Star Citizen's total crowdfunding has surpassed $400 million

JoeBlobers

Posts: 87   +62
Why are you "rooting for the game success"? Do you want all games to become scams that never release a decent product before demanding more money like a bottomless pit?

What a terrible thing to publish.
Words have a meaning. Words like scam or ponzi make no-sense in SC context:
* +700 devs working hard to deliver quarterly patch,
* Several free weeks per year allowing everyone to download the alpha to test the latest build,
* Starter package pledge cost 45 or 35$... and all assets are available with in game credits not cash,, increasing the grand total to +1 million individual backers, despite being in alpha
* 200.000 new individual backers just in 2020.

To summarized, all dumb but and an handful of naysayers and their triple-A game development and finance "expertise" :)
 

JoeBlobers

Posts: 87   +62
I've given sound arguments for years and you've heard them 100 times already. Time is my biggest proof now since common sense doesn't seem to be enough anymore.

5 years ago people like you were declaring 2020 to be "the year", 3 years ago they were saying 2021-2022 and so on. Several years later and another 200 mill and it's still a decade away from anything substantial being done. TL;DR scam.

Denying reality is all you can do. Laugh, please laugh some more.
A decade away? Are you an expert of SC development of even Triple-A game development? because I am sorry to say you totally missed the point: ambitious game takes times... but CIG devs are currently implementing/testing the two last core tech needed to push the game to its final development core tech development: GNE12 (Vulkan) and Server meshing.

Words have a meaning and scam or ponzi make zero sense in SC context. At all.
 

captaincranky

Posts: 18,026   +6,832
A decade away? Are you an expert of SC development of even Triple-A game development? because I am sorry to say you totally missed the point: ambitious game takes times... but CIG devs are currently implementing/testing the two last core tech needed to push the game to its final development core tech development: GNE12 (Vulkan) and Server meshing.
Oh stop. We all know Chris Roberts intends to make this game his life's work. So that he can retire in luxury, in a gated community, somewhere in fiery So Cal.
 

blackdreamhunk

Posts: 86   +4
I feel scammed everyone knows where I stand. I wonder if the legal system is going to be there for me if star citizen fails? Will lawyers turn their backs on gamers that are scammed if star citizen fails? maybe lawyers need money to do what is right? just wondering. People keep telling me I should be forced to stay with star citizen. You know I am not allowed to talk about what happens if a star citizen fails on the spectrum. 7k backer here.

I thought gaming was to be a fun hobby. I guess world leaders and the legal system don't care about us gamers getting scammed.I was told justice was blind.

you should hope over to the thread called "MISC Out Origin's Origin" people claiming the 890 jump isn't an exploration ship.
remember my argument last thread about advertising.
 
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Puiu

Posts: 5,187   +4,054
TechSpot Elite
45/35$ vs hundreds hours of entertainment already in alpha... Which just a start. best ROI of the game industry by far.
I also enjoy playing around with game engines and tech demoes. It doesn't mean I was playing a game :)

"A decade away?" - I may not be a game developer, but I am a programmer. it's pretty clear that they are nowhere near ready to release a product. the bugs alone, that they have now, will take years to fix.

"ambitious game takes times" - and ambitious scams take time to fool people
 
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RaXoR

Posts: 232   +171
A decade away? Are you an expert of SC development of even Triple-A game development? because I am sorry to say you totally missed the point: ambitious game takes times... but CIG devs are currently implementing/testing the two last core tech needed to push the game to its final development core tech development: GNE12 (Vulkan) and Server meshing.

Words have a meaning and scam or ponzi make zero sense in SC context. At all.
Vulkan is open source. Given that Lumberyard is also open source, the libraries required to interface Vulkan with Lumberyard already exist. If they are writing from scratch then that's a waste of money and time as there are better solutions already in place given how widely used the API is. As far as server meshing, again there are already solutions in existence. Amazon themselves have ways of handling server meshing since they released New World which is an MMO. They are giving you BS to believe so you keep defending a dead end game. The "demos" so far are simply to entice people into spending more money. I've gotten thousands of hours out of simpler games at a fraction of the cost the average whale spends on this stupid scheme.
 

blackdreamhunk

Posts: 86   +4
I would like to add and forgot to add I have read on Reddit. There are a number of lawyers or people claiming to be lawyers on Reddit. They have publicly made confessions that if star citizen fails they will not take up the case because there will be no money in it. They have publicly made confessed they felt what CIg is doing was morally wrong.

So to me, that is telling me that justice has a price. Hopefully, there is a god in this life to judge. what do I know I am human I can only go and what I have experienced or see with my own eyes. . To quote the bible "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

It would be cool if Bioware took over star citizen. Think a lot of game devs would there love to finish star citizen if Chris Roberts failed to deliver or somehow can't deliver star citizen games. Asking the two doctors of BioWare to come back one last time to finish star citizen personally make me really happy. just suggesting after currently reading the comments here.
 
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wiyosaya

Posts: 6,976   +5,490
Why are you "rooting for the game success"? Do you want all games to become scams that never release a decent product before demanding more money like a bottomless pit?

What a terrible thing to publish.
As I understand it, Roberts made the choice to try to fund this by crowdfunding because no one in the industry was interested in funding a space sim. If you ask me, the amount of money put into this by the crowd should show the industry that there is, indeed, substantial interest in space games.

Would another game developer that tries to crowdfund their game's development succeed in raising as much money? That is a difficult call to make. I guess it would depend on who that game developer is. The controversy over SC is easy to discover, and I would think that that would deter anyone from "investing" in a similarly funded game.
 

wiyosaya

Posts: 6,976   +5,490
Vulkan is open source. Given that Lumberyard is also open source, the libraries required to interface Vulkan with Lumberyard already exist. If they are writing from scratch then that's a waste of money and time as there are better solutions already in place given how widely used the API is. As far as server meshing, again there are already solutions in existence. Amazon themselves have ways of handling server meshing since they released New World which is an MMO. They are giving you BS to believe so you keep defending a dead end game. The "demos" so far are simply to entice people into spending more money. I've gotten thousands of hours out of simpler games at a fraction of the cost the average whale spends on this stupid scheme.
And you are privy to the requirements of the games, so you are qualified to make this assessment. :rolleyes:
 

Dimitriid

Posts: 1,549   +3,049
As I understand it, Roberts made the choice to try to fund this by crowdfunding because no one in the industry was interested in funding a space sim
I have to press X to doubt on that. Not that I am calling Roberts an outright liar (For this specific line anyway) But I am saying that there is a colossal chasm between A space sim and THE space sim he wanted to build: Guys like him or Molyneux will tell you they'll create actual self-aware AI as part of their development for the first time in humanity's history just so they can have a more robust videogame.

Nobody should believe them and for good reason: Whenever is huge corporations or people having to learn to be cautious with their money the message should remain that if it sounds too good to be true it's because it is too good to be true and it won't be realized.
 

wiyosaya

Posts: 6,976   +5,490
I also enjoy playing around with game engines and tech demoes. It doesn't mean I was playing a game :)

"A decade away?" - I may not be a game developer, but I am a programmer. it's pretty clear that they are nowhere near ready to release a product. the bugs alone, that they have now, will take years to fix.

"ambitious game takes times" - and ambitious scams take time to fool people
I'm a developer, too. That does not mean that I would even attempt to make an assessment of how long it is going to take them to fix their current slate of bugs. They are fixing bugs, however.
 

wiyosaya

Posts: 6,976   +5,490
I have to press X to doubt on that. Not that I am calling Roberts an outright liar (For this specific line anyway) But I am saying that there is a colossal chasm between A space sim and THE space sim he wanted to build: Guys like him or Molyneux will tell you they'll create actual self-aware AI as part of their development for the first time in humanity's history just so they can have a more robust videogame.

Nobody should believe them and for good reason: Whenever is huge corporations or people having to learn to be cautious with their money the message should remain that if it sounds too good to be true it's because it is too good to be true and it won't be realized.
You have a point. I imagine, though, that many AAA game companies would love to have $400M to build a game.
 

Dimitriid

Posts: 1,549   +3,049
You have a point. I imagine, though, that many AAA game companies would love to have $400M to build a game.
I think many of them do: Just recently I was reading how AC Valhalla used 15 different studios and over 1000 people to develop, they've gotta be close to 400m in budget & marketing.

But well, they don't invest that kind of money on the very first Assassin's Creed you can be sure of that: they do so only when they're extra sure it's a well, sure shot.
 

Puiu

Posts: 5,187   +4,054
TechSpot Elite
I think many of them do: Just recently I was reading how AC Valhalla used 15 different studios and over 1000 people to develop, they've gotta be close to 400m in budget & marketing.

But well, they don't invest that kind of money on the very first Assassin's Creed you can be sure of that: they do so only when they're extra sure it's a well, sure shot.
AC games don't usually go above 100 mil and that includes the marketing campaigns. The fact that most devs are from their own studios and the relatively short 2-3 years dev time helps keep costs down.
 

wiyosaya

Posts: 6,976   +5,490
I think many of them do: Just recently I was reading how AC Valhalla used 15 different studios and over 1000 people to develop, they've gotta be close to 400m in budget & marketing.

But well, they don't invest that kind of money on the very first Assassin's Creed you can be sure of that: they do so only when they're extra sure it's a well, sure shot.
I am not entirely sure of the scope of SC development at this time, however, it is far more than the 10 - 15 developers and one studio that they had when the originally started the kickstarter campaign. According to this page, it is over 600 developers at this time and it looks like there are at least five studios not counting any "partner" efforts. It is no longer a small effort by a tiny team.
 

Bamda

Posts: 305   +147
Much fraudulent activity goes unreported, due to the person scammed being too embarrassed to report it.
That's your response? Anyone with a brain can report a fraud to any AG if the crime existed. LOL!
 

captaincranky

Posts: 18,026   +6,832
That's your response? Anyone with a brain can report a fraud to any AG if the crime existed. LOL!
They can but they don't LOL CiG's terms of service, ,and the inability of people to understand them, are the only reason some of their "transactions", don't rise to the level of, "deceptive business practices".

An altogether more palatable resolution, is to rationalize that you haven't been, "taken for a ride", and leave it at that.
 

blackdreamhunk

Posts: 86   +4
Yeah, the star citizen spectrum is the place where your not allowed to talk about what if star citizen fails. kinda like the Camural getting banned for talking about paints

 

CaptSnuggles

Posts: 24   +15
I feel scammed everyone knows where I stand. I wonder if the legal system is going to be there for me if star citizen fails? Will lawyers turn their backs on gamers that are scammed if star citizen fails? maybe lawyers need money to do what is right? just wondering. People keep telling me I should be forced to stay with star citizen. You know I am not allowed to talk about what happens if a star citizen fails on the spectrum. 7k backer here.

I thought gaming was to be a fun hobby. I guess world leaders and the legal system don't care about us gamers getting scammed.I was told justice was blind.

you should hope over to the thread called "MISC Out Origin's Origin" people claiming the 890 jump isn't an exploration ship.
remember my argument last thread about advertising.
I dont think anyone remembers. You derailed it with so many incoherent points.
 

blackdreamhunk

Posts: 86   +4
I do believe CIg Chris Roberts I would say forced "TOS" on me around patch 3.0 after my purchase of some ships. . There was never any kind of disclaimer up until patch 3.0

For Kickstarter those are still not the original terms. The original terms of sale are from Kickstarter:
"Project Creators are required to fulfill all rewards of their successful fundraising campaigns or refund any Backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill"

https://www.kickstarter.com/terms-of-use/oct2012
 
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Just read the fine print, they likely have paid more on lawyers to ensure any money "donated" to the cause, can not be used against them and it for entertainment value only. It was scam back in 2012 and still a scam in 2021.
 

blackdreamhunk

Posts: 86   +4
Just read the fine print, they likely have paid more on lawyers to ensure any money "donated" to the cause, can not be used against them and it for entertainment value only. It was scam back in 2012 and still a scam in 2021.
By Canada laws and I am sure EU laws, it is still misleading. CIg does not get to invent terminology the law does.Cig invented their own terminology that the legal system already has terms for. This is still misleading.

CIG should also have on their store page we have different terms or vocabulary than the illegal system if they wanted to go down that route.

let me quote the Canada law for you because you don't seem to register what the law says.


The misleading advertising and labelling provisions enforced by the Competition Bureau prohibit making any deceptive representations for the purpose of promoting a product or a business interest, and encourage the provision of sufficient information to allow consumers to make informed choices.
https://www.competitionbureau.gc.ca/eic/site/cb-bc.nsf/eng/02776.htm


CIg should be clear on their sales page is the pledge I am making or a donation period. IIf CIg has their own terminology then they should have all youtube content creators and in big black letters, we have different terminology than the law. The law already has terminology for what is a purchase, pledge, or donation.

If anyone tries to tell me the 890 jump is some kind of transport ship. This is legally now a bait and switch purchase to me. Because CIG marketing and 28th chairman letter pledge promise clearly stated the 890 jump would be an exploration ship, not a passenger transport ship.

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source for the chair letter at 28 million on CIg's website that is still up.

Letter from the Chairman: $28 Million!

I would like to quote Canadain law about bait and switch marketing

quote"
[HEADING=2]Bait and Switch Selling[/HEADING]

[HEADING=3]PDF version[/HEADING]
Bait and Switch Selling
PDF; 474 KB; 1 Page


A store attracts customers by an advertisement for a bargain‑priced product. Once inside, the customer discovers that the product that was advertised, the “bait”, is sold out or otherwise unavailable.


The “switch” occurs when a salesperson pressures the customer into purchasing a higher‑priced product as a replacement, or if customers find themselves induced to make other purchases while inside the store.


[HEADING=2]Bait and switch selling affects you as a consumer[/HEADING]

In both cases above, the retailer successfully lures customers into its store with an advertised bargain that turns out to be unavailable in reasonable quantities.


[HEADING=2]Bait and switch selling affects you as a competitor[/HEADING]

Bait and switch selling is anti‑competitive. By advertising products at bargain prices that are not available in reasonable quantities, retailers can unfairly lure consumers into their stores, thereby taking business away from honest retailers. This practice may cause businesses to lose their loyal customer base, and new customers may not consider entering their stores.


It is not bait and switch selling if the advertiser can establish that the non‑availability of the product was due to circumstances beyond its control, the quantity of the product obtained was reasonable, or the customer was offered a rain check when supplies were exhausted.


Retailers who contravene the law may be ordered by a court to stop the conduct, to publish a corrective notice and/or to pay an administrative monetary penalty.



The Competition Bureau, as an independent law enforcement agency, ensures that Canadian businesses and consumers prosper in a competitive and innovative marketplace.
Headed by the Commissioner of Competition, the Bureau is responsible for the administration and enforcement of the Competition Act, the Consumer Packaging and Labelling Act, the Textile Labelling Act and the Precious Metals Marking Act.
[HEADING=2]Legal actions[/HEADING]

We have the ability to refer criminal matters to the Director of Public Prosecutions, who then decides whether to prosecute before the courts. We also have the power to bring civil matters before the Competition Tribunal or the courts, depending on the conduct in question and applicable legal provisions.

[HEADING=2]Written opinions[/HEADING]

The Commissioner has the discretion to provide a binding written opinion to businesses seeking to comply with the Competition Act. Any person may request written opinions on whether proposed business plans and practices could raise concerns under the Act.

[HEADING=2]Questions or complaints[/HEADING]

If you believe any of the laws under the Bureau’s jurisdiction have been breached, please fill out our online form, call, fax or write.
We are required by law to conduct our investigations in private. We keep the identity of the source and the information provided confidential, subject to certain exceptions."


more adverting I want to show that the 890 jump currently does not live up to

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but this how people talk about the 890 jump

" I think the 890 would make a great expedition vessel where the origin and destination ports are known and a general path and fuel estimation are taken into account. A full itinerary set and an allowance for limited exploration off of that plan. I am not being facetious (even though it might be funny) but the 890 should not go far off the well beaten path. Maybe it could handle certain space phenomena that could threaten smaller craft (spitballing ideas here), maybe it could go to exotic frontier type locations and take a look about and then head back to port like other luxury expedition vehicles. I could not imagine it being well suited to heading out into unknown space for an unknown duration (probably won't stop folks from trying anyway). I could see upfitters making a great deal of money offering services to make the 890 more suited to "ruggedness" if the game ever made that a possibility."
source link
[HEADING=2]How does a Jump stack up against the odyssey?[/HEADING]
 
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blackdreamhunk

Posts: 86   +4
Just want to share this quote there as well. On the same subject as purchase. This guy has a lot examples where CIg states purchase in their adverting. I didn't even think to look at them. No where does say a pledge is some kind of donation

quote" Also, disclaimers aren't free passes and don't override consumer laws, statutory rights, and other applicable regulations. Cheers.

EDIT: legal definition of purchase
'"To buy; the transfer of property from one person to another by an agreement. Under the Uniform Commercial Code (UCC), taking by sale, discount, negotiation, mortgage, pledge, lien, issue, reissue, gift, or any voluntary transaction" https://dictionary.findlaw.com/definition/purchase.html

source kink
Just read the fine print, they likely have paid more on lawyers to ensure any money "donated" to the cause, can not be used against them and it for entertainment value only. It was scam back in 2012 and still a scam in 2021.

just want to share this quote there as well. On the same subject as purchase. This guy has a lot examples where CIg states purchase in their adverting. I didn't even think to look at them. No where does say a pledge is some kind of donation

quote" Also, disclaimers aren't free passes and don't override consumer laws, statutory rights, and other applicable regulations. Cheers.

EDIT: legal definition of purchase
'"To buy; the transfer of property from one person to another by an agreement. Under the Uniform Commercial Code (UCC), taking by sale, discount, negotiation, mortgage, pledge, lien, issue, reissue, gift, or any voluntary transaction" https://dictionary.findlaw.com/definition/purchase.html

source kink
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/3/thread/understanding-our-purchasing

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On reddit and spectrum I am told the 890 jump isn't an exploration ship. I told them I do not own or have rights to the the 890 jump but my ship is now only good as a roleplaying ship or transport ship. I am told my pledge is just donations. I didn't buy the 890 jump for a useless role-paying ship. I bought the ship based on marketing and what early game devs told me. I am harassed and told the following about the 890 jump

useless

transport ship

role-playing ship

not an exploration ship

party boat

doesn’t have the firepower or does not need any more firepower

cruise liner

none of those words you find in original marketing. You will not find any of those words in the Letter from the Chairman: $28 Million! you will not find those words 31 million pledge promise. Most of the 890 jump marketing state the 890 jump is an exploration ship to travel the stars and have enough firepower to stay safe in dangerous territories.

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Here is a good quote

[HEADING=2]Understanding Our "Purchasing"[/HEADING]
"If you pledge for https://robertsspaceindustries.com/pledge/Packages/UEE-Exploration-2950
cig cannot turn around and give you https://robertsspaceindustries.com/pledge/Packages/Aurora-MR-Holiday-Starter-Pack-Warbond and pocket the 1060.00

C'mon, let's see you cite legal cases and in particular where "CiGs legal" trumps jurisdiction. Heck, lets see you cite where a CF has done precisely what you claim... We'll wait. C'mon, pony up.

You should note Kickstarter's statement in regards to this...
"“Kickstarter’s Terms of Use require creators to fulfill all rewards of their project or refund any backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill. […] This information can serve as a basis for legal recourse if a creator doesn’t fulfill their promises. We hope that backers will consider using this provision only in cases where they feel that a creator has not made a good faith effort to complete the project and fulfill.”


p.s.

You might try reading the following...

https://justsoldit.com/broken-promises-when-a-brand-fails-to-deliver-on-its-commitments/



https://forpurposelaw.com/exactly-pledge/''

quote," Btw, a brochure that includes technical specs qualifies as sale documentation, and "subject to change" disclaimers don't allow everything. That's why many companies including Apple (misleading 4G Ipad ad) have been fined in the past."
 
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