I am going to be returning to college in August after 2 years of absence. I have narrowed my choices down to the following:

Computer Programming
Internet Technologies
Network Administration
Computer Engineering

As far as programming I am really interested in taking it but I am not sure I want to have programming as a job. If I decide on something else then I will be taking programming classes on the side for my learning benefit.

I have a job in the "internet technology" field at the moment working for an ISP so I have experience and having a degree in this area may be of great benefit to me also. The same thing for Network Administration.

Would greatly appreciate some input on this matter.

Thanks.

the market is hot

:rolleyes:

I'll pretend that helped.

:grinthumb

LMAO ...................

A career in IT is NOT a good place to be at the moment. There are few jobs available, even for experienced professionals, and many qualified IT graduates are still out of work. Having an education is good, but as far as careers go, employers tend to be more interested in experience, rather than qualifications. If you wish to carry on with a career in IT after you graduate, then it might be worth doing some research so that you pick the skills that are growing in demand, and that will feature strongly in the IT industry. Good luck with your career move. Hope you have better luck than I've had in an IT career. Sorry to be so negative.

However, there ARE STILL IT JOBS - and IT is a very rewarding industry to work in, at least in terms of intellectual rewards. There's just so much to learn and do.

Although the industry is in a downturn at the moment (basically, the word never ended because of Y2K and now people take a lot of things in the computer world with more of a pinch of salt, plus this "threat" flooded the market with a whole bunch of crappy people.)

I expect this to change again. The poor jobs market will cause a lot of people who took to computing not because they liked it but because there was jobs there to move to another market, and leave the "real techs" to it. Then things will get better.

Also, its a big mistake to think that there are no IT jobs. There are a great number of them. Its just a bit of a problem progressing your career at the moment. But as I said, I expect that to change in the next few years again.

As to what choice to make, its a tough one, but have a good think, and a good look in your heart, and pick the thing you are most interesting in. Not being interested in something is death in any profession.

In the UK, the number of jobs that are advertised in 2002 fell by 76% from that in 2001 (i.e. number of jobs down to less than one quarter the previous year - I can supply links if anyone is interested).

With the large number of people being pushed into IT jobs, by the government, many are without work. There is vast over supply and too few jobs for those that are looking for a career in IT.

Should the market start to recover, then there is still a backlog of qualified staff with which you will have to compete for work. Its true that there are still some jobs available, but these tend to be towards the higher end of the experience scale, rather than the lower end.

Believe me, its true, as I am currently unemployed (one year and counting) despite having nearly three years software development experience, and despite being very talented (so other people tell me), and despite having a masters degree in software engineering.

The jobs simply aren't there, and the few that do turn up will have literaly hundreds of applications with which you will have to compete. A friend of mine applied for one particular job and later found out that there had been over four hundred applicants for that position.

Don't get me wrong, I love IT and wouldn't swap for anything else, but at the end of the day, you had better be prepared for a shock.

So, what do you suggest? I get a degree in flipping burgers?

Hands-on experience, perhaps a techinical college might help?

No, don't bother flipping burgers, but do your degree is you really are interested in IT. Things should improve eventually, though you may end up doing other work before you eventually get back into IT.

Maybe you could consider doing your degree part-time, so that you still have an income, and allow the jobs market time to recover.

If you are really keen to have a career in IT then by all means do it, but if you are going to have to borrow money to get you through your course, then you may find it difficult to pay back your loan afterwards. Something to bear in mind.

Do some research to see what skills will be in demand when you graduate, so that you have the best chance of success.

As far as getting in the IT industry. I'm already there, because I work for an ISP doing everything such as network/Windows 2000 Server/Win2K troubleshooting, administration, billing, technical support, marketing, graphic/web/advertising design, etc. Pretty much everything that is needed here I do it. Also, soon I am probably going to be working two IT jobs. I have a cousin that owns a business doing networking/repair/etc. So I am probably going to help him on the side to learn some more and gain some more experience. This will going to school and working a full time job.

What I make here I think would be more than enough to pay my way through college without needing to pay anything back later on. Though I may be wrong, but my guess is I can go without financial aid. I'm actually already paying back financial aid right now from the last college I was in (about $2500).

There IS actually another industry I would rather be in but we all know that being a professional musician is an even more bloodthirsty profession where instead of worrying about unemployment for a few years, in that industry you have a 1 out a 1 million chance of ever even making it INTO the industry. Then you have to worry about making millions of fans happy so that you can record that next album. Then when you do record the next album you get accused of "going pop" or "going alternative" or disappointing your loyal fans by not doing what they say is right. (I really hate how fans get upset because bands like Metallica experiment with music -- something they love and in turn go from fast metal to more alternative metal, I mean... bands owe fans nothing. You paid your $18 for the CD and you can always listen to it. What the band does next is their business.)

You mentioned doing something that I like doing. Programming I am very interested in learning, like I said though I'm not sure I would like doing it as a job. Networking wouldnt be so bad and I wouldnt mind too much going to school for it.

I think I may still go the programming route though due to the fact that a programming major can also get you other jobs too not just in programming jobs, and I could later on go for a bachelors and possibly end up working for some gaming company. (I said POSSIBLY, lol).

you want to be on design teams for video games..........it's the only bright spot in the market.......ea stock is rising dramtically...................it's a growing sector..........many interviews available regarding richard"levelord"gray........for me, i think that would be a blast...........and, to get paid.....schweeeeeet..................but, go ahead and bang away for ibm, it'll probably be safer.......and stick it brussels sprout(alex):grinthumb

lol, dude I think I've got a pretty long time before I can even consider trying to get into a company like EA. That's IF I'm even lucky enough to make it into a company like that in 10 years.

First of all, i think JSR you should clam down and stop doing that silly ..... post..... yo do...... or .... stop taking... mmmm.... drugs.... ¿??

Back to where we go:

The IT industry is a bit overwhelmed, mostly in countries like germany, USA, uk... and so on. I'm inside the industry, i have 18 years old and I have 2 years inside the software development industry, mainly ASP.NET and VB.NET related stuff. What I can say, considering that for what I the poeple and my customers think of my work, and my monthly income, the job market for this sector has droped 75% since the internet boom, but the truth is that the 75% of "IT professionals" are not good, don't have interest, or are inside their profession because they thought that the internet boom would make them rich. I currently live in the Dominican Republic, where things are even worse, I just work 16 hours a day cause I have so many work, mostly work that other people did that are rubish. I think there is always place for good employees, in whatever their industry they are working.

The problem is also experience, if you can show a solid experience/works you did, then that's add points for you. Global economy is pretty f*****d up, but people still need intranets, websites, applications and databases. New companies are coming to the market as fast as the ones that get out of it.

About the game developer market... I don't know how it's, but it depends on area. It's not only programming, it's design, 3d modelling, audio mastering...etc. I just think it's a very unstable market and with very high standards.

If you are currently working in that ISP you mention, before taking a chance on it, analyze what future can the isp have and what opportunities you will be able to choose from.

Well as far as working for a gaming company and it not being JUST programming, I have more experience in the rest than programming.

I went to college for computer animation, and literally was top in my class. I downloaded 3D Studio Max and within 2 weeks was ahead of everyone in my entire class, the same with Photoshop. I also am a musician so I've done a lot of sound editing and sound creation (as far as actual music). Video editing is something else I'm interested in and was good at. All those things combined make for some fun work.

aren't you the most downloaded woman in porn?.......always someone with their panties in a bunch..............oh well, acid, just a thought............a journey of a thousand steps begins with the first..........grasshopper........ i just know that i'd like to be excited about where is was heading in life..........instead of fillin' in some void for the bucks......and, i'd like to know, that it wasn't a dead end road............goodluck & cyaaaaaa

what the hell are you talking about? whos panties are in a wad???

... sounds like a career in 3D modelling within the games industry might just be your thing. The industry is always on the lookout for animation staff, so if thats what you enjoy, and as you already said, its something you appear to be good at, then its certainly worth a go. You may end up having to move location in order to find work, but that's life, and if things don't quite work out, then you may still be able to find remployment back in technical support.

some ppl get really annoying by taking the discussion away from the real point ....

and NO jsr, i'm not a brussels sprout :p living in Brussels now, that's all :thefinger

Nic: Yes, I would love a job in that type of field; 3d modeling, game programming, etc. The problem is and was for example when I was in college that I wasn't that good at drawing. I can draw well, IF I take 4-5 hours on one drawing (if I look at something and draw from it), but the industry demands that you be able to do a drawing like that, from your own imagination quickly; sometimes in under 20 minutes. That is the barrier I face as far as that type of job. If I could get into something like 3D modeling and not have to do any of the drawing I know I would do well. I just couldn't keep up with my classmates in classes such as Drawing for Animators, but they couldnt keep up with me in classes like Photoshop and 3D Studio Max.

I'm looking into getting SoftImage XSI here soon since I have Linux installed. It will be fun to take a look at and play around with.

One thing I've wanted to do ever since I moved back from Tampa (when I was in college) is get back into that kind of school. The problem I face with this is; the ability to move and have the money to do it, so the idea I have is to get a job in another field such as programming or networking and pay my way through a college like Gnomon 3D in California. But then again therein lies another problem. Gnomon requires that you submit a high quality portfolio of drawings, which I dont have and nor have the ability to create.

It is a very exciting industry to be in, and it was also very very exciting to go to a school for animation, to see firsthand the kinds of things you would be doing working for a company like Valve, ILM, or film companys doing special FX for movies. The excitement just never stops (at least for me) in an environment like that.

Forget about becoming a games programmer, as you'll need to be extremely good and VERY experienced (it takes years) before you even get looked at. You'll also have to work VERY long hours, and the money isn't that great either. Gnomon do have video tutorials that they sell, so you don't necessarilly need to attend classes. There are also courses that can teach you how to draw, but just like being a musician, it will take some time. In this game, it is you portfolio that will get you a job rather than any college degree, so you could just study in your spare time until you get there.

Hey Acid, I think you've heard my point of view on the IRC channel but just in case... I really hated the "Industry" where they treat you like a piece of equipment and if times slow down, which they do at least once a year they lay you off and if you didn't suck too bad they rehire you 3-6 months later. I remember being asked by my boss for my "5 year plan" and the company went out of business within 3 years. Try to get a government job in IT. City, county, state of Fed; the pay isn't that great to start but the retirement and other benifits are far better. Ive been working for a city in my area for 15 years and plan to retire from there. Other than MS I don't think any company will last 15 years or more.

I think you could already qualify based on your job history but you can always get more training at a community college to fill in areas that you don't feel well rounded in. (I plan on going back for some courses in system and network administration, Cisco router management, and cabling next year, just for fun) Heh, I don't even work in IT, but given the trend in traffic control systems it's almost the same. I'm currently installing, managing and maintaining a dual NT server, 10 workstation, plus 100 instersection control and 20 PTZ video camera network. Next step is hooking it up to the city WAN and serving data to the internet.

Anyway, good luck Acid.

Ok if you read my previous posts you would notice that I did say it takes years to get into that kind of work.

I would l would listen well to Nic. A college education is very importent but one should cover the bases and get a trade as well. Then if things don't work out you will have options. Its a tuff job market but plumbers, electricians, computer techs, ect. always seem to be busy. My friends who are tradesmen all have a great deal of money to spend on houses, vehicles, computers (for their kids of course ) and vacations.

Here is an example: My brother is a structural engineer who designs big buildings like banks, stores ect. He is very smart and has tons of college. He makes around 45k/year.

My other bro is an architect with even more college and huge college debt. He makes 35k

My sis does a bit better 80k though her debts to school are huge. She's a family doctor but since she works at a christian ministry she makes a bit less than most docs.

I have a friend at the local utility co.. He works as a lineman and pulls in 100k+

I bait hooks for a living and at 90k+ I can afford any damn computer I want and I only work six months a year.

Sure I went to school but I like to fish.



Play with computers, they are a great hobby.

After some thought I think I should modify what I just said. There probably are a lot of dream jobs in computing that require a degree. If rendering, or writing code is your thing then you should study for that. Just remember to get a good trade to carry you through when you are between computer jobs.

If you are very hard working and have entrepeneurial talents you may be able to develope a cool company like Falcon Northwest or Dell.
I know someone who starts small resteraunts/diners builds them up and sells them for profit.
Anyways, follow your dreams. I did.
good luck

My company is shipping 25% of all IT to India this year. I think this is the norm for large, greedy, American companies at least where IT is concerned. Some companies have moved all of their IT to India over the past couple of years.
Having worked in the IT Industry for about 13 years, let's just say that I know a lot of people out of work. The amazing thing is how many of the good people get laided off while the bad ones stay around.
I would focus on IT-related paths that are harder to ship overseas. Those are things like networking, security, project management, etc... While some of these jobs may move overseas the majority should remain.

There are subtle improvements in the state of the IT industry, of late, at least according to any business report programs that I watch on cable. Anyway, I think by the time you have done your degree, the job market will have greatly improved.

Have a good, hard think about the course you will be doing, because that will shape your carreer. The main criteria for the choice is something that you enjoy doing, and can see yourself doing for 8 hours a day, 5 days a week. Don't just look for one thing like money, ot job satisfaction, etc, but instead look for something that seems overall a happy place for you to be. Choose carefully and wisely.

Originally posted by Elcarion ...
My company is shipping 25% of all IT to India this year. I think this is the norm for large, greedy, American companies at least where IT is concerned. Some companies have moved all of their IT to India over the past couple of years.
There is a time bomb ticking, and most of these 'well intentioned' companies don't realise it yet. Just think about it, if companies start moving IT offshore to save money, then why not move everything else offshore as well? Its the next logical step.

What they don't realise is that by moving all these skilled jobs offshore, everyone else will have nothing left to do except low skilled jobs that pay crap salaries.

Eventually, we will all become a nation of unskilled workers with low wealth generation for the nation, and the third world countries will have their roles reversed and become richer than the west.

Why not move all high paid jobs overseas? The same reasoning as applies to IT is equally applicable to other skilled jobs. Its not just jobs moving overseas, but staff are also recruited on contract from overseas.

This practice should really be made illegal if we are all to protect our ecomomy over the longer term. One day everyone will wake up and realise that it is too late.

I don't have a problem with having manufacturing work done overseas, when it can't be done locally, but I don't believe that it is good to do this as a permanent solution where skilled labour is concerned. The end result be that we will all become unskilled, as no jobs will exist for highly skilled workers, and as a result we will no longer lead the world in technology fields.

That's an interesting idea, but to move all of these skilled jobs abroad, you have to have a well educated populace. Let's face it - people in some of these countries are more worried about where their next meal is comming from, never mind learning to read and write, and certainly never mind learning to write C# code or doing RDBMS.

There are a lot of highly skilled graduates in India that will work for peanuts, thats why IT has started to move offshore. The skills are already there - we should all be worried.

Look what happened to manufacturing. Now the same is happening to IT. What next?

I don't think its quite reached that stage yet. I think it could. That's not to say that it will happen - and I certainly don't hope that it does - but it could.

Only legislation can stop it. The drive for compaies to remain competitive with their competitors is too strong to stop. Once the process starts there is no stopping it, though it won't happen overnight. The law needs to make it illegal, and that way no company will have any advantage over their competitors, so the landslide of skills moving overseas will stop.

However... and I sense a darkside moment comming on... what's to stop me from moving abroad to chase that work??

Low wages. Thats the only reason for work moving abroad in the first place. If you don't mind working for a bag of rice a day (excuse the slight exaggeration) then you're welcome to move.

In fact, we'll all be exchanging places with out compatriots in India. They will all come over here, and we will all move over there. The transition will then be complete.

You do have a point. However, I doubt that its quite as bad. And a good quality of life does cost less in some other countries. However, one has to weigh all of that up against the presence of flies, smells, and beggers. Let's be honest. Oh, and the cruel glare of the sun.

The job to be in right now, is plumbing. We can't get plumbers here. They are knocking back work.

Oh no, if you are looking for money, computing isn't the place to be right now. I only suggest a career in the IT industry right now if it is something that you are interested in. And good at. if not, you might as well be a plumber because they are earning a lot more than me right now.

I don't expect this situation to continue indefinately, nor do I completely subscribe to Nic's views, however I think he has a good point and its something that we need to think about.

Something you need to realise is that once skills move overseas, it won't be long before innovation also starts happening overseas, and all of us that are still here will have a very much harder time competing with the new emerging economies.

PS: I should imagine that it is even more difficult to find a good plumber in India. :)

But surely you don't think that any day now the whole IT industry is going to up and move away from the UK to go to India, or something? That kind of effect is a gradual shift, that comes to the attention of governments and what not, who have the power to pass legislation, as you mentioned.

Now, from what I have heard on various current affairs programs, etc, there are already a few minute signs of a recovery in the IT industry in the West. It will take time, but I think things will get better. The business has had its ups and downs before, and although there will always be threats, I don't think we are necessarily sitting on the cusp of the demise of IT in the Western World. I just think that an IT industry and infrastructure shall SPREAD to countries like India, even Africa in time.

Just to be clear. I am not against other countries developing themselves to be as well off as the west. I am only against making our own skilled workforce jobless and unskilled by exporting skilled work overseas. We all need to bear the higher costs of supporting our own labour market, as that is where our wealth as a nation is indirectly generated.

There are two distinct procesess going on. The recovery in the IT sector is from a stock market crash and lack of investment. The second independent process is moving highly skilled work overseas, where it can be done more cheaply. Both processes are running concurrently at the moment. Government is already aware of discontent from the workforce in regard to work moving offshore, and there have already been calls for action. So far all has fallen on deaf ears.

Offshore outsourcing shrinks services prices (http://www.computerweekly.com/articles/article.asp?liArticleID=122907&liFlavourID=1)

quote:
... Forty-two per cent of all active outsourcing engagements have an offshore component, and offshore outsourcing will "continue to spread to new segments and deepen its hold on the industry", IDC said ...

Importing skills: at what cost to the future? (http://www.computerweekly.com/articles/article.asp?liArticleID=122364&liArticleTypeID=20&liCategoryID=2&liChannelID=30&liFlavourID=1&sSearch=&nPage=1)

quote:
... Unemployment levels are standing at record levels in the IT workforce at about 46,000 for IT staff and 30,000 for self-employed contractors, so why are UK employers looking overseas? ...

Your shout: On outsourcing (http://www.computerweekly.com/articles/article.asp?liArticleID=122585&liArticleTypeID=13&liCategoryID=2&liChannelID=16&liFlavourID=1&sSearch=&nPage=1)

quote:
... Many of my friends see IT as a dead-end career and are advising their children not to go into it - what is the point of getting skilled up only to find that you are undercut by nations that can afford to price you out, with the advantage of a lower cost of living and an endless supply of literate, well-educated workers? ...

The other practice that my company is supposedly engaging in is highering foreign nationals here in the US then holding their work visa hostage. They get similar results: People willing to work long, hard hours for less pay. They're also a very big contributor to the two political parties....probably just a coincidence... :-(

These people are all idiots. We are ALL going to be out of work someday, and it won't even be worth going to college because there won't be any good paying jobs available to help repay your depts.

The west will become unskilled and fall behind the rest of the world due to poor education because it won't pay to get educated (even if you are one of the lucky few to find a job after graduating).

While there continues to be a drive towards cost cutting through paying low wages there won't be any incentive to innovate or go beyond the call of duty at work. It simply won't pay. Time to take up plumbing while there is still a demand.

What ever happened to the idea that the west will be doing all the high tech work, while other countries do all the manufacturing. Looks like that view was wrong, and in fact well all be doing manual work for low wages in the not so distant future.

Listen, a good education is never a waste.

Originally posted by bedlam_4
Listen, a good education is never a waste. Very true, and I hope that many would still regard college as worthwhile. I would certainly do it all over again, even without a job to look forward to after graduating (... please excuse the doom & gloom, but thats the way things are right now ...).

A good education is the most important thing you can do for yourself, so I hope that anyone considering going to college to study will not be detered by the current crisis in the IT jobs market. Just don't go stretching your finances too far so that you will be in a lot of debt when you graduate.

It takes knowledge and a good education to innovate, and it is innovation that drives the prosperity of any nation.

Here is what SAP CEO, Henning Kagermann, says about this ...

Innovate to create recovery and fuel growth, says SAP CEO (http://www.computerweekly.com/articles/article.asp?liArticleID=122721&liFlavourID=1)

AMD completes Indian outsourcing move (http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=10192)

Microsoft does u-turn, exports US jobs to India (http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=10280)

are going overseas........cutting edge education is your only hope the world doesn't overtake us.......regardless, all things being equal.....they will work for less........thank god i'm a landscaper..........the grass just keeps on growin':grinthumb

This one's pretty alarming ...

Australian students warned there's no future in IT - the inquirer (http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=10396)

Forget IT, Australian students told - original article (http://www.zdnet.com.au/newstech/hr/story/0,2000048610,20276063,00.htm)

quote:
A SURVEY of the Australian technology industry has revealed that excessive outsourcing of information technology jobs means that students in the country may as well abandon hope of a career in the computer industry.

According to the report, in ZD Net Australia, the survey of IT managers revealed despondency and gloom about the future.

A staggering 90 per cent of the managers said they wouldn't suggest IT is a good career move. Indeed, it's a career limiting move (CLM).

Too many skilled techies are on the dole and the continued "outsourcing" of jobs means people are fighting for job scraps that fall off the IT kitchen table to feed.