GPU Availability and Pricing Update: August 2021

NightAntilli

Posts: 787   +994
I never said "something else". I said "currency". Presently, you can't buy *anything* with crypto except more crypto. Even Musk hedged on buying Tesla's with it to goose the market.
You can pay with Bitcoin on Newegg, for example. Here's a list;

I see 6 "checks" there. #1 Investors think it's risk-free (despite volatility as they are told it keeps going up.)
People's stupidity is not an argument against the asset itself.

You concede #3.
Not at all. In order to register with SEC, you have to be classified as a security. And the SEC itself doesn't qualify Bitcoin as a security.

On #4, I've yet to read ANYTHING that understandably explains how "mining" works (and the explanations I *have* read sound quite ridiculous.)
Let's reiterate point 4, for clarity.
  1. 4) Investment strategies that are secret or described as too complex to explain
  2. How mining works is not a secret, because Bitcoin's code is open source.
  3. Additionally, mining is not described as too complex to explain (I.e. a copout to hide what is really going on), but actually IS complex. But anyone that is actually interested CAN understand it, unlike in Ponzi Schemes.

#5, the entire point of crypto is its secrecy. No "paperwork".
No. The point of crypto is decentralization and cutting out the middle-man.

#6 brings me back to my original statement of how it's only value is when converted to another currency/dollars.
And that brings me back to the point that this applies to literally everything. Even your fiat currencies like the dollar and the euro.

If the entire crypto market were to tank, how do you recover your "investment"? If you compare this to investing in "Stock", then you prove my point of it not being "currency".
People in certain countries are actually using crypto as a payment system. Even if the market tanks compared to the dollar, the payment system will still simply exist. No need of going back to fiat. And ultimately, that's where we're headed.

Even though in the sense of investing, crypto can be compared to stocks, they are more than that, for the simple fact that they can be used for payments and stocks generally aren't. Just because cars and airplanes are both vehicles doesn't mean that airplanes can't fly.

Lol...

People think certain cyuptos aren't a scam. There is a reason why one of them has run-away prices.
How can a decentralized, free to participate (or not), free to use (or not) system without a hierarchical structure be a scam?
 

NightAntilli

Posts: 787   +994
Crypto is as much a ponzi scheme as FAIT currency is.
I'd argue that fiat is a much bigger ponzi scheme.

If we use the same six main aspects of ponzi schemes,

  1. A guaranteed promise of high returns with little risk
  2. A consistent flow of returns regardless of market conditions
  3. Investments that have not been registered with the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC)
  4. Investment strategies that are secret or described as too complex to explain
  5. Clients not allowed to view official paperwork for their investment
  6. Clients facing difficulties removing their money

Number 4, 5 and 6 are definitely the case for fiat. But there's a much bigger issue here...
But before that, we have to make a few things clear...

Money is a way to measure and save energy. You put energy into something that creates value, by doing work, putting in effort and making use of your time. To be able to save that produced value that costs time and energy, and determine how much value one truly brings, we use money. Now let's understand why fiat is a much bigger scam than crypto.

- With fiat, the government can print money whenever they want and however much they want. Why that is a problem you ask? Well... By printing, they are devaluing the money. That means that the work you have done and was paid for, is worth less after the additional money was printed. They literally stole your time and effort in that way.
- With fiat, you pretty much have no choice to not participate in it. There is always something that you have to pay in fiat to the government. With crypto, you're free to opt in or out of whichever one, whenever you wish.

I will always support mining, because despite that the majority can't see it, crypto is the way to break out of the financial slavery imposed by the elite. And there is nothing wrong with gaining value from mining.
 

m3tavision

Posts: 684   +450
You can pay with Bitcoin on Newegg, for example. Here's a list;


People's stupidity is not an argument against the asset itself.


Not at all. In order to register with SEC, you have to be classified as a security. And the SEC itself doesn't qualify Bitcoin as a security.


Let's reiterate point 4, for clarity.
  1. 4) Investment strategies that are secret or described as too complex to explain
  2. How mining works is not a secret, because Bitcoin's code is open source.
  3. Additionally, mining is not described as too complex to explain (I.e. a copout to hide what is really going on), but actually IS complex. But anyone that is actually interested CAN understand it, unlike in Ponzi Schemes.


No. The point of crypto is decentralization and cutting out the middle-man.


And that brings me back to the point that this applies to literally everything. Even your fiat currencies like the dollar and the euro.


People in certain countries are actually using crypto as a payment system. Even if the market tanks compared to the dollar, the payment system will still simply exist. No need of going back to fiat. And ultimately, that's where we're headed.

Even though in the sense of investing, crypto can be compared to stocks, they are more than that, for the simple fact that they can be used for payments and stocks generally aren't. Just because cars and airplanes are both vehicles doesn't mean that airplanes can't fly.


How can a decentralized, free to participate (or not), free to use (or not) system without a hierarchical structure be a scam?

Who is left holding the final coins, if (when) they are all traded in....?

They have ZERO value, until you trade them for tangible wealth. When banks realize they will be stuck with Billions in fake tokens.... they will stop supporting, or converting it.
 
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"Crypto-currency" is a Ponzi scheme, but I believe vcard developers have a financial stake is keeping it alive.

If the "mining" industry were to collapse, card prices would plummet (natch.) Great for consumers. Not so great for vcard developers.

Even when they've "pretended" to build-in bitcoin mining limitations into the hardware, someone always manages to "leak" a driver that circumvents those limitations.

Card production pricing and "mining" are in direct conflict with one another, and it should be illegal for card producers to profit off the fad/scam, but until "Crypto-currency" is outlawed globally, this problem isn't going away.

Not in 2022. Not ever.
I think that you dont understand what a ponzi scheme is. Crypto "cant" be such a scheme because of how its set up. Im ok with it, and understand it a lil, but admittedly only because of a lite understanding of fiat currency do I see how it could catch on. Remember virtually nobody has currency based on gold or other valued mineral anymore. Its all - basically - trust. So why not put a lil trust in currency whos creation is connected to the machines that rule the world anyway?

Not ponzi.
 
Concerning GPU availability, have you yet done an "updated" MSRP analysis? I feel that because of shortages and tariffs, the old MSRP's are no longer as valuable as when the cards came out. Inflation analysis? What would the MSRP be today of cards that came out before the pandemic if they were released today? Its just to understand a bit more realistically where the new prices fit considering that everything is more expensive today.

When we consider a $500 MSRP for a card that came out in Oct of 2020, we are comparing it to that price, that would be slightly to much more today. Do you think you could add another column "adjusted MSRP"? Maybe even post pandemic adjusted?

I believe you understand. Just trying to get a better idea as to where the increased cost is coming from. Scalpers wont get the extra cost but <unfortunately> tariffs and silicon price increases would. Levels understanding.
thx.
 

QuantumPhysics

Posts: 5,469   +6,266
"Crypto-currency" is a Ponzi scheme, but I believe vcard developers have a financial stake is keeping it alive.

If the "mining" industry were to collapse, card prices would plummet (natch.) Great for consumers. Not so great for vcard developers.

Even when they've "pretended" to build-in bitcoin mining limitations into the hardware, someone always manages to "leak" a driver that circumvents those limitations.

Card production pricing and "mining" are in direct conflict with one another, and it should be illegal for card producers to profit off the fad/scam, but until "Crypto-currency" is outlawed globally, this problem isn't going away.

Not in 2022. Not ever.


If the Crypto Miners were going after OLD video cards and using them (kinda like recycling their use), I wouldn't care. But not only are they creating a bad environment for PC gamers, but they are wasting huge amounts of energy resources.

If The governments decide tonight to crack down on crypto and criminalize it I would love it.
 

NightAntilli

Posts: 787   +994
If the Crypto Miners were going after OLD video cards and using them (kinda like recycling their use), I wouldn't care. But not only are they creating a bad environment for PC gamers, but they are wasting huge amounts of energy resources.

If The governments decide tonight to crack down on crypto and criminalize it I would love it.
The moment they crack down on it, they unintentionally give more incentive to use DEXs and privacy coins.

One often find one's destiny on the road taken to avoid it.
 

Axil00

Posts: 82   +96
Who is left holding the final coins, if (when) they are all traded in....?

They have ZERO value, until you trade them for tangible wealth. When banks realize they will be stuck with Billions in fake tokens.... they will stop supporting, or converting it.
You are literally describing any currency ever. Even a currency secured with gold may not always be, like the dollar.

With a bitcoin you can buy goods. Exchange it for another form of currency or save it.

It obviously isn't as widely accepted as government backed currency's but you have yet to find one criteria that makes cryptocurrency a ponzu scheme that cannot by applied to literally every other system of currency.

Bitcoin may not be a good investment or even a good currency but it's the most transparent investment that you can make. Its fully documented and follows programmed rules that are much harder to obscure or change than any other form of investment.

TLDR: not a ponzi scheme
 

NightAntilli

Posts: 787   +994
Bitcoin was out in 2009 and did nothing until 2017. Your entire statement is bogus. It's not "every" anything and, yes, this is new.
😑
Did nothing until 2017? Ok... Facts, from 2011 onwards;

2011 low: $2
2013 high: $1206
Increase: 62k+ %

2015 low (4 years after 2011): $162 (87% drop from previous high)
2017 high (4 years after 2013): $19800
Increase: 12k+% (more than 4x SMALLER than from 2011 to 2013)

Dec 2018 low (almost 4 years after 2015): $3125 (84% drop)
Now in 2021 (4 years after 2017): $64900 (1977%, which is why the bull run likely isn't over yet).

Bitcoin has done LESS over time, not more. Less people were into Bitcoin in the beginning, so the effects on graphics cards was smaller and it took less money to move the market a lot higher. The effects on PC hardware was still there, but it was too small for manufacturers to have to worry about it.
Then ASICs came out, meaning Bitcoin had a much smaller effect on graphics cards, and it wasn't until Ethereum in 2015 that the effect became much bigger on graphics cards.

We can expect that at its earliest, by the end of this year, and at its latest, by the end of next year, the 2nd hand market will be flooded with graphics cards.
 

m3tavision

Posts: 684   +450
You are literally describing any currency ever. Even a currency secured with gold may not always be, like the dollar.

With a bitcoin you can buy goods. Exchange it for another form of currency or save it.

It obviously isn't as widely accepted as government backed currency's but you have yet to find one criteria that makes cryptocurrency a ponzu scheme that cannot by applied to literally every other system of currency.

Bitcoin may not be a good investment or even a good currency but it's the most transparent investment that you can make. Its fully documented and follows programmed rules that are much harder to obscure or change than any other form of investment.

TLDR: not a ponzi scheme

No, I am not.

Bitcoin value is based on nothing, but shareholder manipulation. The more coins you own, the more you can manipulate it's value.

Secondly, and again.... when all the coins are turned in, who is stuck holding a worthless digital purse.


Lastly, Exchanges only rely on turning fake bitcoin, into real money. If you could NOT do that, then bitcoin would have very little value. Once people start cashing them in, Bank and other Institutions will not give credit to Bitcoin any more....


Thus is is a ponzi scheme.
 

NightAntilli

Posts: 787   +994
Bitcoin value is based on nothing, but shareholder manipulation. The more coins you own, the more you can manipulate it's value.
Just like any market.

Secondly, and again.... when all the coins are turned in, who is stuck holding a worthless digital purse.
"Turned in"? What do you mean "turned in"? Turned in to whom? There is no one to turn bitcoins to. There is only buying, selling and exchanging.

Lastly, Exchanges only rely on turning fake bitcoin, into real money. If you could NOT do that, then bitcoin would have very little value. Once people start cashing them in, Bank and other Institutions will not give credit to Bitcoin any more....
You're considering fiat to be real money, and bitcoin fake money? That's quite funny.
If you could not turn Bitcoin into fiat, someone would jump in to provide that service, because Bitcoin is in demand, not only as a speculative asset, but primarily as a store of value. It has outperformed every other asset out there, and if you think institutions don't take notice of that, you're simply mistaken.

And by the way, institutions don't use exchanges. They trade OTC. Bitcoin is the best form of money that has ever been invented. It will simply take a while to see it. Just wait till global hyperinflation hits, and you'll see how many will flock to crypto.

Thus is is a ponzi scheme.
Nothing you said is based on reality or fact. You have proven to have very little knowledge on the subject of money, economics, value, and markets, let alone crypto. So... Yeah. Your labels ponzi scheme labels don't mean much.

One of the primary characteristics of a ponzi scheme is that it's hard to get out. People can easily stop using Bitcoin and crypto at any point in time. That's the reason why the market floods with graphics cards when there is a large bear market. It can't be a Ponzi Scheme when everyone has an equal opportunity to not only participate, but withdraw participation at any given time.
 

Axil00

Posts: 82   +96
No, I am not.

Bitcoin value is based on nothing, but shareholder manipulation. The more coins you own, the more you can manipulate it's value.

Secondly, and again.... when all the coins are turned in, who is stuck holding a worthless digital purse.

Just like any market.

This pretty much covers it. My question is what attributes do you believe bitcoin has that make it a scam/ponzi scheme. That are not shared by for example the USD?
 

ddferrari

Posts: 534   +266
TechSpot Elite
Sooo... sticking with my 1080Ti EVGA Hybrid for now.

Still a nice GPU for 3440x1440p for now. Sad that I'm trying to buy an nVidia product now (RTX 3080) but I can't.

Their loss.
 

Burty117

Posts: 4,271   +2,357
Sooo... sticking with my 1080Ti EVGA Hybrid for now.

Still a nice GPU for 3440x1440p for now. Sad that I'm trying to buy an nVidia product now (RTX 3080) but I can't.

Their loss.
I'm in the exact same boat, watercooled 1080Ti @ 1440p and I would have upgraded to the 3080Ti had it been priced properly or if I could even get hold of one.

As you said, their loss.

It's also quite easy to be patient and wait for the 40 series since the 1080Ti still plays everything absolutely fine.
 

Neatfeatguy

Posts: 565   +993
I'm in the exact same boat, watercooled 1080Ti @ 1440p and I would have upgraded to the 3080Ti had it been priced properly or if I could even get hold of one.

As you said, their loss.

It's also quite easy to be patient and wait for the 40 series since the 1080Ti still plays everything absolutely fine.
EVGA has been pounding out the 3060 XC model cards, based on my visits to their Notification Queue on all the GPUs they offer that folks have signed up for.

The time stamps for the 3060 XC tends to take jumps of 10-36 hour chunks at a time, whereas any other card hardly moves more than a few seconds to maybe 60 minutes. For some reason EVGA seems to be just churning out 3060 cards like water, for their Notification Queue.

Either a strong push from Nvidia for 3060 chips has been in the works recently, or they're just the easiest ones to produce. Or maybe for some reason EVGA has been sitting on these chips for a while and have finally started to really push them out? I see very few 3070 and up cards going out on EVGA's list. They're sporadic, at best. The next closest follower to the 3060 is the LHR 3060Ti and this queue only goes up by (at most I've seen recently) 90 minutes.

It hasn't been looking good for the higher end GPUs.

MicroCenter stores, especially the Houston, Denver and Overland Park locations have been getting in decent amounts of 3060Ti cards. Just yesterday morning between these three stores there was reported (according to MC's websites) over 75 3060Ti cards in stock. By early afternoon there was less than 20 cards left between these stores. The 3070 and up models, only a couple of stragglers are reported between all the MC store locations. You have to be early at the stores for a chance to purchase a 3070 or up card, if they have any stock come in once or twice a week.

At MC you're best option for a GPU is a 6700XT (still reporting 400+ between all the stores) or a 6900XT (still reporting 300+ between all the stores). The 6600XT, 6800 and 6800XT are pretty scarce. Sadly, the 6700XT cards are still priced around $900 - which is $200+ more than a 3070/3070Ti (if you're lucky enough to get one) and $350-400 more than a 3060Ti. The 6900XT has seen a little price drop at MC, I see one model is priced at $1800 (was $2k). The high prices are still what keeps folks away from some of these AMD cards.
 

Ludak021

Posts: 578   +446
Why? Why wouldn't digital money companies support a legal scam?

I don't like Ponzi schemes, so Yes,"Governments should outlaw" things "I don't like". "Crypto-currency" has no value if it can't be exchanged for another currency. And the only way to profit off it is to find a bigger sucker willing to pay you more for your Bitcoins than you paid yourself.

THAT is the very definition of a Ponzi scheme.

and 24 trillion dollar national debt with 3 trillion GDP is not a scam. Right.
 

McMurdeR

Posts: 380   +376
Which is why I was always against any sort of limiter. You should be able to do what you wish with your hardware.

In the same vain, Nvidia could argue they should be able to sell their hardware in whatever configuration they wish. It is what it is.
 

ddferrari

Posts: 534   +266
TechSpot Elite
I'm in the exact same boat, watercooled 1080Ti @ 1440p and I would have upgraded to the 3080Ti had it been priced properly or if I could even get hold of one.

As you said, their loss.

It's also quite easy to be patient and wait for the 40 series since the 1080Ti still plays everything abTi solutely fine.
Burty, which 1080Ti do you have?
 

ddferrari

Posts: 534   +266
TechSpot Elite
Wow- you did hit the lottery! I'm maxing at 2025, but I haven't spent a ton of time on it. My memory is stable at +500 but the core clock can only handle +25. I think EVGA already maxed this chip out at the factory. But the temps are super low.

Either way, still a beast of a card. I think we'll be fine :cool: