Keeping an Open Mind

Dear Bill

Well, I thank you for addressing by my given name, it really proves signing off works!

Listen, I'm not saying Kim (or Kimsland) is incompetent. I'm sure he/she is and has helped many, many persons. My issue with Kimsland is his.her attitude towards the "open forum" concept and the role of the moderator. First I joked and shrugged off his/her complaints. But when he/she persists, I changed gears and became more blunt and sarcastic. I consider myself an experienced poster on forums as I bleong to many from computers to music to Obsessive-Compusive Disorder (I suffer from OCD.) This is only forum in which a moderator has complained about signing off. I found that strange and counter-intuitive. Further, there is no rule in TS forum guide that says you can't (there's also no rule that says you're supposed to.) Kimsland also argued AGAINST advice I was giving. Again, very unusual for a moderator of an open forum. Anyone can contribute whatever. Just be on topic and make some sense. Arguing someone's advice is wrong and only follow the TS Guide for Malware removal is not an "open forum" concept. That's my issue with Kimsland. He/she overstepping her authority as moderator and doesn't seem the grasp the concept of open debate.

Best,
-- Andy (I sign off to be polite)

Hi Andy,

In fairness, I believe we have to be clear about the uniqueness of malware removal; on most other malware removal forums, simply posting in the same thread might get your post deleted, or even a temporary ban.

The reason why malware removal is so different in this case is because it can potentially cause some serious damage to the user's system. I'm not sure about which instances that you are referring to, as I don't follow every single thread. In fact, I often see you posting alternative advice to the recommended one in the sticky guide, rather than directing members to completing that sticky.

In some others, I've seen you give the user a 'good to go' kind of advice once the virus scan is clean. However, it is a very much understood fact in malware removal forums, that this is not the right way to do things as viruses and spyware often tend to hide beyond a simple scan. I've personally had an experience myself where one scan showed clean, but the virus appeared a while later. Considering such circumstances, I would say your advice was wrong, which is why it needs to be pointed out.

Momok,

Thank you for addressing me by my given name. It really shows the signing off is working!

Unfortunately, you have the same attitude as Kimsland. You believe in the "by the book" approach. That attitude has a serious flaw and that is, not everything is "by the book"! I run an in-home computer servicing business and let me tell you, I don't treat every spyware call the same (and spyware removal is 80% of my business!!) It depends on how much spyware is on the system, how bad the symptoms are and what the customer needs are. My approach varies depending on the situation. It's not always the same!

One other point you made is, arguably, incorrect. Sometimes an anti-spyware utility reports that it could only remove 22 or the 24 spyware objects for a spyware program it detected. You argue that my "good to go" is incorrect as there is still infection. I say you're wrong because if 22 of the 24 spyware objects are removed, the spyware program can't run! (Not all the parts are there! It can't run!!) You also argued that one scan says it's clean "but the virus appeared a while later" Ah Momok, that means the computer got RE-INFECTED!! I've sen this a number of times. I removed the spyware but the customer continued to use the filesharing program, i.e. Limewire, and got re-infected!! You're getting too caught up in being perfect with the malware removal when in essence you don't need to be. Or, you confuse the results saying that the infection re-appeared meaning the initial removal was flawed. It wasn't, the computer simply got re-infected!

There is one situation where I do the "by the book" approach. If someone casually asks me how to prevent spyware/virus, I give them my "PC Home Services Computer Maintenance Schedule" It's 7 utilities/steps they are perform regularly to detect/remove malware. In this situation, you go by the book because I'm not the one doing the removal each time, nor is the person saying they have malware and need it removed. They are asking what they need to do to remove it regularly. THEN I give them the "by the book" approach.

Best,
-- Andy

that happens to be my first desktop computer. After the scan, I never got connected to the internet, never exposed it to any external thumbdrives etc. It did not get re-infected, but rather, the virus had other files residing in the system that the virus scanner did not pick up. There are in fact thousands of malware out there that operate in this similar manner.

If you have had plenty of experience fixing malware, you will realise what I mean. This so called 'by the book' method is used everywhere in online malware removal forums. By going against this tradition, you're not really just advocating open-forumness; you're going against the rest of the entire online malware removal community, not just techspot.

It is in fact often highly ill-advised to go with just one or two different AV and spyware scans; even if they are good like SpyBot, there will always be plenty of files that they cannot pick up. That's the limit to automated scans, which is where malware removal forums come in - to provide 'human' help. That was why HijackThis was created in the first place. (and note: even HijackThis fails at times, which is why there are other utilities like avenger, combofix etc)

PS. I addressed you by your name because I respect you wish to. But I would still suggest you simply approach Julio to change your username to your name if that's what you really want.

Once again Momok, you keep proving that you have a problem grasping the concept of "open forum" and complain that I have the problem. Its pointless trying to explain anything further as you are so deeply entrenched in your "by the book" attitude.

I started this thread for this very reason: be open minded. I then gave two personal examples, one as a tech for Dell and another as an high tech engineer with 15 years experience. I pointed out that I learned from others. You and Kimsland seem to have a problem grasping that concept.

-- Andy

Well, I simply don't see how majorgeeks.com, bleepingcomputers.com, malwareremoval.com, etc amongst many many other malware removal forums are not 'open-forums' but 'closed'.

I would like to see the pushing and shoving to cease and all this energy spent on solving problems for users with less skills and/or experience.

If one must play the King-of-the-Hill game, I suggest participation in the Internet News
Groups -- they love and invite flame wars.

PLEASE; Let's refocus our efforts to the goals of Techspot.com

If you don't like the "open forum" concept then join one of the sites you listed above.

One of the reasons I like this site and that it gets good cross section of questions and it's "open forum" so I learn from others. I'm not afraid to admit I don't know everything. It's simply because no one knows everything. That's why we need "open forums".

Best,
-- Andy

I have, I've joined them all

Actually, this is the most important statement, it is true that in 99% of cases Virus\Malware threads are pointed to the proven Viruses/Spyware/Malware Preliminary Removal Instructions (just as all other forums have their own guide)

I believe this is already the standard here (and elsewhere) it is just not forced here (whereas other forums do force this, before connecting to a real person)
The main reason here I suppose is volume of membership, although it must be close now! It's true this is usually the first link I provide (and rightly so)

At this stage it is not forced, but then again maybe it should be, as first "preliminary" step.

I would also like to state that I did go against (ie not open) to your suggestions of Spybots S&D (and everything really) whilst the member was engaged in removing Virus\Malware (WITH ME) My concern was that if the member installed Spybots S&D this would cause any further removal process (including registry editing, or startup erradication) to be hindered, with Spybots (not always) displaying that a change was automatically halted from being performed.

This is why the first step in the guide is to remove all resident protecting programs.
But then you said to install it. Going totally against the removal proceedure (of which you have confirmed that have little respect for) And highly possibly causing support to be hindered in ridding any Virus\Malware infection.

Another point about all this; just removing the infection is not completing the process, as there may still be underlying links allowing re-infesting (of which you have seen - no doubt!) Therefore part of the process is to also remove these entries. Being extremely difficult with you jumping in (with your "open mind"!) stating to a member that I was helping (and still in the middle of helping) and stating he must install Spybots S&D to fix their issue. Incredible! I advised you and the member not to do this, but then you reposted (over and over) that they must!

This is incorrect of you.

Kim, you're doing it again.

I never said to anyone they "must" do what I recommend. It's simply my recommendation!

Again, you and Momok are rigid in this belief the TS guide for malware removal is only way to go. It's obvious from the way you respond to everything I'm saying.

I'm saying, be "open minded". Anyone can post their recommendations and the originator can decide whose advice he/she wants to follow. That's it. All you and Momok keep replying with is "Andy, you're wrong!" and rant about it. That's being narrow minded and rigid in your "by the book" attitude.

-- Andy