PCB prices are up 40% in a month because of a material most people have never heard of

No, you're confused. This is a total victory: all our objectives were met.

-I think you're confused. Literally none of the war goals have yet to be achieved. Iran still has their HEU and the Regime we sought to topple is still firmly in power.

We cannot even extract an unconditional surrender.

Had the US not struck, within a year Iran would have had the capability to hit any city in Europe with nuclear-tipped ballistic missiles, and soon after that, the US as well. And you're worried about a few civilian-class speedboats pretending to be a navy?

-You said that a few speedboats were holding up the strait of Hormuz and that otherwise the US had destroyed Iran's offensive capability.

So why wasn't the US Navy able to open the strait?

Honestly, you need to step back and read what you're typing. Not once in the entire history of modern warfare has a losing party lost every single piece of equipment that can reasonably act as a weapon.

-So why wasn't the US Navy able to open the strait? If Iran can keep the strait closed and continue to bomb GCS infrastructure, then they were not completely defeated.

Once again: you're confused. Iran isn't getting a penny to "come to the table". They're not getting a penny after the deal is signed, either. IF they make further structural changes and we see they're honoring those commitments, they'll have some assets released in the future.

-Honestly, you don't know what's in the deal and really neither do I. All we have is a bunch of hearsay.

Curiously, Trump says the deal is already electronically signed but is stalling on releasing the full text of the document.

Why would he do that?
 
Iran most definitely hasn't lost its military capabilities. Iran has consistently restrained its responses to retaliation only. Trump stopped bombing 'cos he had no other sane choice. USA was totally out of patriot missiles to defend against Iran's restrained responses.

Why do you think Ukraine's Volodymyr Zelenskyy was welcomed like a hero in multiple Gulf countries soon after Trump halted his terrorising bombing campaign? Because he is able to offer an alternative to the insanely expensive patriot missiles.
 
-I think you're confused. Literally none of the war goals have yet to be achieved. Iran still has their HEU and the Regime we sought to topple is still firmly in power.
Oops! Iran's HEU is buried under millions of tons of rubble...and the terms of the deal require them to surrender it -- with US aid to retrieve it, as it's physically impossible for them to reach it themselves.

Nor was regime change the goal of the war:

"No, the United States never officially cited regime change as a stated policy goal for the war in Iran. While President Donald Trump encouraged the Iranian public to overthrow their leaders, administration officials consistently clarified that their actual military objectives were strictly operational...."


We cannot even extract an unconditional surrender.
Learn history. Fully unconditional surrenders are extraordinary rare in modern war, and have *never* happened without the victor's troops occupying all or a significant portion of the defeated nation.

You said that a few speedboats were holding up the strait of Hormuz and that otherwise the US had destroyed Iran's offensive capability.

So why wasn't the US Navy able to open the strait?
Good god, The Strait was open, with the US Navy safely escorting tankers through. Roughly half the normal trade still refused to transit it, due to the large number of mines Iran had placed in the Strait; clearing them will take time:


If Iran can keep the strait closed and continue to bomb GCS infrastructure, then they were not completely defeated.
Who told you Iran is bombing GCS infrastructure? Seriously, where do you get these absurd tales?

Why not be honest? Your hatred of Trump has blinded you to the reality here. Iran has no more nuclear program; it has no HEU to build a dozen plus nuclear warheads; it has no more ICBM or cruise missile factories.
 
Oops! Iran's HEU is buried under millions of tons of rubble...and the terms of the deal require them to surrender it -- with US aid to retrieve it, as it's physically impossible for them to reach it themselves.

Nor was regime change the goal of the war:

"No, the United States never officially cited regime change as a stated policy goal for the war in Iran. While President Donald Trump encouraged the Iranian public to overthrow their leaders, administration officials consistently clarified that their actual military objectives were strictly operational...."
- Spoken with too much confidence. If the US and Israel knew where the HEU was, they would go in and get it out themselves.

That's a major problem. We hope it's entombed but there was really nothing stopping Iran from scattering the HEU across the country, given they have underground defense complexes that would make the Swiss blush.

Anyhow, Iran still retains a substantial portion of its weapons capability 20% if you ask Trump or 70% if you ask the CIA, still has their speedboat navy, still has their HEU *somewhere*, and still has their proxies fighting a second front in Lebanon and Yemen.

Literally none of the goals of the operation have been achieved.

Learn history. Fully unconditional surrenders are extraordinary rare in modern war, and have *never* happened without the victor's troops occupying all or a significant portion of the defeated nation.

-Right, which Trump is unable or unwilling to do given it would be a deathtrap.

Good god, The Strait was open, with the US Navy safely escorting tankers through. Roughly half the normal trade still refused to transit it, due to the large number of mines Iran had placed in the Strait; clearing them will take time:


-Oh, linking congressional depositions? It's starting to all make sense. You're usually the data guy, so let's get some actual data.

If you look at actual data instead of propaganda, the picture becomes much more stark:

https://datalab.wto.org/Strait-of-Hormuz-Trade-Tracker.

Who told you Iran is bombing GCS infrastructure? Seriously, where do you get these absurd tales?

-Ohkay, it's making way more sense. Up to this point I figured we agreed on the facts but disagreed on the policy, but now I understand that this is one of those post truth discussions.

Anywhere from 30-40% of GCS oil infra has been damaged or destroyed. Some of it minor, some of it extensive. It's going to take a long time to get back to where the Persian Gulf was on February 27th.

Maybe by design, to help out American oil producers?

Unfortunately these are all older when we thought things would be wrapping up mid April. Various airports, Amazon Web Services, and other infra has taken damage since. Hard to find good articles on those however.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/h...s-as-the-u-s-and-iran-meet-for-talks-c21f7ada




Why not be honest? Your hatred of Trump has blinded you to the reality here. Iran has no more nuclear program; it has no HEU to build a dozen plus nuclear warheads; it has no more ICBM or cruise missile factories.

-I don't even dislike Trump. He's a good shake-up and a pipe cleaner for ideas everyone else would be too weak to attempt (assassinating leaders instead of fighting ground wars for example). He also hangs loose and isn't a complete ***** like most politicians.

Problem is he's a do first, sort things out later, say whatever it takes, keep everyone guessing, concept of a plan kinda guy.

He also talks out of every side of his mouth and is sensitive to his political weakness in the US given the upcoming midterms.

That might work for fast and loose real estate deals, or if you're going to take on a loser country like Venezuela, but a country that has been prepping for this it's entire existence and is already deeply distrustful of the US requires a much more nuanced approach.

I figure this whole thing falls apart in short order, but not until Iran gets a little cash infusion. Israel has already said this peace deal can go stuff it, and Iran has been consistent in including Lebanon in its demands.
 
f the US and Israel knew where the HEU was, they would go in and get it out themselves.
You *really* didn't think this one through, did you? Not even the Iranians can get to that HEU now, with a million tons of rubble atop it. Removing it is going to take a major civil engineering project and months of time -- you want "the US and Israel" to do that in the middle of a war zone?

The terms of the MoU require Iran to surrender their HEU. This will happen -- but only WITH US assistance to retrieve it.

We hope it's entombed but there was really nothing stopping Iran from scattering the HEU across the country, given they have underground defense complexes that would make the Swiss blush.
Not hardly: the US used "ripple strike" tactics with smart-fuze GBU-57s; capable of penetrating hundreds of feet of rock. The complexes themselves may still exist, but their entrances are collapsed rubble.

Anyhow, Iran still retains a substantial portion of its weapons capability...
Stop trying to deny reality. Iran has no nuclear program. Iran has no ICBM factories. Many past presidents have allowed hostile regimes to develop and deploy these weapons. Not this administration.

Iran... still has their speedboat navy...
Was this a joke? You're calling some civilian speedboats "a navy"? In that case, there's a lake near my house that has two or three navies on it -- and the men who fish from those speedboats are as well armed as those Iranian "navy vessels".
 
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/h...s-as-the-u-s-and-iran-meet-for-talks-c21f7ada


This is a great example by how easily you're gaslit by biased reporting. If you read the article carefully, you'll see that while "close to $60B of facilities" were damaged, the actual amount of damage is estimated at $34B ... with over half of that damage to Iran's facilities.

Missed that part, eh?
 
You *really* didn't think this one through, did you? Not even the Iranians can get to that HEU now, with a million tons of rubble atop it. Removing it is going to take a major civil engineering project and months of time -- you want "the US and Israel" to do that in the middle of a war zone?

The terms of the MoU require Iran to surrender their HEU. This will happen -- but only WITH US assistance to retrieve it.


Not hardly: the US used "ripple strike" tactics with smart-fuze GBU-57s; capable of penetrating hundreds of feet of rock. The complexes themselves may still exist, but their entrances are collapsed rubble.

- You misunderstand: The HEU doesn't have to live at those sites. Some of it certainly did, but much of it was transferred prior to the bunker buster strikes. Iran's HEU was dispersed across the country and it's going to be a huge pain in the *** trying to get it all.

Again, Iran has been prepping for this forever.



Additionally, I'd bet dollars to donuts that F-15 pilot retrieval mission in April was a failed attempt at exfil of HEU from Isfahan, one of the locations that some of the HEU was certainly transferred to. If I recall you mentioned yourself that the F-15 could be hit by man-portable AA if it was acting in a close air support role.

We'll learn about it in 25 years with a FOIA request.

Stop trying to deny reality. Iran has no nuclear program.
- Iran has a substantial and well developed nuclear program. The US didn't destroy it's civilian reactors (although it struck a number of them).

With a civilian program and a full fuel cycle, they will always be a stone's throw away from nuclear weapons. This is part of the reason I roll my eyes at JCPOA criticism about timelines (the deal only made it so they'd need a year).

Iran *is* a nuclear power. They simply haven't weaponized their program, but its there and it still very much exists.

What has been destroyed can be dug up and brought back online in ~ 2-5 years. Its not a permanent end to the program by any means.

Iran has no ICBM factories. Many past presidents have allowed hostile regimes to develop and deploy these weapons. Not this administration.

- Uh, yeah Iran didn't have ICBMs prior to the war. They had a space program covering for ICBM development but otherwise it was all short and medium range weapons.

Regardless, they'll be back at full speed shortly, much of their manufacturing base is subterranean and any portions that were destroyed will be rebuilt on the cheap with help from Russia and China.

Was this a joke? You're calling some civilian speedboats "a navy"?

- You called them a "Navy" given they were apparently pesky enough to avoid destruction at the hands of US forces and maintain a credible threat in the strait.

In that case, there's a lake near my house that has two or three navies on it -- and the men who fish from those speedboats are as well armed as those Iranian "navy vessels".

- Well, the guys near your house have kept the US Navy away too so if the shoe fits 🤣
 
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This is a great example by how easily you're gaslit by biased reporting. If you read the article carefully, you'll see that while "close to $60B of facilities" were damaged, the actual amount of damage is estimated at $34B ... with over half of that damage to Iran's facilities.

Missed that part, eh?

- Ok, so looks like we're going from "Iran hasn't damaged any GCS Oil Infra LOL" to "You're so gaslit Iran only destroyed ~$15 Billion minimum in GCS Oil Infra". Noted.
 
- Ok, so looks like we're going from "Iran hasn't damaged any GCS Oil Infra LOL" to "You're so gaslit Iran only destroyed ~$15 Billion minimum in GCS Oil Infra". Noted.
Eh? Youv've expressed yourself poorly. Your initial post simply said "GCS", which I took to mean Iran's threats to bomb Google's facilities. If you meant oil and gas facilities, singling out GCS is odd (and very misplaced) because GCSes are a small portion of the overall damage: most attacks were against production facilities, refineries and pipelines.

Again: most of the damage here is to Iran's oil and gas infrastructure ... not everyone else's.
 
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- You misunderstand: The HEU doesn't have to live at those sites. Some of it certainly did, but much of it was transferred prior to the bunker buster strikes.

You've failed to read your own links. Yes, Iran likely tranferred its HEU to Isfahan -- which is why the US totally demolished Isfahan with waves of bunker-buster bombs.

- Iran has a substantial and well developed nuclear program. The US didn't destroy it's [sic] civilian reactors. With a civilian program and a full fuel cycle, they will always be a stone's throw away from nuclear weapons.
Civilian reactors don't produce weapons-grade material. Why not learn the science here? Iran doesn't have breeder reactors, nor ones capable of producing P-239 that isn't heavily poisoned with P-240. That's the entire reason Iran has spent decades and tens of billions of dollars on centrifuges.
 
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Eh? Youv've expressed yourself poorly. Your initial post simply said "GCS", which I took to mean Iran's threats to bomb Google's facilities. If you meant oil and gas facilities, singling out GCS is odd (and very misplaced) because GCSes are a small portion of the overall damage: most attacks were against production facilities, refineries and pipelines.

Again: most of the damage here is to Iran's oil and gas infrastructure ... not everyone else's.

- GCS: Gulf Coast States : Iran, Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Qatar, United Arab Emirates, and Oman. In the context of the Iran war I thought it was obvious, but obviously I was wrong.

Yes, Iran's O&G infra was badly damaged in the war as well and unfortunately for the rest of us that's still O&G that won't be feeding the world's supply for a long while still.
 
Yes, Iran's O&G infra was badly damaged in the war as well and unfortunately for the rest of us that's still O&G that won't be feeding the world's supply for a long while still.
Oops! You mean the Iranian oil and gas that was sanctioned before the war, and not allowed to be sold? With the ending of the war, the US will lift those sanctions, expanding the amount of oil available on world markets.
 
You've failed to read your own links. Yes, Iran likely tranferred its HEU to Isfahan -- which is why the US totally demolished Isfahan with waves of bunker-buster bombs.

- No I read them, I just have enough of an imagination to extrapolate that Fordow and Isfahan aren't the only places Iran was keeping HEU, or that there aren't alternate methods of accessing those facilities than the main road leading into them.

Civilian reactors don't produce weapons-grade material. Why not learn the science here? Iran doesn't have breeder reactors, nor ones capable of producing P-239 that isn't heavily poisoned with P-240. That's the entire reason Iran has spent decades and tens of billions of dollars on centrifuges.

- Fair, they have the doctrine and knowledge for a nuclear weapons program, but access to their existing material is likely 2-5 years away.

Oops! You mean the Iranian oil and gas that was sanctioned before the war, and not allowed to be sold? With the ending of the war, the US will lift those sanctions, expanding the amount of oil available on world markets.

- They were selling a million barrels a day pre-war with sanctions, which is a million barrels taking pressure off the markets. If China and India don't get those million barrels, they simply have to buy the gap from elsewhere, driving up prices.
 
- No I read them, I just have enough of an imagination to extrapolate
Imagination is the right word here. The US knows where the material is, and Iran has agreed to surrender it. End of story.

Fair, they have the doctrine and knowledge for a nuclear weapons program, but access to their existing material is likely 2-5 years away.
I myself have the doctrine and knowledge to produce a nuclear weapon-- but without a multi-billion dollar centrifuge network, I won't build one in 500 years, much less 5.

They were selling a million barrels a day pre-war with sanctions
And with the lifting of sanctions, they'll now be selling 2.33 million bbls a day.

 
Imagination is the right word here. The US knows where the material is, and Iran has agreed to surrender it. End of story.

- Where are you getting that information (Iran has agreed to surrender their HEU)? Genuinely curious, the text of the MoU isn't even out there and everything I've read has Nuclear as a future discussion point once the points in the MoU have been adhered to for 60 days.

I myself have the doctrine and knowledge to produce a nuclear weapon-- but without a multi-billion dollar centrifuge network, I won't build one in 500 years, much less 5.

- That's assuming the research facilities were fully destroyed instead of simply inaccessible. Judging by the liberal usage of the word "entombed" in this discussion and what I encountered in my reading on this, it sounds like Iran should be able to recover quite a but of their investment if they can be dug out and brought back online

And with the lifting of sanctions, they'll now be selling 2.33 million bbls a day.


- So we don't have their HEU, we don't have any kind of actual agreement in place outside of an MoU, but Iran is going to start making money hand over fist selling their oil on the open market?
 
- So [we] don't have any kind of actual agreement in place outside of an MoU, but Iran is going to start making money hand over fist selling their oil on the open market?
Nothing so clearly exposes your hypocrisy here as this: literally one post earlier, you were complaining about Trump taking Iranian oil off the market and raising prices ... now you instantly pivot to attack him for allowing it on the market? You can't have it both ways: which is it?
 
Nothing so clearly exposes your hypocrisy here as this: literally one post earlier, you were complaining about Trump taking Iranian oil off the market and raising prices ... now you instantly pivot to attack him for allowing it on the market? You can't have it both ways: which is it?

- It all feeds back into the poor conduct of the war, which I have been consistent on.

One of the major complaints of the JCPOA was the return of frozen assets to Iran, which they undoubtedly used to further their nuclear ambitions and fund proxy groups in the region.

Is this not doing the same thing by other means, not to speak of rumors surrounding literal unfrozen assets and a reconstruction fund.
 
- It all feeds back into the poor conduct of the war, which I have been consistent on.
No, you don't get a pass. Do you or do you not want Iran selling oil? You've taken both sides as an excuse to criticize Trump. So answer the question.

One of the major complaints of the JCPOA was the return of frozen assets to Iran, which they undoubtedly used to further their nuclear ambitions and fund proxy groups in the region.
Because the JCPOA didn't bar either of these actions. This agreeement does.
 
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