The Windows 11 22H2 update is killing Nvidia gaming performance, causing BSOD for some...

TheRealSCDC

Posts: 447   +765
Microsoft could have taken it 1 step further and find/delete any crypto-currency. Gotta help a brother out.
 

Darth Shiv

Posts: 2,315   +849
Not to defend MS, but are we entirely sure that it is MS fault and not something stupid done by nvidia and now its being exposed by the update?
Any change in API behaviour is by definition a regression even if the API was buggy. MSFT used to care about breaking these things. They don't now. They let the customer do all this testing.

Having said that, MSFT often breaks stuff with their more agile dev processes now anyway so there's a decent chance MSFT broke something not fixed behaviour. They are also redesigning stuff on the fly and polishing. Lots of risk with lots of change.
 

texasrattler

Posts: 1,344   +644
Oh man, this is hilarious. But in a bad way.

After the 22H2 update I loaded up SoD2. It was obviously running at a very bad frame rate. So was Dying Light 2 and Strange Brigade (my guilty pleasure).

I fired up the frame counter and discovered that all the games were running at 40 FPS. Right on the nose.

After some quick digging, I found that the update somehow turned on whisper mode in the NV control panel and it was set to limit the frame rate to 40 FPS.

I turned whisper mode off and all is back to normal.

I hope everyone having a problem has as easy a fix as I had.

giphy.gif
Wtf is whisper mode? Never heard of that or seen in the Nvidia control panel.
 

scavengerspc

Posts: 2,837   +3,096
TechSpot Elite
Wtf is whisper mode? Never heard of that or seen in the Nvidia control panel.
Actually setting the frame rate is in the NV control panel but to toggle it on\off open GeForce experience and click on settings (gear icon to the left of your username). Make sure General is selected in the left panel and scroll down to Whisper Mode. Once it's on, you can set the max frame rate in the control panels "Manage 3D setting". Use the Global or Program settings tabs.
 

m3tavision

Posts: 1,005   +837
Actually setting the frame rate is in the NV control panel but to toggle it on\off open GeForce experience and click on settings (gear icon to the left of your username). Make sure General is selected in the left panel and scroll down to Whisper Mode. Once it's on, you can set the max frame rate in the control panels "Manage 3D setting". Use the Global or Program settings tabs.

No respectable gamer uses GFE...
 

scavengerspc

Posts: 2,837   +3,096
TechSpot Elite
Because it is just an added layer of unwanted software... just like nvidia filters. All newbie stuff that cuts frames and adds frametimes.
Interesting, but I have never had that particular GeForce Experience. I install it because I have much more control in gaming on my laptop with whisper mode, battery boost and especially image scaling when I use my laptop unplugged.

I am curious though, so I will check performance after tempoarily uninstalling it.
 

scavengerspc

Posts: 2,837   +3,096
TechSpot Elite
I am curious though, so I will check performance after tempoarily uninstalling it.
@m3tavision So here is what I found. I compared frame rates with FRAPS runs in State of Decay 2 and Dying Light 2 with and without GFE. All runs were within a few frames of the others.

Edit: I just compared Strange Brigade. The differences were nearly identical to the other 2 games, back and forth results with about a 2% difference with the built-in benchmarking tool.

Next I ran 3Dmark. Here is a run with my laptop in June:

Today I ran it after removing GFE, cleaning with a driver cleaner then rebooting:

So I have to conclude that it's this noob that provided the actual facts.
Then I reinstalled GeForce Experience.
 
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texasrattler

Posts: 1,344   +644
GFE had a lot of issues when it came out. While it has got better since, a lot of gamers don't trust/rely on it.
A lot of its issues rely on compatability problems with games. GFEs features like recording/monitoring can cause issues with some games. Disabling the features usually will resolve the issue but not always. Almost always removing GFE resolved the issues.

I personally don't use GFE unless I need to which was like once or twice to redeem a game. Once you do that you can uninstall it. I just don't need it. I manually always set my games settings nor do I use any of its features.
 

McRuff

Posts: 7   +6
So I have to conclude that it's this noob that provided the actual facts.
Then I reinstalled GeForce Experience.

Your post in defense of GFE is comedy gold considering the very next post advises that Nvidia has released a beta driver of GFE to fix the problem.
 

scavengerspc

Posts: 2,837   +3,096
TechSpot Elite
Your post in defense of GFE is comedy gold considering the very next post advises that Nvidia has released a beta driver of GFE to fix the problem.
And my posts stated that I found the problem to be GFE:
"After some quick digging, I found that the update somehow turned on whisper mode in the NV control panel and it was set to limit the frame rate to 40 FPS."

And in my next post I wrote:
"Actually setting the frame rate is in the NV control panel but to toggle it on\off open GeForce experience and click on settings"

What the hell man? Talk about providing an example of comedy gold.
 

Darth Shiv

Posts: 2,315   +849
Why?

Sorry, but I don't have a paranoid schizophrenic bone in my body.
The benefit of autotuned settings vs an experienced gamer using what they want? Everyone has different goals with perf and visuals. If you have the experience, there's no reason to use GFE.

Also GFE introduces instability and perpetual issues like this stuff.

I kinda think of Superfetch or Windows Search when I think of GFE. The computer runs better without them. The minor convenience in a niche scenario for causing problems? Not worth it.
 

scavengerspc

Posts: 2,837   +3,096
TechSpot Elite
The benefit of autotuned settings vs an experienced gamer using what they want? Everyone has different goals with perf and visuals. If you have the experience, there's no reason to use GFE.
I have always had optimization in GFE turned off. I pick my settings in game. As I said earlier, I use it because all 3 settings I could want to use when I use my laptop unplugged are all in one place.
Also GFE introduces instability and perpetual issues like this stuff.
Never had that happen, but I only started using GFE when I started using gaming\desktop replacement laptops. Especially image scaling, which needs GFE to fully utilize.

EDIT: If you use image scaling in the NV control panel you get the 77% image scale. But if you use it through GFE you get this:

image-scaling-geforce-experience.png



I kinda think of Superfetch or Windows Search when I think of GFE. The computer runs better without them. The minor convenience in a niche scenario for causing problems? Not worth it.
I have never had an issue with GFE until 22H2. Nothing, and my computers run better than expected with tuning. Many high-end gaming laptops are pretty much as tunable as an enthusiast desktop.

I have a Lenovo Legion 7 with a 175 watt 3080. and before that I had an MSI GT76 Titan. If you saw the bios on these, you would be hard-pressed to tell the difference with a high-end desktop board. Though admittedly, the actual tuning on my current machine is done within Windows.
 
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Is it just nvidia because I suddenly had the need to reformat after my pc completely pooped the bed. Of course my win 10 server had to rescue my new win11 desktop And this isn’t even the first time and it’s almost 10 years old.
 

m3tavision

Posts: 1,005   +837
@m3tavision So here is what I found. I compared frame rates with FRAPS runs in State of Decay 2 and Dying Light 2 with and without GFE. All runs were within a few frames of the others.

Edit: I just compared Strange Brigade. The differences were nearly identical to the other 2 games, back and forth results with about a 2% difference with the built-in benchmarking tool.

Next I ran 3Dmark. Here is a run with my laptop in June:

Today I ran it after removing GFE, cleaning with a driver cleaner then rebooting:

So I have to conclude that it's this noob that provided the actual facts.
Then I reinstalled GeForce Experience.
It's not about maximum frames, it's about the dips and added frame times.

GFE is not needed, so why are you using it...? "because the graphical interface makes me feel good."
 
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scavengerspc

Posts: 2,837   +3,096
TechSpot Elite
It's not about maximum frames
Funny. It was, back when you said "Because it is just an added layer of unwanted software... just like nvidia filters. All newbie stuff that cuts frames and adds frametimes."
it's about the dips and added frame times.
Absolutely 100% bull. The only thing I can find are people that have shown it hurts frame times when recording with it, when the overlay is present, and most of all when the Nvidia optimization is allowed to change game settings. Which I have never allowed. Just look at the @texasrattler post (#37). He explained it well.
GFE is not needed, so why are you using it.
200w.gif


I already told you, a number of times starting in post #34, and I see no point in taking the time to go into it again.
 
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m3tavision

Posts: 1,005   +837
Funny. It was, back when you said "Because it is just an added layer of unwanted software... just like nvidia filters. All newbie stuff that cuts frames and adds frametimes."

Absolutely 100% bull. The only thing I can find are people that have shown it hurts frame times when recording with it, when the overlay is present, and most of all when the Nvidia optimization is allowed to change game settings. Which I have never allowed. Just look at the @texasrattler post (#37). He explained it well.

200w.gif


I already told you, a number of times starting in post #34, and I see no point in taking the time to go into it again.
I think you are confusing two different things...

max frames, sustained average frames and minimum frames. total FPS is absolutely meaningless because total doesn't measure hiccups, which are those stutters and minimum frames GFE causes. Specially if you use filters.

Gamers can't feel total frames, but they sure do feel minimums and drop-outs in frames while playing. (ie stuttering = frames times).

You are trying to prove yourself right, without understanding everyone in the entire industry already knows this... GFE is for newbies... who don't know how to use Drivers.
 

scavengerspc

Posts: 2,837   +3,096
TechSpot Elite
max frames, sustained average frames and minimum frames. total FPS is absolutely meaningless because total doesn't measure hiccups
I only care about average FPS, 1% and 0.1% lows.
which are those stutters and minimum frames GFE causes.
Nope. There is nothing out there confirming that. Maybe a long time ago when it was new. And I know it was buggy as hell, but that was a different decade.
Right now there are just a bunch of claims but no proof.
But it is worth mentioning that I always keep my PC's razor sharp, clean and uncluttered, so maybe that's why I don't have the problems you have.
Gamers can't feel total frames, but they sure do feel minimums and drop-outs in frames while playing
And it's a good thing GFE doesn't cause those things. For me at least. Who knows, maybe it does with those lacking in knowledge of PC maintenance.
You are trying to prove yourself right, without understanding everyone in the entire industry already knows this
I already know I'm right. And maybe "everyone in the industry" should start mentioning it online because the most I have found is people that whine about it like you without verifying examples.
GFE is for newbies... who don't know how to use Drivers.
I don't use drivers. I install and let them do their thing.
 

m3tavision

Posts: 1,005   +837
I only care about average FPS.

Nope. There is nothing out there confirming that. Maybe a long time ago when it was new. And I know it was buggy as hell, but that was a different decade.
Right now there are just a bunch of claims but no proof.
But it is worth mentioning that I always keep my PC's razor sharp, clean and uncluttered, so maybe that's why I don't have the problems you have.

And it's a good thing GFE doesn't cause those things. For me at least. Who knows, maybe it does with those lacking in knowledge of PC maintenance.

I already know I'm right. And maybe "everyone in the industry" should start mentioning it online because the most I have found is people that whine about it like you without verifying examples.

I don't use drivers. I install and let them do their thing.

If you only care about average FPS then why not accept you are a newbie and like GFE and don't care about nth degree of performance..?

WHy not accept who you are?


And yes, the entire Professional Competitive scene and Streaming Challengers don't use nVidia filters or any of that nonsense, because it eats frames.

Again, you are not arguing with me, but yourself.


Correct, you don't know how to use drivers, that is why you install a wrapper (GFE) so it can be laid out easily, for newbies to understand...
 

scavengerspc

Posts: 2,837   +3,096
TechSpot Elite
If you only care about average FPS then why not accept you are a newbie and like GFE and don't care about nth degree of performance..?

WHy not accept who you are?


And yes, the entire Professional Competitive scene and Streaming Challengers don't use nVidia filters or any of that nonsense, because it eats frames.

Again, you are not arguing with me, but yourself.


Correct, you don't know how to use drivers, that is why you install a wrapper (GFE) so it can be laid out easily, for newbies to understand...
I have an idea. You tell me with your wealth of knowledge what game suffers from having GFE installed. If I don't have it, I will buy it. I will bench it then uninstall GFE, clean it away and bench it again. Give me a link with a game (modern times) that is hurt by GFE.

And I think it's worth mentioning even if I was a newbie, I would consider that a badge of honor.
 

m3tavision

Posts: 1,005   +837
I have an idea. You tell me with your wealth of knowledge what game suffers from having GFE installed. If I don't have it, I will buy it. I will bench it then uninstall GFE, clean it away and bench it again. Give me a link with a game (modern times) that is hurt by GFE.

And I think it's worth mentioning even if I was a newbie, I would consider that a badge of honor.

We have known this since the first day of release for the RTX 3000 series and it's frametimes. With and without GFE.

Do you honestly think that adding more unnecessary software running in the background speeds things up... ?

If it doesn't bother you, then why is it bothering you...? Just play with GFE... you are mostly likely no where near the competitive scene and as you've stated, and you don't need, nor care about absolute frames times.

Other people do...
 

scavengerspc

Posts: 2,837   +3,096
TechSpot Elite
We have known this since the first day of release for the RTX 3000 series and it's frametimes. With and without GFE.

Do you honestly think that adding more unnecessary software running in the background speeds things up... ?

If it doesn't bother you, then why is it bothering you...? Just play with GFE... you are mostly likely no where near the competitive scene and as you've stated, and you don't need, nor care about absolute frames times.

Other people do...
Tell me with your wealth of knowledge what game suffers from having GFE installed.

Average. Highs. 1% or 0.1% lows.