. That remains to be seen.
 

Aryassen

Posts: 168   +200
"x370 and x470 are 100% same thing. Only difference is that "x470 chipset" boards supported Zen+ out of the box "

I beg to differ. The improvements may be small, but they are there: the x470 had StoreMI, PBO, and higher speed official RAM support (2993 vs 2667 - not that it matter all that much). It also had far less memory compatibilty issues (whether or not this was a "chipset thing" or a "BIOS issue", the jury is still out), which was pivotal during my shopping last summer.
I agree that the difference between X370 and X470 would not justify an "upgrade", but I don't think we can call them the same or just a rebrand (for me, PBO actually is a feature I use every day)
 
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HardReset

Posts: 1,239   +897
"x370 and x470 are 100% same thing. Only difference is that "x470 chipset" boards supported Zen+ out of the box "

I beg to differ. The improvements may be small, but they are there: the x470 had StoreMI, PBO, and higher speed official RAM support (2993 vs 2667 - not that it matter all that much). It also had far less memory compatibilty issues (whether or not this was a "chipset thing" or a "BIOS issue", the jury is still out), which was pivotal during my shopping last summer.
I agree that the difference between X370 and X470 would not justify an "upgrade", but I don't think we can call them the same or just a rebrand (for me, PBO actually is a feature I use every day)

PBO and StoreMI works no problem with 300-series chipsets (at least B350 and X370), not sure about A320. RAM support is more BIOS or motherboard than chipset issue since chipset is not directly connected to RAM.

We can call them rebrand since they are exactly same chips. And so important PBO works with x370 too, just at least 2000-series Ryzen CPU is needed for that and also BIOS must support it. So basically 300-series = 400-series but 400-series is guaranteed to have BIOS support for certain things. For 300-series that depends on what motherboard manufacturers offers.
 
Were people actually thinking AMD could keep full compatibility forever?
They gave us 3 gens of CPU on 1 motherboard... get over it people and let the tech move forward.
 
Damn that sucks. I did exactly that, bought an X470 with a 2700x, skip the 3000 series and upgrade when the 4000 series came out. They really misled when they spoke about future AM4 support ??
 

Stark

Posts: 180   +172
This has royally screwed me over by AMD. I brought a B450 carbon pro and 2700x in December 2018 hoping to swap in Zen 3. Which I would not have if I had this information, but all evidence proves that AMD mislead on socket support. I could have easily waited for Zen 2 and a 5xx series motherboard which launched just 5months later.
Secondly they specifically delayed the launch of B550 series waiting till Intel launch, while maintaining that B450 was good enough till 2020.
So yeah thanks for the bait AMD, and am just tired of this kind of ****, if I remember this kind of happened with AM3 and AM3+ too.
 

Stark

Posts: 180   +172
Were people actually thinking AMD could keep full compatibility forever?
They gave us 3 gens of CPU on 1 motherboard... get over it people and let the tech move forward.
Question is not how many generations a socket supported, but rather how AMD mislead people into buying Motherboards which will be obsolete next generation while delaying the launch of newer series specifically waiting for Intel launch.
 

krizby

Posts: 429   +284
Question is not how many generations a socket supported, but rather how AMD mislead people into buying Motherboards which will be obsolete next generation while delaying the launch of newer series specifically waiting for Intel launch.

B450 boards cost like 100-110usd, X470 boards are like 150-200usd so not much investments lost there...a small price to pay for a polished next gen release. After all you are gonna sell the CPU you currently have before upgrading anyways, might as well sell the motherboard with it.
 

HardReset

Posts: 1,239   +897
Damn that sucks. I did exactly that, bought an X470 with a 2700x, skip the 3000 series and upgrade when the 4000 series came out. They really misled when they spoke about future AM4 support ??

Wrong understanding and misleading are different things.

This has royally screwed me over by AMD. I brought a B450 carbon pro and 2700x in December 2018 hoping to swap in Zen 3. Which I would not have if I had this information, but all evidence proves that AMD mislead on socket support. I could have easily waited for Zen 2 and a 5xx series motherboard which launched just 5months later.
Secondly they specifically delayed the launch of B550 series waiting till Intel launch, while maintaining that B450 was good enough till 2020.
So yeah thanks for the bait AMD, and am just tired of this kind of ****, if I remember this kind of happened with AM3 and AM3+ too.

We have been asking for that "evidence" or "proof" since this article was published, so post it please.

Once again, B550 launch is delayed because it's made by ASMedia not AMD. Looking how Intel still does not have PCIe 4.0 solution ready, it's not anything special ASMedia don't have either.

AM3 boards received beta support BIOS for AM3+ CPU''s so nothing to complain about there.

Question is not how many generations a socket supported, but rather how AMD mislead people into buying Motherboards which will be obsolete next generation while delaying the launch of newer series specifically waiting for Intel launch.

1. AMD didn't mislead at all, it's all your imagination.
2. AMD offered x570 board right when Zen2 was released.
3. Zen2 is huge upgrade from Zen+.
4. There was no intentional delay for B550.
 

Maxiking

Posts: 147   +166
Wrong understanding and misleading are different things.



We have been asking for that "evidence" or "proof" since this article was published, so post it please.

Once again, B550 launch is delayed because it's made by ASMedia not AMD. Looking how Intel still does not have PCIe 4.0 solution ready, it's not anything special ASMedia don't have either.

AM3 boards received beta support BIOS for AM3+ CPU''s so nothing to complain about there.



1. AMD didn't mislead at all, it's all your imagination.
2. AMD offered x570 board right when Zen2 was released.
3. Zen2 is huge upgrade from Zen+.
4. There was no intentional delay for B550.


AMD said AM4 will be supported till and through 2020 without being specific about chipset.


So, I will buy Zen3 and try to use with an am4 socket board as AMD stated.

The board uses an X470 socket.


OH, IT DOESN'T WORK.


The AMD statement is thus false and deceptive in this case.


They already tried to pull this trick with Zen2 when wanted to cut the 3xx and 4xx support for them but then AMD backtracked.


Now they won't. It doesn't matter how many times you skew their words, it doesn't matter how many times you will defend them, it doesn't matter how many times you will accuse others of imagining things, not being able to comprehend what amd said, you are still wrong and you will be still wrong.
 

BoboOOZ

Posts: 63   +54
Intel does this with every new chip practically and people are upset over AMD doing it FAR less?
This argument is like, if somebody punched you in the face last week and now I'm only slapping you, that would be supposed to make you happy...
 

HardReset

Posts: 1,239   +897
AMD said AM4 will be supported till and through 2020 without being specific about chipset.


So, I will buy Zen3 and try to use with an am4 socket board as AMD stated.

The board uses an X470 socket.


OH, IT DOESN'T WORK.

The AMD statement is thus false and deceptive in this case.

Difference between "AM4 is supported" and "all AM4 motherboards support all future processors" seems to be very unclear to you. AM4 is still supported and Zen3 will use AM4 socket. It's just that not all AM4 motherboards support all AM4 CPU's even if we leave out Zen2 out.

They already tried to pull this trick with Zen2 when wanted to cut the 3xx and 4xx support for them but then AMD backtracked.

Now they won't. It doesn't matter how many times you skew their words, it doesn't matter how many times you will defend them, it doesn't matter how many times you will accuse others of imagining things, not being able to comprehend what amd said, you are still wrong and you will be still wrong.

Looking how much crap was aimed towards motherboard manufacturers and AMD when Zen2 launched, it's surprising AMD did support Zen2 on old chipsets.

Because you imagine AMD said something AMD didn't say, I cannot be wrong here, sorry.
 

Alfatawi Mendel

Posts: 138   +221
:( I bought a B450 Tomahawk non-max on Black Friday and paired with a Ryzen 5 3600. It's sad to see my motherboard limiting me to only one generation of CPUs. Please AMD make a BIOS that drops support for first-gen and adds support for 4th gen. You could make several BIOS's depending on the generation of CPU.
Yep. I did the same as you...but did mine when x570 boards were for sale. I decided to cheapskate and get the same m/board as you. The extra £100 for x570 didn't make sense. I'm happy with my rig (despite no pcie 4.0) because it does everything I need it to. Next upgrade (might) be when ddr5 is widely available - The 5xxx series procs?
I never had any intention or expectation of dropping in a new 4xxx series chip, because that's how tech companies roll.
It's OK to skip a generation you know!
 

Lounds

Posts: 896   +796
The fact I can pair a 3950x with my Asus B350 Prime plus is pretty sweet. I never thought B350 would go any further in terms of support and B450 was very similar. I think to say X470 motherboards don't have support now that is bad.