Acronis creates file for DVD that’s too big for DVD?

[LookinAround]

Some specs:
>> My burning s/w: NTI CD&DVD Maker 7.7.0.1100
>> My burner: ATAPI DVD DD 2X16X4X16 w/firmware G7Z9 housed in a USB 2.0 connected enclosure I bought
>> OS: XP SP3 w/all updates

Facts and Issues
I use Acronis True Image to ghost my hard drive. It includes an option to split my HD backup image file into multiple smaller files each of which is supposed to fit on DVD. Yet when I drag one of these files to NTI (so I can burn it) NTI says the file is too big for the DVD device.

Using XP I see these file sizes when i look at the Acronis file supposedly good to burn on DVD
>> With Windows Explorer
===> Size: 4,550,820KB
>> But right click the file Properties says
===> Size: 4.33GB (4,660,039,168 byes)
===> Size on disk: 4.33GB (4,660,039,680)

Questions:
1. I understand why Size vs. Size on disk are different number but why does Explorer and File Properties differ on size?
2. And is this file REALLY too big for DVD?? After Acronis splits it to fit on DVD?

 

[Tmagic650]

What type of back up file? ISO?

 

[LookinAround]

Acronis ghost backup files use a proprietary format (.tib extension) whether it creates one large one (or breaks them into multiple, DVD sized files, each has the .tib extension)

I believe each file should be treated as a data file and i have NTI set to create/burn a DVD from data.
>> I've also (since last posted) tried changing the target DVD Properties from Joliet (default) to UDF filesystem. But still the same "file too big for DVD" problem

 

[Tmagic650]

Why don't you try using the "trial" version of Alcohol 120% for this task

 

[LookinAround]

Thx. I will try using that or at least some other burn software for the task (see if i get same or different results)
>> Or you recommend Alcohol for any particular reason?

I was going to also uninstall reinstall NTI again as i could swear i successfully burned my Acronis files before.. but wondering if that was before any of the NTI patch releases i've applied.

In any case, thx for the help

 

[Tmagic650]

Alcohol 120% will burn just about anything. You can burn images that are made to fit on a CD or DVD easily... Its about $50 for the program with lifetime updates now. You used to have to renew it every year for $35 a pop

 

[LookinAround]

OK. Thanks!

Will specifically try that one when i next get to working on the problem again

 

[LookinAround]

Hmmm..

Just downloaded Alcohol 120%. But it seems to want to do stuff with images (create an image or burn an image, etc) vs. creating a DVD based on the data files i want burned to DVD?

i skimmed through the helped pages... don't know if i didn't see it? or does it handle burning a DVD after giving it a set of data files?

/* EDIT */
Hmm.. some continued looking and found some ifno that (and appears true for any burning software): You must set DVD burn software to use UDF filesystem or else there's a 2GB limit to any single file size. In my case, I've set to it UDF but the filesize Acronis chose seems larger then what NTI stills want to burn. Couldn't find if Alcohol would burn data files...

 

[Tmagic650]

Ok I only use Alcohol 120% for back up discs and using it to create and burn CD/DVD images. I have never had any issues with image size. Alcohol 120% takes care of this

 

[LookinAround]

Alcohol 120% looks like a pretty cool / handy tool (and i've certainly read much good stuff about it) just looks like it doesn't cover my very specific data needs in this case.

Which may well be because of Acronis in the first place as even my NTI software won't handle my current issue! in any case, i again thank you for the assistance (and will post back if i ever find the exact issue and/or data file size max that might apply for my case)

 

[Tmagic650]

That's ok LookinAround,
at least we gave it a shot... I have purchased Alcohol 120% about 3 times in the last 5 years. The update subscription had to be paid again and again every year in the past. Now it is finally a one time $50 charge forever

 

[Rick]

Using XP I see these file sizes when i look at the Acronis file supposedly good to burn on DVD
>> With Windows Explorer
===> Size: 4,550,820KB
>> But right click the file Properties says
===> Size: 4.33GB (4,660,039,168 byes)
===> Size on disk: 4.33GB (4,660,039,680)

Interesting. I haven't ever really cared much about this -- and I think this is unnecessarily confusing -- but here's what I believe is going on:

==> 4.33GB
This value is not gigabytes (GB). 1 gigabyte = 1000 megabytes. Rather, it is actually Gibibytes [GiB] (Binary gigabytes). There are 1024 mebibytes (MiB) or 1074 megabytes [MB] in a GiB.

==> 4,550,820KB
This number is 4.33GiB represented as kibibytes [Kib], not kilobytes [KB].

==> 4,660,039,168KB
This is awfully close to the 4.33GiB being represented as kilobytes. I'm not too sure about this one. I'm inclined to believe this value includes file system overhead (data doesn't always fit perfectly in typical NTFS 4096KiB clusters) and may give a larger number. It would be *really* odd if MS chose to use binary bytes and then give non-binary bytes in parenthesis.

So, I think Microsoft chose to use KiB, MiB and GiB interally because of digital storage reasons, but KB, MB and GB were just easier for everyone to gasp. The latter is also the same system HDD manufacturers use (disappointingly). So while MS uses true binary byte measures internally, they mistakenly label them as human friendly, non-binary bytes.

Anyway, will it fit on a DVD? Yeah, it should. Blank DVDs are about 4.38GiB in size. You'll have to use a UDF file system on your DVDs though, to burn them because the standard ISO 9660 file system cannot access files larger than 2GiB (I think).

 

[Tmagic650]

From Wikipedia:
"A kibibyte (a contraction of kilo binary byte, pronounced KEE-bee-byte) is a unit of information or computer storage, established by the International Electrotechnical Commission in 2000. Its symbol is KiB.[1] It was designed to replace the "kilobyte" in computer science, when used to mean 1024 bytes, which conflicts with the SI definition of the prefix "kilo".

1 kibibyte = 210 bytes = 1,024 bytes
The kibibyte is closely related to the kilobyte, which can be used either as a synonym for kibibyte or to refer to 103 bytes = 1,000 bytes (see binary prefix).

Usage of these terms is intended to avoid the confusion, common in describing storage media, as to the ambiguous meaning of "kilobyte". Thus the term kibibyte has been defined to refer exclusively to 1,024 bytes.

The confusion if kilobyte is used to refer to both 1,000 and 1,024 bytes became more substantial when hard drives grew to gigabyte and larger units. If one expects power-of-two values to refer to capacity, and manufacturers use power-of-ten values, the difference could be substantial. With a kilobyte (1,024 versus 1,000), the difference is 2.4%. With the megabyte (1,024² or 1,048,576, versus 1,000,000) the percentage difference becomes 4.9%. With "gigabytes", if one uses 1024³, the size of a drive would be expected to be 1,073,741,824 bytes per gigabyte versus a mere 1,000,000,000 — a difference of 7.4%.

Confusion can be compounded by the use of both 1,024 and 1,000 in a single definition. The quoted capacity of 3½ inch HD floppy disks is 1.44 MB, where MB stands for 1000 times 1024 bytes. The total capacity is thus 1,474,560 bytes, or approximately 1.41 MiB.

 

[gguerra]

In order to eliminate the possible confusion over gigabytes and binary gigabytes here is the breakdown in actual bytes

DVD-R
4,707,319,808 bytes

DVD+R:
4,700,372,992 bytes

So what is probably affecting your ability to burn the file is the overhead in the file system used. Have you tried changing the file system?

There are three different file systems , ISO9660 Joliet, UDF and I wont get into the differences here. It is just something that I thought about.

Once you burn the DVD, make sure you can read before you delete your back up files and more importantly make sure Acronis can read it.

 

[LookinAround]

Thanks to all for the replies! I'll best sum up by saying:

1) I've (admittedly) avoided taking the "systems engineering" perspective: and doing all the math to determine the exact number of bytes VS.
2) Choosing to simply take the "user" perspective and faulting (i think is most likely) Acronis for defaulting to splitting its archive backup to DVD file sizes a bit too large to simply and easily get burned. My immediate solution:
....>> For my existing Acronis archives: Splitting them with freeware tools to simply reduce their file size
....>> For NEW Acronis archives: I'll manually enter my own file size max (vs. using their default)

As to selecting the right filesystem for DVD, just thought i'd confirm i've selected UDF (and will also confirm finding - as you guys mentioned - only UDF will allow for including a data file whose size greater then 2GB) And i use the term GB here loosely! So is approx 2GB (use the unit interpretation of choice!)