Test Driving the 2023 BMW iX M60: The carmaker's most powerful EV

wiyosaya

Posts: 7,694   +6,635
Truth is I think a plug in hybrid is a better fit for a lot of people.
It gives the feel of an EV, but lets the owner ease into it.

A neighbor has an Escape plugin hybrid (39 miles using electric only). She has traveled the last 550 miles and only burned 6 gallons of gasoline.
A neighbor of mine has a recent Prius Prime. Her husband said that she went 2,000 miles without visiting a gas station. Not all on one charge, obviously.

At the time I spoke with him, he owned a Chevy Volt. I think he now owns a Hyundai Ioniq 5 which is a full EV. Consumer Reports recently rated the Ionic 5 "Recommended" https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/hyundai/ioniq-5/
 

scavengerspc

Posts: 2,578   +2,802
TechSpot Elite
Interesting video. It could be a game changer. However, we might as well be talking to cro-magnon man with the skeptics in this thread. I guess they don't believe that mankind will advance. Perhaps they are getting their information from Tucker Carlson.
We actually disagree here. I don't believe for a second that Tucker Carlson has ever provided any "information". :cool:

But yeah that video is relatively short but right to the point and the vids you gave were very good too. SS batteries are really looking like the true next advancement in battery tech but to be honest, what I look forward to maybe just as much is what will the naysayers have to complain about afterwards. It will be a good show for sure.

A neighbor of mine has a recent Prius Prime. Her husband said that she went 2,000 miles without visiting a gas station. Not all on one charge, obviously.
Incredible. In many ways, I think a Hybrid is a better fit for a lot of people. You get the benefits of an EV and the smoke pump when needed. We talked here before, and I mentioned I was going to get an F-150 EV but I am seriously considering an F-250 Hybrid. When I can get one, that is.
 

wiyosaya

Posts: 7,694   +6,635
We actually disagree here. I don't believe for a second that Tucker Carlson has ever provided any "information". :cool:
Oh, I'm sorry. Did I imply that any information that Tucker Carlson has is anything but bad?? My Bad! :eek: I'm surprised he is not spouting something like ICE replacement theory. šŸ¤£
But yeah that video is relatively short but right to the point and the vids you gave were very good too. SS batteries are really looking like the true next advancement in battery tech but to be honest, what I look forward to maybe just as much is what will the naysayers have to complain about afterwards. It will be a good show for sure.
Beyond SS batteries, I think Ultracapacitors would the the Holy Grail for EVs, but I agree. The Naysayers are like shooting fish in a barrel, and its often rather fun.
Incredible. In many ways, I think a Hybrid is a better fit for a lot of people. You get the benefits of an EV and the smoke pump when needed. We talked here before, and I mentioned I was going to get an F-150 EV but I am seriously considering an F-250 Hybrid. When I can get one, that is.
I can't say that I'm disappointed with my Prius. I'm getting around 49MPG right now, and I have not deflated my tires, yet, for the summer weather. BTW - I run Nokian Nordman 6 tires year-round. They are lrr and are not so soft that the wear quickly.

Hybrids can be great if they fit your needs. I have been contemplating getting a Prius Prime as my next car, but I'm a bit reluctant with these SS batteries from Toyota on the horizon. I guess I will have to browse http://priuschat.com to keep up on the latest info.
 

Tantor

Posts: 314   +577
I have nothing against EVs in principle. But the battery technology is still not there.

Ever notice how most EVs are no better than their IC versions. And in many instances they're worse.

Contrast the 2023 Mini Coopers. The IC version costs $26,900. 0-60 is 6.4 seconds. Range around 400 miles on the fwy. The EV version costs $29,900, 0-60 is 6.9 seconds and range is 110 miles.

The Mini EV is more expensive, slower, and has massively lower range. And it weighs a lot more.

Back in my day we we had choice terms for such cars. Land yacht, tuna boat, big rig, lard ***, and most appropriate for EVs, lead sled. Don't get me wrong, some people love big heavy cars. But lots of people prefer lightweight, lean, INEXPENSIVE cars. EV technology can't deliver that.

And here's a major concern. User serviceability. Many components in the new cars are sealed for life.

 

scavengerspc

Posts: 2,578   +2,802
TechSpot Elite
I have nothing against EVs in principle. But the battery technology is still not there.
I agree, but remember 24 years ago LI-ion batteries were "the answer".
Ever notice how most EVs are no better than their IC versions.
Honestly I haven't. I don't think anyone has.
The IC version costs $26,900. 0-60 is 6.4 seconds. Range around 400 miles on the fwy. The EV version costs $29,900, 0-60 is 6.9 seconds and range is 110 miles.
Don't forget the EV tax credit. After that, the Mini EV could be under 24k.
The Mini EV is more expensive, slower, and has massively lower range. And it weighs a lot more.
From what I have seen, that is absolutely true. But it is not because it is an electric, it's because that is how Mini built it. Did people hate on smokers because the Pinto was slow and blowupable? They blamed Ford, which they should have.
But lots of people prefer lightweight, lean, INEXPENSIVE cars. EV technology can't deliver that.
My toy Focus EV weighs 450 more pounds than the smoke stack Focus.
And here's a major concern. User serviceability. Many components in the new cars are sealed for life.
Not in EVs. In fact because of the surprising simplicity they are more user-friendly and easy to repair. At least for now. Even though my Focus only had 35k miles when I bought it I followed the service schedule all the way up to the 150k mile point. Ford scanned the systems and I replaced an AC cabin filter and did the battery coolant replacement. Cost me $160. Although it will need tires before a gas Focus would.
 
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wiyosaya

Posts: 7,694   +6,635
And here's a major concern. User serviceability. Many components in the new cars are sealed for life.
I find it surprising how many people are misinformed on this subject. EVs, in general, are predicted to have far less servicing issues than any ICE. However, I can understand that since ICE vehicles have been the norm forever, and ICE vehicles have to have, and are known to have, service issues, that people do not have a better basis to compare to. A major concern with dealerships is that because dealerships make much of their profit on service, dealerships will no longer be able to eek out a profit when EVs become the norm.

Just think of it, there's no oil to change, electric motors do not need servicing (in part because they have far less moving parts than an ICE), just what do you need to repair?? Take the experience @scavengerspc How many ICE vehicle owners can say that during 115K miles of ownership, their servicing requirements have cost them only $160. I doubt that any ICE vehicle owner, even a hybrid owner like myself, can say that. In fact, low to extremely low maintenance is, at least in my book, in the column of pluses for EV ownership.

I also think that holding out a trendy, gotta keep up with the Jones' car like a Mini (who's ICE vehicles have crap repair records from Consumer Reports) is just as bad as this vehicle from trendy keep up with the Jones' superbad Consumer Reports repair records BMW. :( And a whole 0.5s difference in 0-60 times. Wow. That's significant. :rolleyes:

Now I agree with you about the range, but this is a choice that Trendy Mini made in their decisions to jump on the EV bandwagon or be left behind the Trend, and that is on Mini and no one else or any other manufacturer.

My thoughts are that these Trendy EV manufacturers are going to weeded out by minimal consumer demand. IMO, though it costs > $10K more, the Hyundai Ioniq 5 is a much better deal. Its almost as fast in 0-60 (if that should be any concern), and has a between 256 and 300 mile range depending on which battery pack you get.

I also agree with you, and every other naysayer in this thread, that battery technology is not there yet; however, there is probably more research and development advancements on the horizon for energy storage technology than there is in any other area of industrial science because literally everyone wants to jump in on the trend, and the first to develop and commercialize a superior energy storage technology stands to make a great deal of money.

My take is that if you are considering and EV, and your current vehicle has more miles left on it, WAIT. You'll be happy you did especially when developments result in better energy storage technology being incorporated in future EVs.
 

Fearghast

Posts: 511   +422
I find it surprising how many people are misinformed on this subject. EVs, in general, are predicted to have far less servicing issues than any ICE.
That's certainly true as most you do not have to deal with some parts that do require maintenance on ICE cars, BUT considering the amount of recalls, I can share the sentiment that it might be an issue in future as well.

For brands that have a generally bad track record of reliability, EV is a partial "hardware" solution, but considering EVs are more software dependant ... and let's be honest, the worst software you can find is in cars. EV can become their own can of worms.
Not to mention EVs needs a proper cooling system, reliable system, with good temperature control.
etc.

I personally really like EVs, 90% of my trips are EV, but I do not see EV as saviour for many brands out there.
 

wiyosaya

Posts: 7,694   +6,635
I personally really like EVs, 90% of my trips are EV, but I do not see EV as saviour for many brands out there.
Absolutely, and that will be on them. When once they were able to get by producing crap, if they expect that they can continue to "get by" by producing crap, I don't think that business model is going to work for them anymore.
 

scavengerspc

Posts: 2,578   +2,802
TechSpot Elite
Over 50% of consumers world-wide now plan to buy some form of EV (EV, PHEV, Hybrid) https://www.auto123.com/en/news/study-global-percentage-buyers-ready-electric/69266/
I'm thinking that people of the world will someday look back to 2022 as the time when the petroleum industry saw prices soar during the raising popularity of EVs as a picture-perfect definition of cutting ones own throat.

And we know that the industry has at least something to do with this. In 2008 oil prices were $40 more per barrel and gasoline prices didn't go up nearly as high as they are now. Maybe it's speculations, but they are supposed to react on a supply\demand basis.
 

wiyosaya

Posts: 7,694   +6,635
I'm thinking that people of the world will someday look back to 2022 as the time when the petroleum industry saw prices soar during the raising popularity of EVs as a picture-perfect definition of cutting ones own throat.

And we know that the industry has at least something to do with this. In 2008 oil prices were $40 more per barrel and gasoline prices didn't go up nearly as high as they are now. Maybe it's speculations, but they are supposed to react on a supply\demand basis.
I agree. And I am all for letting them hang themselves with their own greed.
 

Fearghast

Posts: 511   +422
If you read the article, I find it quite shocking that the number of people in the US considering EVs is the lowest in the world. :rolleyes:
TBH, it is not shocking to me :)
Considering the infrastructure - not just charging, but roads, average trip length, design of cities, parking lots etc. + the culture trend to own at least a compact SUV or a pickup truck (efficiency/charging/price/weight).
It certainly won't be as "easy" as over here in Europe.
 

scavengerspc

Posts: 2,578   +2,802
TechSpot Elite
If you read the article, I find it quite shocking that the number of people in the US considering EVs is the lowest in the world. :rolleyes:
Think about it though. As long as a lot of people in the US have something very old to fall back on, they will stay with that. Progress is scary I guess.

There are people complaining right now about the end of the incandescent bulb. 150 years old and they can't bare to see it go.
 

bobc4012

Posts: 159   +67
Truth is I think a plug in hybrid is a better fit for a lot of people.
It gives the feel of an EV, but lets the owner ease into it..
This is a better response than your reply to "insanegamer". While not every EV is six figures, they are still prohibitively expensive for the average person. Even hybrids aren't that cheap, but a better solution unless all you do is drive a few miles to work everyday and the usual jaunts to the nearby stores. At this stage, there are still too many problems for EVs to be the only cars on the road. Try going on a 600 mile trip in an EV in 10/11 hours. From the various articles I have read, you want to keep the batteries charged between 20% to 80% for fastest recharging. Below 20%, it takes a while to get to 20%. Likewise, from 80% to 100% takes another while and that is even with the level 3 chargers, which most people won't have in their home (more likely a level 1 and, some, a level 2).

I see advocates spouting "take a trip and you can eat dinner while the car is charging up for the next leg". However, the next leg is a "short distance away", maybe 80 miles or so depending how fully charged the battery. That also assumes the other diners aren't charging their cars and/or the restaurants has sufficient - or even has - charging stations and at what level - likewisee for the hotels/motels.

Neither the infrastructure nor the battery technology is sufficient at this time. Maybe the battery technology will be there 10 years from now, or a breakthrough in fusion power (assuming its use will be cheap and can be used in vehicles). As for the infrastructure, it will have to require gasoline stations to convert to charging stations that can fully charge a car in about 5 minutes or less - maybe a few minutes longer for a large truck/semi-type. Long charging times means long lines. Then the price of such vehicles. While they may get slightly cheaper over the next few years, they will still be costly and people will expect them to last as long as the house they live in. If that is the case, people won't be buying a new car every 3-5 years and the makers will have to raise their prices even more to stay in business. Also, another infrastructure concern will be the power grid required to maintain thousands of high-level charging stations. States, like California, with rolling blackouts during the summer or hot spells, will have real problems when people can't charge their cars to get to work - not everyone has a job where they can work from home.

There are too many variables to have a fully EV transportation system now. Even the gasoline model took many years to evolve in what we have today (over 100). Even after WWII, there were still many places in the country where you had to go a distance before finding a gas station. Too many of the "ignorant" younger generation only see things in light of today's society. Those of us who were born before/during the depression, lived through WWII (with its technical advances) and saw/particpated in the technological advances that people enjoy today, can better understand what it took to get where we are today. While I don't believe it will take anywhere near 100+ years to evolve EV to the same equivalent, it won't happen overnight. One can hope that someone will find a brilliant idea that makes it happen, but you can't plan on it.
 
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wiyosaya

Posts: 7,694   +6,635
Replying to stuff like this is really getting tiring.
Neither the infrastructure nor the battery technology is sufficient at this time. Maybe the battery technology will be there 10 years from now, or a breakthrough in fusion power (assuming its use will be cheap and can be used in vehicles).
Fusion power? Back in 2010, already, there was enough excess generating capacity in the US to provide power for 73% of the light-duty vehicle fleet
As for the infrastructure, it will have to require gasoline stations to convert to charging stations that can fully charge a car in about 5 minutes or less - maybe a few minutes longer for a large truck/semi-type.
In daily useage, why would anyone go to a gas station to charge their EV??? It's simple enough to install a 220/240V line in your garage, and that is plenty to charge, overnight, most EVs for the normal type of daily driving most people do.

And for those trips, there are states, like NY, that are installing charging stations along their interstate highway system - https://www.thruway.ny.gov/travelers/travelplazas/service-area-project/index.html
Long charging times means long lines. Then the price of such vehicles. While they may get slightly cheaper over the next few years, they will still be costly and people will expect them to last as long as the house they live in. If that is the case, people won't be buying a new car every 3-5 years and the makers will have to raise their prices even more to stay in business. Also, another infrastructure concern will be the power grid required to maintain thousands of high-level charging stations. States, like California, with rolling blackouts during the summer or hot spells, will have real problems when people can't charge their cars to get to work - not everyone has a job where they can work from home.
And all this FUD about price indicates to me that you have no personal experience. When I bought even my Prius in 2006, the price of gas went high enough in the next few years that what I saved on gas paid for the difference in the cost of the hybrid vs a standard ICE vehicle. And now, with the price of gas as it is, once again, I am saving a substantial amount of money in gas alone that my Prius is/was an economical buy.

Not to mention, that the savings on gas alone, the savings on service, for an EV, will pay for itself over time.

And again, most people do not have extended commutes where they would not be able to charge their cars at home overnight - making the charging station argument a mute point.

Besides, many cities throughout the US have or are installed(ing) charging stations in public parking facilities.
There are too many variables to have a fully EV transportation system now. Even the gasoline model took many years to evolve in what we have today (over 100). Even after WWII, there were still many places in the country where you had to go a distance before finding a gas station. Too many of the "ignorant" younger generation only see things in light of today's society. Those of us who were born before/during the depression, lived through WWII (with its technical advances) and saw/particpated in the technological advances that people enjoy today, can better understand what it took to get where we are today. While I don't believe it will take anywhere near 100+ years to evolve EV to the same equivalent, it won't happen overnight. One can hope that someone will find a brilliant idea that makes it happen, but you can't plan on it.
You may be old enough to have seen such advancements, but I think that others have learned lessons from the past and are moving forward in a manner where the mistakes of the past stand far less of a chance of being repeated.