AMD's Mantle API not compatible with the Xbox One

By Scorpus
Oct 14, 2013
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  1. AMD captivated PC gamers around the world last month with the announcement of Mantle, a brand new API designed to fully unlock the graphics potential of their Graphics Core Next (GCN) architecture. Many people assumed that, aside from optimizing the...

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  2. RzmmDX

    RzmmDX TechSpot Enthusiast Posts: 154   +23

    Oh hey, here I was thinking that AMD might be making some head way with the consoles.

    NOPE.
  3. Mikymjr

    Mikymjr TechSpot Enthusiast Posts: 121   +7

    Somehow seeing as to how big they like to talk about their upcoming products (but clearly are underwhelming), I saw this coming -_-'. So sad that they pump all of their money into marketing that actually back-fires in the end
  4. Vrmithrax

    Vrmithrax TechSpot Paladin Posts: 1,259   +216

    Hard to blame AMD for this... You know darn well that Microsoft did everything they could to mandate DirectX as the backbone for the XboxOne graphics - MS would be stupid not to push their own proprietary API (which coincidentally also pushes their PC interests as well). Mantle being incompatible is most likely the result of a corporate power play. How it all plays out with the PS4 remains to be seen.
  5. misor

    misor TechSpot Addict Posts: 757   +115

    ... maybe amd's announcements are more of hot air than actual substance.
    JC713 likes this.
  6. cliffordcooley

    cliffordcooley TechSpot Paladin Posts: 5,071   +1,181

    That must be why they are considered the red team! LOL
    JC713 likes this.
  7. NeurotechHD

    NeurotechHD Newcomer, in training Posts: 29   +13

    Well, kinda funny AMD didn't tell us this. How convenient.
  8. TekGun

    TekGun TechSpot Enthusiast Posts: 155   +11

    Did not tell us what? that MS would not want to use Mantle instead of DirectX, they probably thought it would be obvious.
    It's Microsoft that won't allow Mantle to be used on the xbox not AMD.
  9. dividebyzero

    dividebyzero trainee n00b Posts: 4,700   +586

    Mantle was never intended for the Xbone or PS4, so it's pretty hard to get worked up about this supposed revelation.
    Yup. DirectX is just a facet. Remember that D3D includes dependencies with DirectCompute, DirectXMath, XACT, D2D, and a raft of additional extensions
    Quite simply, MS wouldn't have AMD hardware if it was tied to AMD software.

    You might also consider that Mantle wont work with 99% of PC graphics. Intel IGP? Nvidia? AMD's own VLIW5 and VLIW4? No, No, and No. The exact reason why Mantle is a low-level API - it only deals with one particular architecture, and that won't change unless AMD change their stance on Mantle being proprietary to AMD...and if Intel and Nvidia are excluded then DirectX remains...and if DirectX remains then game devs have to include DX/OGL as well as Mantle....so a little extra work. I'm pretty sure that the devs wont be absorbing that cost- unless AMD are footing that particular bill.
    Mantle is more a marketing tool..."OMFGWTF, look how much more frames per second the R9-290X gets in BF4!". Book it.
    Not really. Sony already have two low-level API's and a wrapper. The chances that Sony would be happy to have AMD control application programming as well as hardware fit-out would be as miniscule as Microsoft relinquishing control.
    JC713 likes this.
  10. Eddo22

    Eddo22 TechSpot Enthusiast Posts: 133

  11. GhostRyder

    GhostRyder TechSpot Guru Posts: 1,834   +394

    I think a lot of people were forgetting one thing, Microsoft is really pushing Direct X 11.2 and windows 8 with 11.2. Allowing the AMD Mantle on board the Xbox ONE would have been basically allowing competition on their own console for programming. Either way, mantle is going to be cool, but its not going to be an all knowing power that's going to define the next generation. Its mostly going to be for marketing, Devs who are for AMD will of course work with it, and a way to gain a little bonus FPS.

    Microsoft allowing this would have been basically lowering the chance of developers using Direct X 11.2 and using another software which is exclusive for Windows 8 and Xbox 1 essentially pushing the point of all that off a cliff.
  12. Dukenukemx

    Dukenukemx Newcomer, in training Posts: 39   +7

    I didn't expect Sony and Microsoft to like Mantle, since it basically opens the door for developers to make better console -> PC ports. So I'm not surprised that Sony and Microsoft suddenly denounce Mantle. It's not like they have to use Mantle.

    I can see AMD making their own developers kit for both Sony and Microsoft that uses Mantle. Which is probably more of what developers want anyway, as opposed to custom DX11.x and whatever Sony has.
  13. Sniped_Ash

    Sniped_Ash Newcomer, in training Posts: 103   +29

    "AMD captivated PC gamers around the world last month with the announcement of Mantle, a brand new API designed to fully unlock the graphics potential of their Graphics Core Next (GCN) architecture."

    Captivated? Really?
     
  14. JC713

    JC713 TechSpot Evangelist Posts: 6,108   +728

    Yeah, I agree. But 11.1 and 11.2 are nothing to brag about. Mantle is nothing until we see it applied.
  15. technogiant

    technogiant TechSpot Member Posts: 30   +14

    Just think everyone is missing the point here....no matter that Xbone and PS4 at higher level support D3D and Open GL respectively....that's not the issue....at a lower level they both have code which is compatible with the GCN architecture and as they have similar hardware that code will be quite similar.

    Mantle is only for the PC but talks a similar language to both these lower level codes and can use many of the optimizations found on consoles and makes porting easier.

    In addition to Mantle talking to this lower level code it also has the ability to talk directly to the OS...be that windows, linux or SteamOS....so circumventing the need for D3D or OpenGL and the extra layers involved.

    There is NO NEED for the consoles to support Mantle it is a PC thing......Mantle has been designed to talk to the lower level language that the consoles MUST use by virtue of their hardware specifications and then translate that directly to the OS regardless of its flavor.

    So the consoles are not needed to support Mantle....they do so by default due to the nature of their hardware and low level code. The only support that is needed is that of the developers porting to Mantle on the pc.

    When the developers learn that Mantle offers an easy means of porting to the pc with optimizations already in the most part done then we will see a large up take of this.

    As this converts into better performance on AMD pc hardware then we will see a swing from Nvidia in terms of pc gamer hardware and further pressure on developers to support Mantle.

    With the consoles having about a 10 year life cycle I personally see this as a landslide which will move the profile of pc hardware ownership and developer support greatly in favor of AMD.
    GhostRyder likes this.
  16. GhostRyder

    GhostRyder TechSpot Guru Posts: 1,834   +394

    Never said they were, but remember this is something microsoft has been pushing around about the whole "Windows 8 and Xbox ONE are the only ones getting 11.2" is something they are proud of. Who knows if mantle or 11.2 will be good, only time will tell, but if Mantle lives up to whats being described, it could be very useful and a game changer. But until that time comes, its all talk.
  17. Burty117

    Burty117 TechSpot Chancellor Posts: 2,363   +260

    All I can say is, Nvidia were stupid not to put their graphics technology into a console, even if to simply stay relevant in the news, Nvidia seem to be very quiet on this front, I'm surprised they haven't come back and said anything.
  18. dividebyzero

    dividebyzero trainee n00b Posts: 4,700   +586

    Not Nvidia's call. Microsoft, Sony, and I suppose technically, Nintendo call the shots. MS and Sony obviously wanted an APU for the console to keep costs in check (lower bill of materials), and for simplification of design. Nvidia doesn't have an x86 licence and a RISC (ARM) architecture isn't developed enough to consider.
    Consoles are driven by MS and Sony, AMD merely provide the central hardware. Game coding can take advantage of similar hardware between console and PC graphics, but it will still have to develop within the existing framework. Game developers still have to code for DirectX and/or OpenGL in the games, its just that there is an option for Mantle when the console API is similar in code path and resource utilization.

    AMD would have a better (read: more widespread) uptake with game developers if Mantle code was provided to Intel and Nvidia (and PowerVR for that matter) so they could develop their own wrapper for Mantle - if the overhead penalty doesn't negate the low-level API gains, but it looks like AMD want to keep it proprietary for PR (review benchmark) purposes.
  19. What people don't get is that mantle is all along for the pcs, not for consoles which already have direct control over the metal, bur for obfuscated pcs... it will make pcs more like console which is a good think for people with GCN, I have HD7970 so I am lucky to see the performance increase and maybe in time some more hyper realism advancements. Look at the games that came out for ps3 in 2006 and then look at last of us, beyond... there is definitely some advancement in graphical departmens even in the same generation which comes from better understanding and utlizing the resources and even some new ways to do so. Mantle is goof for PCs no need for it on consoles.


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