IT salaries in India and USA contrasted

I think that part of the problem is that it was "IN" to be into IT in the later part of the 90s. It was where the money was, probably because of all of that millenium bug scaremongering. And now the industry is flooded with too many people working IT jobs who aren't computer people at all.

Its going to take some time (and this economic downturn) to get rid of those people and purify the industry so that its back in the hands of the geeks again. Which is where it should rightfully be.

are the majority of the members of this site american?

So you're saying that any part of the rest of the world that are also against communism are doing so out of concern for black militancy in the US and not for their own freedom ?

So you're saying that communism is evil because of CIA activities and not of itself ? News for you, bud. The CIA didn't exist when Chinese parents were boiling their kids for food under Mao, who is a die-hard communist who admired that other communist mass murderer called Stalin who also predated the CIA.

My comment about capitalism is only a part of my answer to your assertion that the world would be a better place if the US weren't a superpower, which you've not even anecdotal evidences to back it up. Capitalism is an intergral part of our society, one which more and more of the world is adapting into their own societies whether they care for other parts of our society or not. In that respect, the US as a global superpower has been a positive one, as evident by your admission that you've no problems with capitalism itself.

As to your comment about our supposedly threatening military posture. In the book "Can Asians Think?" by Kishore Mahbubani, on page 161 is the statement by the author that "The United States is also a unique great power, probably the most benevolent great power ever seen in the history of man." Mahbubani is Singapore's ambassador to the UN.

If Saudi Arabia as a society is so good, why aren't the rest of the world emulating it ? End of discussion for this issue.

Saddam got most of his weaponry from the Soviets, as evident by the retrieval of MIGs buried in the dessert. We don't produce warplanes prefixed MIGs. The Gulf Cooporation Council created by Saudi Arabia, Oman, Qatar, Kuwait, Bahrain, and the UAE financed Saddam's 10yr war against Iran. Of course we aided Saddam for our interests. We, the US, were no more guilty or no less innocent about Saddam than his fellow Muslim "brothers". Why did we overthrow the Taliban ? Your sense of logic is nil as evident by your next paragraph. We overthrow the Taliban because they attacked us. We didn't create this war on terrorism just because we don't like their way of life. Why did we armed them to fight the Soviets ? Did it ever occur to you that may be at that time, our 2 interests were mutual ? We both don't like the Soviets, the Afghanis don't have much in terms of weapons and we do. Our relationships with Iraq and Afghanistan weren't one sided as you've so naively asserted. As for the changing of "philosophys", neither Iraq nor Afghanistan had any qualms about accepting our aids whenever it suited them, so who's being 2 faced now ?

Better check up on your sloppy history. Iraq was created by the Brits after the fall of the Ottoman Empire. The Brits screwed up and added 3 tribes/sects who hated each other into one country called Iraq. The country isn't even a century old, so what "hundreds of years" are you talking about ? Further sloppy history about not helping other countries I'm not going to comment on.

This isn't reasoned arguments but more inane hyperboles.

Roderick,

I think you missed the point and are not looking deep enough into the situation as it currently is.

Firstly, just because "... No socio/political/economic ideology is ever about equilibrium ..." doesn't mean that this is not how things should be, free from major changes. Everything moves towards equilibrium eventually. It is a natural force that cannot be avoided.

And why mention 'ideology'? I don't believe in catagorisation as that limits choices. The scenario is that we should examine and understand, then act accordingly with what we believe to be the best course of action, while continuing to monitor and act as required. Much like a servo contol system that governs the speed of a record player, and responding to any detected speed deviation, by changing the applied signal.

Agreed, and it's our responses and adaptations that I am worried about. We need to do more to protect our society, which has already started it's decline. How can we adapt to the current situation? The only way we can go is down. We have reached the summit, and its now time to come back down and join the third world.

I am not angry at India, but I am angry at capitalism. Capitalism is unfair and unsustainable. It needs some adaptations to correct it's inherent flaws.

Capitalism is at fault, but this has only become apparent as we reached the limits of what it can do. Things cannot move towards greater efficiency and productivity forever. There is a limit, and we are very close to that limit. Growth, growth, and more growth, just isn't sustainable and must stop eventually. We all know that businesses are constantly looking to increase profits, by boosting efficiency and finding better ways of doing things. A manager that simply maintains the status quo, will not improve his rewards, so once all the obvious things have been done, then they will look at the small things like eliminating 'perks' such as free coffee, etc., and reducing mileage allowance, then lowering salaries, etc. Capitalism is flawed, because it doesn't acknowledge when things are already optimised, and hence what we get is over-reaction until someone steps in to take back control. Oscillation, by any description. We need something to dampen this mechanism, so that it can reach stability (equilibrium) quicky.

This situation is not the same as was in previous historical situations. I don't believe in 'protectionism', only in managing a situation which has grave consequenses for our society if left unchecked. We cannot sustain our economy if we fail to aportion wealth fairly. If we aren't producing efficiently, or doing meaningful and useful work, then our society will collapse. You can't get something from nothing, so I can't see anyway around this problem.

Japan is highly productive and efficient, which is why it survives. It also protects it's home market from imports. Exports don't matter a jot, as that's simply swapping goods for other goods, and has no effect on Japan's home produced wealth.

Japan is so productive that it has to export goods, and in the process becomes even wealthier.

So, what will happen to our society when there are no well-paid jobs/careers left to generate wealth in our own economy, so that we can buy goods and services produced at home, and thus continue the cycle of wealth? Looks like we've already reached the end. Companies can no longer make huge profits. Inefficient operations go bust. Investments give poor returns. We work harder for lower salaries. Home ownership decreases. Many people are out of work, and the elderley don't have decent pensions on which to survive. Some wise chap pushes 'the button', and we all get nuked. The End. Sorted.

Things do look pretty bad right now, so we'll just have to see what adaptations we can come up with to turn things around. Any ideas?

I am in IT because I am a computer geek, and I am passionate about IT. I really can't imagine myself doing anything else. Sorry about the 'doom & gloom' of my post, but sometimes a little exageration is needed just to get a point across, and make people aware of the possible consequenses of simply ignoring a potentially serious problem.

Well we didnt screw it up as much as you seem to be. Look at the countries you have entered to far to liberate, look at the state of them. also are you saying that communisim is evil? how is communisim evil? the concept is good, its just people who have implimented it have been evil. Also a lot of countries are dictators or have been until the americans invade, most ofthe middle east are ruled under dictators. Our country also was ruled under a monachy which is a sort of dictatorship. Also the founding attributes of the American country were the defiition of a modern British life. You also seem to be moving away from the fundimentals of your founding laws, you are soon to be introducing laws were the actions of every person are montierd, either while sufing the net or in there own home alothough this wont be too soon it will happen to combat the war on terrorism. You also say that if the Saudi way of life was good why isnt the rest ofthe world imlimenting it, well a lot of countries do or did until you invaded them or bullied them. Many countries were also capitilsts before Americia was a proper country, u seem to think that you made it. Most types of controls, be it captilism, coomunisim, facisim or dictatorship are good ways of contol, but like most things its when its taken to the extremes it becomes unreasonable. You take capitilism to the extreme like the Russians took comunisim to its extremities. Your country's big busnisses also use countries who used to have comunsim or still have it, becasue you know it will save you money because they carnt strike for higher wages, which is one of the things your country boasts about, the average mans ability to make it to the top if he works hard enoguh what about the kid who work in sweat shops 18hours a day making nike sweat shirts, why isnt your country doing somthing about this? its becasue it doent bother you you arnt botherd what the world is like as long as it makes you money.

Saudi Arabia is a family run business, and those that live under that regime do not like it. They have no freedom and are poor (unless you are a member of the royal family), with no prospect of things improving. This is dictatorship by any description.

i know at least 4 familys who live or have relitives in saudi arabia, all but 1 of which are working class, they like the way they live, and the family who can afford to holiday in the uk say laws should be tighter, its all state of mind, we think there barbaric and they think were soft epicures. Also can things really be that bad if they are ne of the strongest 7 ecomomys in the wolrld?

Nic,

The equilibrium, or lack of it, we're talking about here are the status created by the various forms of governments and their economic policies, if any. We're free to make any changes we want, but in the end, we're usually ended up with a local version of whatever. So now we have American style capitalism compared to Japanese style or to the EU's. In any case, it's still capitalism at its fundamentals, which is profits. Caterogizations are inevitable as well as helpful. They helped us in differentiating what may/will work for us but not for you or vice versa.

This doesn't agree with your assertion that all things must come to an equilibrium. You're wanting to protect the current 1st world status of the UK at the expense of the 3rd world. Are you saying the migration to cheap labor is indicative of a decline or is the decline the result of said migration ? I suspect you believe the latter and if true, then how can it be a bad thing since you've already express a hatred for capitalism, an ideology that elevated your society to 1st world status in the 1st place ? If you now hate capitalism, then said migration and the eventual decline of the UK's 1st world status should be celebrated. Capitalism create inequalities of the monetary kind, individual to societal to national to global.

To date, capitalism has proven to be the most sustainable ideology for mankind. It has existed under the most brutal forms of oppressions imposed by other socio/politico ideologies by hiding its transactions among and by the people. The State under communism, supposedly a more egalitarian society, rewarded those who pleases it with increased wealth and privileges. Poor people under communism barters among themselves for goods and services.

The head of the US Patent Office in the 19th century once declared publicly to Congress that all things that ever needed to be invented has been invented and that Congress should dissolve the Patent Office. Capitalism by its nature will strive to profit from any avenues. By your statement you've put a limit on technology's future accomplishments. Are you seeing something we're not ? Capitalism doesn't create, it merely profits from what is created. When a society incorporate "hard" industries such as manufacturing into its economy along with "soft" ones such as agriculture, an inequality is automagically created between this society and its neighbors. This society's wealth and net worth increases exponentially as it progresses with innovations in all areas. Eventually it, in the eyes of others, became 1st world status. Creations and profits (capitalism) enjoys a symbiotic relationship in this advanced society. One will propel the other at certain times. The only way to achieve equilibrium is supposedly thru communism, and we all know what happened to that ship.

This situation isn't the same in what ways ? The product now is softwares and support. We have to create better softwares and support better than India.

That's contradictory. If Japan's exports is crap, then no matter how much protectionistic they are, their economy won't survive if no one buys their crap. Their efficiencies and the resulting productivities are the results capitalism demands. Their consumers are just like everyone else anywhere, once words got out that what they produced aren't marketable, then the prices of imports will rise. The government can impose higher tariffs until their market implodes under domestic demands for outside goods.

Japan didn't create those fine automobiles, PCs, hi-fi stereos, and assorted household appliances from nothing. It has no natural resources of iron. It has to import steel. In other words, Japan adapted to the demands of capitalism instead of trying to fight it.

i am pretty sure that is what the rest of world would do if they could. making ends meet for their family is the most important thing for most people.

if you believe it is all economically splendid in the US, then you are mistaken. there are a lot of blue collar workers who are out of jobs and unemployed who are at the poverty line. check out the unemployment statistics and various info on the state ohio. from statistics, you would think ohio was a third-world country. even highly skilled white collar professionals are out of jobs and cannot get any jobs because they are overqualified. there were crooked companies like enron and worldcom who destroyed their workers retirement investment (even $45,000 USD). more and more middle-class families are becoming poor families.

the united states is not exactly living in the lap of lavish luxury and stealing wealth from other countries for their own greed. it seems to me you are against the Bush administration (a lot of people from the US will agree with you and otherwise). remember that not all americans are complete morons who listen to anything the government says. because Bush cannot say "nuclear" correctly does not mean that other americans cannot. there are many voices in the US that are not heard by the rest of the world. do not generalize the whole by the few.

What ??? That was major screw up of the 1st order !!! That's like putting a rabid dog, a cat, and a mongoose into a cage and left the resulting mess for everyone else to clean up. Saddam Hussein exploited these ethnic and religious hatred to his and his own clan's advantage into power.

And yes, let's take a look at how many countries have we "liberated" and their status, shall we ? S Korea and Japan are regional and global economic powerhouses. Puerto Rico voted themselves to remain a US protectorate. VN is seeking diplomatic and economic relations with the US now that communism has failed and sunk. Overall, our record is really no worse off than any other colonial powers in history. Would you care to explain to us the positive and negative actions of your own East India Trading Company ?

Nowhere did I said or even implied that the US invented capitalism. Didn't I give ancient China's Silk Road as example of capitalism's history ? So what if we're taking capitalism to the extreme ? If the religious extremes of Saudi Arabia is acceptable to you, then why aren't the capitalism extreme practiced by US equally tolerated ? Tolerance for one but not the other in the interests of pop anti-American criticism is what you're doing here.

So far you've done nothing more than hyperboles and sloppy history whereas I've provided reasoned arguments with names that you can checked for yourself. There's no need for me to continue this line of "debate" until I read something more cogent from you.

Roderick,

Categorizations are only fine if they are accurate. You can't try and fit something into a category just because some things are the same, as then you have already prejudged it and forced it down that path. Remember that we humans will simply look at the categorization and assume that all the things that are bad/good for that catagory will still apply, thereby dismissing something simply because of assumptions that are inaccurate. Your quote already acknowledges this.

I don't hate capitalism, only the extent to which it is applied. There has to be a limit, and controls need to ensure that it doesn't run out of control. Capitalism rewards success, and that part is good. Also, equilibrium is not the same as equality. I don't believe in communism (equality), just managed capitalism (equilibrium). I fully support free trade, but I don't support jobs moving overseas when those jobs are directly in support of needs being fullfilled at home. By way of example, having goods manufactured overseas is fine, but having customer support services for *onshore* customers carried out *offshore* is not fine. Jobs should remain with the source that they are directly benefitting and not moved elsewhere.

Capitalism has indeed been good up to now, but we are now finding it's limits.

Once again, equilibrium is not the same as equality. Equality means that we are all equal, equilibrium means that we are managing a sustainable society, without boom and bust cycles, and where people still get rewarded for their efforts. Where do you see technology going? How can we compete with cheap labour overseas? What type of work will be left for us? We can't all be shelf-stackers, and we can't all be designers of state of the art software/electronics products. How do we generate wealth? Anyone?

We can create better software and provide better support than India, but they can do it cheaper. In fact, they can do any job cheaper, so does that mean that all of us should simply become unemployed. What can we do that they cannot? Is there enough work left for everyone?

I disagree. Japan only needs to export so that it can trade for resources that it doesn't itself have. There is no other reason why a nation cannot be self-sufficient (other than as mentioned) as in reality each nation is just a smaller scale version of a much larger trading group (the world). Do we need to trade with aliens (other planets) in order to survive?

As mentioned, Japan trades it's goods for ours. This only becomes a problem when most of the trading is in one direction. Japan has amassed it's huge wealth by doing this while other nations plummet into debt. No equilibrium here.

Wow!

This is turning into a very long thread :=).

I guess you're talking about British families working and living in Saudi Arabia, and not about the Saudi population. Foreign workers are generally isolated from the reality of life for real Saudi's that are not part of the royal family. These people are both opressed and poor.

im here once more

Helo all, had to fromat pc and encoutered some trouble, but im bak and here to plauge u all with my ignorance once more. The saudi families were actually born there believe it or not. The one midle class family i know of says life is great, the other working clas ones who my friends have visited seem to be content, and my friends said that their house was well devolped and furnished. Also i dont hate the average american, i have no problems with them, just the bush administration. I still think that Americas form of capitilism is extreme, and you dont really care about much in the rest of the world, you might say you police it but its for your own belives and gains. I think they have to have a look at how little actual care for the fellow human they embrace, like i said if you were seriouly injured the first question they ask you is do you have insurance. You might say the NHS is ruins but that was because of Thature, it will eventualy get bak to normal. The fact about just providing for the family by any means nessocary doent seem right for Americia by being the worlds only superpower you take on the role of policing the world fairly even bush says this. You dont, you seem to be like a form of cancer, eat up the wealth in one part of the world and move onto the next. You were the only guys not to vote to bring down your polution levels and you are the number one contributer to massive polution levels.

Ha... Got you... I've heard that line before... Do you watch the matrix often? (hehe )

As for the rest of what you wrote in your last argument, I'd have to say one word... NONSENSE!
Pollution...hmph...of course we do have a pollution problem, but to say we are the worst....think again buddy!

P.S. check my quote, I think it was solely written for you!

To Nic & Rodderick,

The amount of factual knowlege you posses of this subject, does not cease to inspire and amaze me.

I would have to agree with Nic and his not so bright outlook of the IT community in an American point of view. Now I'm not sure how it is for the rest of the world, but American money making institutions are dead set on pushing the IT certification onto the extremely unexperienced.

I've been in this business for quite sometime. My experience has ranged from building midrange computers for private corporations to network administrating Gateways Country stores. Now, I find myself competing with paper MCSE's and what have you, without a day of real world expirience. I'm not the least bit cold about this subject, as I know there are a lot of people out there that are putting the heart and soul into learning the subject, and well. But when a business takes a chance on a certain individual, gives him/her a good salary and a ton of resposibility, and this individual does not perform and the company ends up loosing thousands of dollars for network downtime, they begin to loose faith in the rest of the community. Thus outsourcing becomes a reality.

To Phantasm,

Your optimisim is enlightening! I myself have blind faith as well, and one day I hope to see this community founded upon geeks and enthusiasts thrive again!

consie89, is English your second language?

<just a small sample>

arnt
botherd
doent
becasue
familys
relitives
economys
democrosy

</sample>

Typos are fine, but I have a hard time taking your seriously without a good excuse for this horrible mockery of written english.

Don't worry, I understand .

However, NEVER make the mistake of underestimating the power of the PURE NEED that ordinary mortals have to:

* Press print and actually get the printout from the desired printer.

* Log on and share files over a network without any hassle.

* Surf the net.

* Get a simple web site up and running.

* Take pictures from a digital camera and transfer them to a PC.

* See that the newest version of their fav software is EVEN EASIER TO USE THAN BEFORE!

* ....need I go on?


To suggest that, all of a sudden, you are not going to get a job working with computers any more unless you up and move to India is complete bunkum and claptrap.

The whole world is SCREAMING OUT for more people who ACTUALLY KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING ON A COMPUTER!

Not these bumbling, substandard IT types who got into computers for the cash - the REAL PEOPLE, the COMPUTER GEEKS who built this cyber world and still own it.

And this is not going to change for a long, long time.

Not until we build a computer that is so easy to use its like Teletubbies for Retards.

That day will come.

And maybe even in our lifetimes.

But not now.

Not for a long, long time.

All that's moved to India is cheap, nasty call center places who are going over there and going bust anyway, according to the information I saw this morning on BBC News 24.

I think you are getting freaked out over nothing, and its time to concentrate more on learning new IT skills and in getting your next job. If there is any way I can help you in this, please let me know immediately.