Beerfloat
Posts: 848 +1,573
Well, he was elected by the citizens of Ukraine. Protecting one's country from foreign occupation seems like a core government responsibility, no?
Ukraine urges Tim Cook to block the Apple App Store in Russia
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Well, he was elected by the citizens of Ukraine. Protecting one's country from foreign occupation seems like a core government responsibility, no?
VitalyT
Posts: 6,838 +8,120
People never know who they really elect. It was though his actions that Ukraine fell apart. His predecessor was way better.
Beerfloat
Posts: 848 +1,573
Presumably people knew his predecessor.
VitalyT
Posts: 6,838 +8,120
His predecessor understood that Russia would never let Ukraine join Nato or EU. This one is just too dumb to understand that, playing a US puppet.
Beerfloat
Posts: 848 +1,573
What Russia wants does not seem particularly relevant. Plus it should probably focus on improving living conditions of its own citizens.
captaincranky
Posts: 19,688 +8,827
I have news for you, the last (?) president of Ukraine, was a vastly corrupt Russian puppet. The Ukrainian people got smart and deposed him. After which he went running, with his tail between his legs, right back to Russia for asylum.
He siphoned off billions of dollars from the Ukraine's economy, and strangely enough, that pissed them off...
kiwigraeme
Posts: 2,002 +1,412
For all the people saying Ukraine is not perfect - yeah we get that .
But understand it took over 2000 years for democracy to get hold and start to work . When in my country they changed the election system from First past the post - to multi - party MMP - it took some voters a couple of elections to understand - that who ever the voted for locally was not as important as the party vote - ie you could vote for a Democrat guy for local rep as he fights hard for the district and Vote GOP to control govt .
No country is a true democracy - many have unfair or very swingy voting systems . Most of us have representation democracy and you get the buffet of things wanted or unwanted .
With NZ MMP system you want the Politicians to realize - they need to work together for consensus on most things to create a stable and not chopping and changing when other main party gets in - We don't always get that .
Eg In The USA you will need both parties to buy into Heath Reform
But understand it took over 2000 years for democracy to get hold and start to work . When in my country they changed the election system from First past the post - to multi - party MMP - it took some voters a couple of elections to understand - that who ever the voted for locally was not as important as the party vote - ie you could vote for a Democrat guy for local rep as he fights hard for the district and Vote GOP to control govt .
No country is a true democracy - many have unfair or very swingy voting systems . Most of us have representation democracy and you get the buffet of things wanted or unwanted .
With NZ MMP system you want the Politicians to realize - they need to work together for consensus on most things to create a stable and not chopping and changing when other main party gets in - We don't always get that .
Eg In The USA you will need both parties to buy into Heath Reform
captaincranky
Posts: 19,688 +8,827
Well, in reality, Trump never won the 2016 election. Hillary Clinton beat him fair and square in the popular vote. A trick of the electoral college, put him in office.
This "irrefutable evidence of election fraud", you speak of, was thrown out of court, of say, 65 times, including cases in front of SCOTUS. (Which BTW, is populated by 3 (three) of his appointees.
So, for Biden & the Democrats to have "committed election fraud", they would had to have gotten the entire federal court system involved and complicit. Does that seem like a reality you're willing to embrace? If your answer is "yes", it's very disappointing.
Also, Dominion's lawsuit $1.6 billion dollar lawsuit against Fox News and its anchors, has been green lit to proceed by yet another federal court:
Dominion Voting wins key decision in lawsuit against Fox News
A judge in Delaware has found that Fox News' coverage of election fraud after the 2020 election may have been inaccurate, and is allowing a major defamation case against the right-wing TV network to move forward.
www.cnn.com
It's time you let this whole "election fraud" thing go, for your own mental health's sake.
But, as you've likely already figured out, since you're a venerable and respected member of this community, I'm always here for you, in whatever capacity the situation demands
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captaincranky
Posts: 19,688 +8,827
Yeah I know, right? It's the entire world against poor little Vladimir. :
Who, BTW, is the former head of the KGB, a psychotic megalomaniac, suffering a severe mid life crisis, with paranoid delusions of grandeur.
If you're naive enough to not realize, (or admit), that this is the tip of Nazi Germany's, "Operation Barbarossa" played backwards, I kind of feel sorry for you.
Why would anybody sanction Russia? Gee, I don't know. I suppose possibly because the Berlin Wall wasn't taken down until November 9, 1989, a full 44 years after the end of WWII. And Ronald Reagan, (for whatever he was worth), had to beg Gorbachev to do so.
You can troll all the kiddies here you want, but keep in mind, I lived through all these events, so it won't be as easy, (or even possible) to dupe me.
I'm here for ya buddy.
In fact, here's some nice protest music for you, to kick back and reflect upon;
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captaincranky
Posts: 19,688 +8,827
"Green Go" = "Gringo", (At least that's how I think that came about).
Slavery was over in the US 155 years ago. But then, who's counting?
Well, in reality, Trump never won the 2016 election. Hillary Clinton beat him fair and square in the popular vote. A trick of the electoral college, put him in office.
This "irrefutable evidence of election fraud", you speak of, was thrown out of court, of say, 65 times, including cases in front of SCOTUS. (Which BTW, is populated by 3 (three) of his appointees.
So, for Biden & the Democrats to have "committed election fraud", they would had to have gotten the entire federal court system involved and complicit. Does that seem like a reality you're willing to embrace? If your answer is "yes", it's very disappointing.
Also, Dominion's lawsuit $1.6 billion dollar lawsuit against Fox News and its anchors, has been green lit to proceed by yet another federal court:
Dominion Voting wins key decision in lawsuit against Fox News
A judge in Delaware has found that Fox News' coverage of election fraud after the 2020 election may have been inaccurate, and is allowing a major defamation case against the right-wing TV network to move forward.
It's time you let this whole "election fraud" thing go, for your own mental health's sake.
But, as you've likely already figured out, since you're a venerable and respected member of this community, I'm always here for you, in whatever capacity the situation demands
Yes the Federal court system is EXTREMELY compromised. Until you wake up and acknowledge that simple truth, you're going to be led around by your nose.
In the 2000 Gore-Bush election, Democrats correctly pointed out that Diebold voting machines were owned by a friend of George Bush. But now Democrats do everything possible to prevent an audit of Dominion, a foreign owned corporation. Why is the Left supporting big corporations? That's the direct opposite of traditional Leftist values.
Zuckerberg spent $415 million dollars to influence the swing states. That's almost half a BILLION DOLLARS. Since when is it ok for a single, ultra rich individual to spend that amount of money on an election? Trump has correctly called for a full audit into how that money was spent. The traditional Left from the 1960's and 70's would have been fully on board with Trump's request. But now they're cozying up to the big corporations.
ALL elections should be fully auditable. Anyone who opposes that is essentially a traitor.
captaincranky
Posts: 19,688 +8,827
And Gore conceded like a gentleman, in spite of any concerns about voting machines. Now, tell me how that compares in any way with this a**hole Trump's actions?
Hey, I voted for him in 2016. That's a blunder I'll never make twice.
If you can't make it on job performance, (or lack thereof), claim the election was rigged.
The Republicans did just fine down ballot, it was Trump Americans were getting rid of..... And they did.
How many lies and how much skewed propaganda did the Republican PACs put out? I'll wager at least as much as Zuckerberg.. So, spare me the "poor Donnie" stories.
In 2020, after four years of his pathological lying, I would have voted for "Mr. Potato Head" as opposed to Trump..
If you don't like or agree with the outcome of the election, go storm the Capitol. Threaten to kill Mike Pence, do something constructive for god's sake, instead of regurgitating the same old garbage.
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Honestly, I see no reason to hit the country with sanctions because of a few people's decision. What did the people do wrong here? Did they incite the war? Maybe, but certainly not all. The people at the top are the ones that made that decision(s). Which nations' leader/ authority nowadays will take heed of the voice of the people that they are meant to serve?
Squid Surprise
Posts: 5,602 +5,233
How else do you suggest the west combat Russia short of actual war? Countries are accountable for their leader's actions. That's why democracies are preferable to dictatorships - when your leader does stuff you don't like, you have the chance to remove them (see: Trump).
Unfortunately, in a dictatorship, the only way to remove a leader tends to be through force...
wiyosaya
Posts: 9,764 +9,650
While I agree that the US and other western countries are not angels, given a choice, I would still choose them. It seems obvious that Putin has not allowed a true democratic election in quite some time, that alone says something. For the time being, the US still has free and fair elections - although I would argue that the US came close to being one of those countries where a free and fair election was reduced to a BS talking point and thrown out the window.
Would this ban have an effect on Russia, probably. Would it be the intended effect, I have no idea. My guess is that it might hurt those who are innocent more than it would hurt those people think it should hurt.
wiyosaya
Posts: 9,764 +9,650
It seems that this might just be the downfall of Putin that most sane people have been hoping for for a long, long time.
wiyosaya
Posts: 9,764 +9,650
I think it easy to argue that when Gorbachov was in, it was headed in that direction. Unfortunately, Putin totally reversed any progress toward freedom. He needs to go, and perhaps the good thing that will come of this is that Putin will have cooked his own goose.
Squid Surprise
Posts: 5,602 +5,233
One can only hope... If you study Russian history though, every time things look like they "are getting better", it ends up getting worse instead...
wiyosaya
Posts: 9,764 +9,650
Irrefutable proof was NEVER presented in any of the 60+ court cases. If there is so much irrefutable proof, why was it not presented in the court cases?
With such proof, presented in court, the story might have been different. Even decidedly partisan election audits, run by republicans, no less, found no evidence of the claimed wide-spread fraud. There are no such court cases where irrefutable proof was presented. All the proof that is still out there is simply Trump saying "there was so much fraud. Believe me, I know, and there was fraud because I say so". That does not qualify as proof; it does, however, qualify as propaganda.
wiyosaya
Posts: 9,764 +9,650
IMO, Russians need to find a way to remove the stain of Vladimir Putin from office by any means necessary. The sanctions are the only way of putting pressure on Putin and encourage him to stop his insanity.
captaincranky
Posts: 19,688 +8,827
I fondly remember his predecessor, Nikita Khrushchev, pounding on the desk with his shoe at the UN.
But that was probably a deep fake perpetrated by the lefties. Did they have deep fakes back then? Wait here, while I go ask Trump. He'll know.
captaincranky
Posts: 19,688 +8,827
Maybe they'll quietly put-im out to pasture, where he'll be able to gently bang his horse, without the stress of being a malevolent.dictator.
wiyosaya
Posts: 9,764 +9,650
Agreed. Especially since Trump/McConnell nominated and approved three partisan hacks to SCOTUS.
Censored, really? Those baseless claims are still being made daily on various conservative media outlets. As for irrefutable proof we are still waiting as no one has presented any irrefutable proof to date that has been recognized by an legal court of law.
Squid Surprise
Posts: 5,602 +5,233
Fortunately, they mostly provide natural resources like oil... but I do know that Ontario has pulled Russian Vodka off of the shelves...
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