Researchers create 'Holy Grail' of battery technology, smartphones with 3x battery life in sight

cmbjive

Posts: 777   +139
One of the reasons given for avoiding electric cars is the cost of replacing the batteries but I gather that the batteries tend to fail at different times so you never have to replace a full set of batteries in one go. In-fact replacing batteries should be seen as normal wear & tear. A bit like replacing a tyre.

If replacing the batteries is seen as normal wear and tear companies like Tesla wouldn't be in business for long. The batteries, as I understand it, is the largest component of the actual engine and engine components are covered by warranty, unlike tires.
 

Railman

Posts: 708   +100
If replacing the batteries is seen as normal wear and tear companies like Tesla wouldn't be in business for long. The batteries, as I understand it, is the largest component of the actual engine and engine components are covered by warranty, unlike tires.
How can the batteries be classed as a component of the engine? They are components of the car. The Tesla is not a normal car. It is a high performance luxury car. A better example would be the Nisson Leaf.
 

cmbjive

Posts: 777   +139
How can the batteries be classed as a component of the engine? They are components of the car. The Tesla is not a normal car. It is a high performance luxury car. A better example would be the Nisson Leaf.

Unlike an ICE, aren't the batteries integrated directly into the engine component itself? In other words, the car can't run if there are no batteries. That's why Tesla offers a warranty on the battery separate from its standard limited warranty.
 

Railman

Posts: 708   +100
Unlike an ICE, aren't the batteries integrated directly into the engine component itself? In other words, the car can't run if there are no batteries. That's why Tesla offers a warranty on the battery separate from its standard limited warranty.
From what I can gather the batteries are integrated into the floor of the car which from my perspective is not the engine. In a way it is not so different to a fuel tank!
 

cmbjive

Posts: 777   +139
From what I can gather the batteries are integrated into the floor of the car which from my perspective is not the engine. In a way it is not so different to a fuel tank!

The difference between a fuel tank and batteries is that the fuel tank simply holds fuel, and it doesn't care what fuel goes in there (the engine, on the other hand, would care) and is not required to power the car (any tank would do). The batteries for the Model S and other electric cars, however, are an integral part of the car and cannot operate unless the batteries are part of it. The batteries also cannot be replaced by a like product and, even if they could, would need to manufactured so as to be compatible with the Model S's structure.
 

Railman

Posts: 708   +100
The difference between a fuel tank and batteries is that the fuel tank simply holds fuel, and it doesn't care what fuel goes in there (the engine, on the other hand, would care) and is not required to power the car (any tank would do). The batteries for the Model S and other electric cars, however, are an integral part of the car and cannot operate unless the batteries are part of it. The batteries also cannot be replaced by a like product and, even if they could, would need to manufactured so as to be compatible with the Model S's structure.

But if you recall your quote "Unlike an ICE, aren't the batteries integrated directly into the engine component itself?" is the statement I was disagreeing with. A battery is a device in which energy is stored. Likewise a fuel tank is a device that stores energy. And a motor converts the energy to kinetic energy.
 

Phr3d

Posts: 404   +87
The difference between a fuel tank and batteries is that the fuel tank simply holds fuel, and it doesn't care what fuel goes in there (the engine, on the other hand, would care) and is not required to power the car (any tank would do). The batteries for the Model S and other electric cars, however, are an integral part of the car and cannot operate unless the batteries are part of it. The batteries also cannot be replaced by a like product and, even if they could, would need to manufactured so as to be compatible with the Model S's structure.

The batteries are thousands of cylinders similar to AA batteries, and the complete pack can be changed out in under a minute (demonstrated on stage by Tesla team, vid on goog-tube).
 

cmbjive

Posts: 777   +139
The batteries are thousands of cylinders similar to AA batteries, and the complete pack can be changed out in under a minute (demonstrated on stage by Tesla team, vid on goog-tube).

Yes, I saw it, but that was a publicity stunt. See here and here. The battery is the single most important component of the car and I don't believe that it so easy to remove out of the car as the videos purported. There is no way that simply swapping out that battery would be as easy because if it were there would be no need for a Tesla battery and any 85kwH battery will do.
 

Phr3d

Posts: 404   +87
I realize that it was a stunt, I tried to shorthand a couple conception in one go, I.e., the batteries are Not specialized, and that the individual batteries cannot be easily replaced. fwiw, the blog post stated 'nothing against EVs' but goes on to rant about the CARB system - shorthand again, you can't have it both ways, CARB for its many faults, has driven the auto sector to lower emission higher efficiency vehicles.
 

captaincranky

Posts: 17,452   +6,176
Yeah, but by then we'll have 4K phones which will make 4 times the demand on the 3 times more capacity batteries......:D

.....(wait for it)..............with Apple, as always, leading the way on the innovation treadmill.....
 

Railman

Posts: 708   +100
Yes, I saw it, but that was a publicity stunt. See here and here. The battery is the single most important component of the car and I don't believe that it so easy to remove out of the car as the videos purported.

Why do you have this fixation on the batteries? Surely other components of the car are equally important. The electric motors, wheels and control system just to mention three.

There is no way that simply swapping out that battery would be as easy because if it were there would be no need for a Tesla battery and any 85kwH battery will do.

Probably easier than swapping a traditional petrol tank!
 

cmbjive

Posts: 777   +139
Why do you have this fixation on the batteries? Surely other components of the car are equally important. The electric motors, wheels and control system just to mention three.

I don't have a fixation on the batteries, but am just observing that on an electric car that battery is the most important component of the car since it is essentially providing power for the entire car. Which, again, is why companies like Tesla offers a warranty on the battery separate from the limited warranty to this offered on the rest of the car. In addition, if you support electric cars wouldn't YOU have a fixation on batteries?

Probably easier than swapping a traditional petrol tank!

Surprisingly, you can remove and replace a gas tank in about fifteen minutes with a couple of wrenches and a jack.
 

Railman

Posts: 708   +100
I don't have a fixation on the batteries, but am just observing that on an electric car that battery is the most important component of the car since it is essentially providing power for the entire car.
Using the same logic the petrol tank for a traditional car is the most important component!
Which, again, is why companies like Tesla offers a warranty on the battery separate from the limited warranty to this offered on the rest of the car.
Offering a special warranty on the batteries is just a marketing ploy by Tesla. It does not support your argument. If you believe that batteries are a component of the engine then logic is not your strong point. Just admit you are mistaken and move on.
 

captaincranky

Posts: 17,452   +6,176
...[ ]....Surprisingly, you can remove and replace a gas tank in about fifteen minutes with a couple of wrenches and a jack.
Plus, you and a burly friend probably couldn't even lift the battery pack to an all electric car.

Anyway, electric power has been used very successfully over the decades for motive power, in railroads, (I still wax nostalgic fro The PRR's GG-1), "trolley buses", and bumper cars.

All we have to do to really move forward, is create steel plated streets with over head wires, and cars with pantographs...;)
 

cmbjive

Posts: 777   +139
Using the same logic the petrol tank for a traditional car is the most important component!

This is a logical fallacy. The gas tank is important but insufficient to running a car. Having a powertrain (more on that below) is more important. You can build your own gas tank out of sheet metal using cutting tools and TIG welding (I make it sound simple, but it is complex, but know that it can be done).

An electric car will not run without the battery, period. On top of that, the battery cannot be remade and/or replaced as a gas tank can.

Offering a special warranty on the batteries is just a marketing ploy by Tesla. It does not support your argument. If you believe that batteries are a component of the engine then logic is not your strong point. Just admit you are mistaken and move on.

Considering that traditional car manufacturers *do not* offer a warranty on the battery used in the car and any battery will work, it would seem that it is more than a marketing ploy by Tesla to offer a battery warranty. If you will, the battery warranty is similar to the powertrain warranty that is offered by most traditional car manufacturers: Because the powertrain (the engine, transmission, and drivetrain) are the most important components of the car because they are what makes the car drive, the battery for a Tesla car is the most important because it is what makes the car drive. If the Tesla car has no battery, that car ain't going anywhere. Period.

Why you refuse to acknowledge this simple fact is bewildering. I am not knocking Tesla in any way, but you are taking offense to what I am writing. Weird.
 

umbala

Posts: 416   +590
Hahaha, 'Holy Grail' of battery technology.... yeah OK. Sounds to me like they're looking for attention so they came up with the most attention grabbing name. We get these 'Holy Grail' breakthroughs every few months and yet battery technology hasn't improved much in the past decade. I'm getting tired of reading this garbage. All these "researchers" with doctorates, etc. should have all their titles stripped and banned from doing research for life, if they make ridiculous claims like this one and then fail to create an ACTUAL USABLE battery within 24 months.