Huawei and the Land of Magical Thinking

Jay Goldberg

Posts: 75   +1
Staff
Why it matters: Over the past week, the big news in certain circles has been the story about Huawei's new Mate 60 flagship phone and the seemingly miraculous Kirin 9000s chip that powers it. This chap has riveted everyone's attention as it seems to raise questions about the efficacy of the US government's restrictions on Huawei and China's access to advanced manufacturing processes.

At this stage, we still know very little about the chip. The Internet is filled with press stories about the chip, but they all seem to resolve to a series of benchmarks run by Chinese bloggers and a teardown from reputable firm TechInsights. They confirmed that the Kirin 9000 is produced by SMIC on what appears to be their 7nm process. And everyone's benchmarks show that the chip is competitive if not quite at the bleeding edge of performance. How was it was possible for Huawei to get around all the sanctions and does that mean they are not working?

First, we need a sanity check. We really do not know how good this chip is. Benchmarks only go so far in describing the real world performance of a phone, and it is possible that the phone does not perform quite so well under actual usage.

Editor's Note:
Guest author Jonathan Goldberg is the founder of D2D Advisory, a multi-functional consulting firm. Jonathan has developed growth strategies and alliances for companies in the mobile, networking, gaming, and software industries.

Second, prior to the crackdown Huawei's HiSilicon chip subsidiary was very good at their job, their modems and applications processors were almost the best in the industry, outperforming Qualcomm and giving Apple a run for its money. So their ability to design this chip is not the surprise, the surprise that was they were actually able to get someone to manufacture it for them.

We know that Huawei has been investing heavily in fabs in recent years. We saw signs of that in their investments in third parties, but it is also reasonable to assume they spent a lot of time and money working with SMIC engineers, efforts that would not show up publicly. Critically, we do not know what the yield of this chip is and whether it is remotely profitable for SMIC.

SMIC has been held to DUV machinery (deep ultraviolet lithography), cut off from ASML's EUV machines by US actions. Their 7nm process is probably the limit of what they can produce without access to EUV. And let's not forget that labels like "7nm" are marketing terms. In terms of actual comparisons what matters most is transistor density, and on this metric this source claims SMIC is about 10% behind what TSMC labels 7nm. There is a non-zero chance that SMIC is actually struggling to build these parts and is losing a lot of money in the process. (Again, we may never see this in their public accounts, as someone, somewhere is likely subsidizing this work.)

Also read: Nanometer Scale – The Art of Making Chips Smaller

Most people assume that SMIC is pushing the boundaries of what DUV can accomplish. Unless Huawei and SMIC have made some incredible, secret breakthrough, this means there is no future for this process. Maybe they can squeeze out a bit more density for one more round, but beyond that they would be breaking the laws of physics. So while the Kirin 9000 is a real achievement, we are highly skeptical that this really changes anything.

Huawei Mate 60 Pro smartphone teardown. Source: Bloomberg

Of course, this is a highly sensitive, intensely scrutinized area, and so we have entered the silly season of online commentary with exaggerated claims, wild extrapolations, and intense fear mongering littering Twitter. Part of the problem is that there are three large constituencies who want the Kirin 9000 to mean something more than it probably does...

First, there are the pro-China commentators. They want to show that China is resilient in the face of US "aggression", and they point heavily to the alleged 1 million Mate 60's already sold out in China. The second camp are US China watchers who want to see more sanctions against China, and so they are running around the Internet crying Wolf (or mythical reindeer lion Kirin) to force the Biden administration's hand in ratcheting up restrictions. And then there is a third camp who paint everything as a failure of the Biden administration (no names, but you know who we are talking about). Unfortunately, these three groups are very good at being vocal online even in the face of facts and common sense. There is an immense amount of noise in the channel right now.

Oddly, the most silent group are the two companies involved – Huawei and SMIC. Huawei is at the point where they feel no need to speak to the Western media, and have little reason to say anything. For their part, SMIC is desperately afraid of facing further US government restrictions and could very well end up saying nothing, ever about their role in this.

Put simply, this does not really change anything. It is unlikely that Huawei can get very far along this path. They can compete against today's phones, but soon the gap will grow to wide and they will have no way to narrow it. This means their phones will require more power than peers' to perform the same tasks, and the growing focus on AI in phones will just add to that problem.

That being said, this does show how Chinese companies will navigate the US sanctions. Pushing the boundaries, being incredibly judicious in their design trade-offs and the liberal application of duct tape to patch over problems. We could even argue that differentiation in phones has gotten so bad that many consumers may not care that much about the differences between a well-designed 7nm-based phone and a fully featured 3nm-based phone. However, in the bigger data center market these gaps will be much more important.

In short, the sanctions still seem to be working and forcing Chinese companies to make all kinds of compromises and shows the limits of what they can achieve without access to the global semis industry.

Permalink to story.

 
The China Show on youtube has covered this quite a bit. The prevailing theory is that they are stockpiled chips from before sanctions.

They have been engraved with new badging to act like it's a chip made in China, but it's just a rebadged chip from within the past 2 years that was stockpiled.

There is footage of the Chinese "Fabs" with machines that wipe existing labeling off the top of chips and then they can engrave whatever branding they want on it.
 
The stockpiling is more for components like the RAM, not so much the SOC. Given that Huawei have access to older gen SOCs, there is no need to stockpile SOCs. What Huawei was stockpiling back then were TSMC made Kirin chips, and I feel it can be easily identified by comparing the chip now and before.
While I feel the author of this article sounds upset over China's 7nm breakthrough, but the reality is that sanctions can only slow progress, but not stop progress. Not to mentioned that the sanctioned country is not some small nation. Given the resources and tenacity, it is a matter of time. Even the likes of North Korea is not deterred from their arms race even under sanctions. This is serious for the West because not it shows that not just is the sanction not effective, but it also means the likes of companies that's forced to adhere to the sanction will lose business going forward.
 
They can just steal more IP from TSMC and ASML by buying employees or sticking spies there, and the weak presidents of the big nations will come with their sanctions and keep making more useless moves.
 
What Huawei was stockpiling back then were TSMC made Kirin chips, and I feel it can be easily identified by comparing the chip now and before.

Yeah, that's what they are from what I've heard. Just Rebadged. Which is why they are hiding the real specs.

Also I don't think China will develop DUV in house any time soon, no matter how badly they want to. It is a global effort to make a DUV Fab and no country can do it alone anytime soon.
 
@Jonathan Goldberg

I am disappointed with your article. On the one hand, you said that you don't have a lot of information about Huawei's new phone. Yet on the other hand, you are just guilty of "magic thinking" by speculating wildly without any fact. If you are attacking others on speculating, should you use same standard when you post something that's not based on the fact? Basically you are guilty of the same thing what you accused others.

Why don't you wait and get the fact before posting something? Sometimes it is ok not posting something if you don't know what's going on.
 
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They can just steal more IP from TSMC and ASML by buying employees or sticking spies there, and the weak presidents of the big nations will come with their sanctions and keep making more useless moves.
This was what I was thinking while reading, could they steal/hire enough IP and people to actually becoming able to produce these 7nm chips?
We know that developing these tiny transistors is very pricey task. This is a task only a China and few other countries could develop alone. And China did not have to! They got so much experience working with western companies that they have incredible amount of help to be able to do something.
Last of all, why did SMIC not get loud about their success? A first Chinese company who achieved 7nm, is it something not to be proud about?
Will see how it unravels.
 
Why is this even an article.

zero mention about 2020 huawei phones with original Kirin 9000 chips which were 5nm and built in TSMC foundry. the fact that they still use 9000 designation number but using 7nm than 3 years ago do not indicate they are breaking the laws of physics.

pure speculation and leading the audience.
 
Surprise surprise, remove the dependency on western tech and 1.4 billion Chinese will innovate.
The west really has a misguided sense of superiority that they think they can somehow enforce. You can't stop progress and you can't pretend that China doesn't exist; it still wants to advance.
You can only stay on the bleeding edge by working together, keeping trade alive, and keep on innovating, not by cutting yourself off from partners and hurting your own profit.
 
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If tsmc was able to buid 7nm chips without EUV it means it is possible. with quad patterning at 7nm, from a productivity point of view, it took as long as single patterning with EUV. As for yields, that depends on a lot of other factors. If they need advanced chips and can't buy them, then price is not such a big issue so long as it is not a magnitude higher. The problems probably arise from here on, because using DUV will probably not produce better chips at an acceptable price for the consumers, but government/military has other criteria than price and China is big enough to afford it until they can solve the EUV problem.
 
So, essentially you (and a few here) are saying, that progress in a certain field of making chips is immediately doubtful / stolen / magical / not true....unless it was made in the US or the west.

Those backward Asians are totally incapable of creating anything technical, right??

Great thinking. Keep up the good work.
 
What if companies plan decades in advance and the saying steady progress wins the race means only that it was only a matter of time someone took shortcuts to speed up.

Of course, would huawei be able to sell as much being a rogue company without media Suport and Google?

What if these chip shrinks are actually crumbs from a bigger chop and they slowly release new iterations for better capital.

What iPhone 15? How could truly a phone be made so quick. It just the same place huawei is sourcing for their technological pie.
 
I believe it is wrong for the US and allies to restrict access to cutting edge tech to China and that that strategy will eventually backfire as it will without doubt force China to develop alternative technologies. And some of those technologies may actually prove to be better because their conception/development will require some serious out-of-the-box thinking.
 
China wants to be the World economic leader and with their determination the U.S. is afraid of them. Impose sanctions to stifle the competition is the new democratic way. China may be accused of many IP thefts but many U.S. companies went there because of cheap labor and probably did some underhanded deals to get the best deals. If there's a will, there's a way and only time will tell.
 
"Now Witness the Power of this Fully Armed and Operational Deathstar"

This is China's Deathstar moment for the West. China is finally revealing the true power of its industrial superiority. There are more Deathstar moments on the horizon. China is ramping up to flood the West with millions of inexpensive EV's.

So batten the hatches, it's going to be a rough ride.

 
I believe it is wrong for the US and allies to restrict access to cutting edge tech to China and that that strategy will eventually backfire as it will without doubt force China to develop alternative technologies. And some of those technologies may actually prove to be better because their conception/development will require some serious out-of-the-box thinking.

Very good point. I have often thought that this is what hampered Intel in developing GPUs. They probably had to do lots of out-of-the-box thinking because AMD and NVIDIA have core patents. But once they put in the effort, their product seems to be fully competitive.

The Chinese are very smart and determined people.

 
So that fantasy world picture below the title??? Where did that come from that looks amazing. Is that from a game or some AI image that Techspot created? Reason I am asking is because if its from an actual game I want to buy it.
 
Wow, what's with all the CCP shills in here just conveniently brushing under the carpet that fact that China has extensively stolen and that sanctions against them are for far more than just reducing their economic growth?
 
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