The Nvidia RTX 4070 Ti looks set to arrive with a $799 MSRP

[Beerfloat]

I reckon the community needs more positivity. Too many people like to harp on the fly in the ointment. Nothing wrong with saving up for something you like. People who post bitter, myopic screeds about not getting their instant gratification might consider themselves blessed they don't have real problems.

 

[Joey Rakas]

Shame.

 

[GoldenGoat]

And in other news, the GPU market continues to plummet.

 

[brucek]

I reckon the community needs more positivity.

Here's a positive take, that's one of the things I love about gaming. While this hobby has always offered lots of ways to splurge and spend money, it's also pretty egalitarian in that the core enjoyment experience is available to pretty much anyone for free or nearly free, and that's only been getting more true.

1080p still looks pretty great, and the power needed to display it is now often built into mainstream processors or available in hand-me-downs and dirt cheap used systems. Lots of fantastic games from the past are available for near nothing (and are often the still the games that I choose to keep playing despite having plenty of newer gear.) Epic and others regularly give out free games. Heck even many of the games getting the most hours from players today, play great on budget systems, and if you're a smart "free-to-play" gamer who can resist digital fashion, you can play some current top hits for free. No one needs to be turned away from gaming for lack of budget.

Even going back to the luxury segment, while GPU pricing seems currently insane to me, pricing for very large, very capable TVs is getting ever more affordable, and even the consoles make them look great. You don't need a 4070ti if you don't want one.

One more positive part of all this, is it makes me believe that in the long run sanity will return to GPU pricing. It's not like food or gas where people have to keep buying no matter the price. People who don't have money to blow, won't have to, and will still be well entertained in the meantime.

 

[dhiaa]

You're right, 'decent' may be the wrong word. How about really good?
The 3090Ti was 2000 USD when it was released just 9 months ago.

Similar performance for $799? Pretty sweet!

Are you going to mention the 3090Ti was itself overpriced and saw major official price reductions?

"This overpriced GPU isn't bad because it's not as overpriced as this other overpriced GPU from the previous generation."

The 4070Ti would be ok if Nvidia wasn't also killing the budget market at the same time.

 

[moon982]

$800 for a really uninspiring mid-range graphics card. Seems like nVidia is determined to carry on with their over-pricing strategy no matter how poor the sales, and sadly it seems AMD has quietly agreed to go along with it.

That's a decent price for a card that could be close to 3090Ti performance in many areas.

LOL, it is well clearly monopoly or Moores law is almost dead and in next 3 to 6 years you not going to see even a 5% increase in power.

LOL, you are way too young to remember the 90s where every two years, even every year CPUs and GPUs where not 20% to 40% faster but like two or three times faster.

In the year 1995 if you had 1030 and in1996 had 2030 it would be way faster than the 2090.

CPUs and GPUs and things would double every two years some times in 6 to 8 months.

A $3,000 computer of 2016 to $3,000 computer of 2020 is not two or three times faster but in the 90s in one year or two years it would.

Yea going from 386 to 486 is massive increase in power or from intel pentium 2 to intel pentium 3 is massive increase, Well going from i5 5 generation to i5 10 generation is not two or three times faster.

Computers really started slowing down in year 2012.

It made more sense buying new computer every two years in the 90s and mind 2000s that not case any more.

Well hack 4090 is not two or three faster faster than the 3090 not even 70% faster with way more power all this would be very unthinkable in the 90s.

 

[passingposeidon]

"Not too surprisingly, most people believe that price is still way too high, especially when the RTX 3070 Ti arrived with a $600 MSRP."

Well, then MSRP doesn't mean much because that card was around $480 everywhere at launch. This was before the Great Graphic Gouge commenced.

I would be very interested to know what the profit margin is for these cards, and how it has changed in the last 3 years. We know there has been inflation, incorporating increased costs of raw materials, manufacturing and distribution, but I can only imagine Nvidia are making significantly larger margins on these cards than ever before.

 

[moon982]

Here's a positive take, that's one of the things I love about gaming. While this hobby has always offered lots of ways to splurge and spend money, it's also pretty egalitarian in that the core enjoyment experience is available to pretty much anyone for free or nearly free, and that's only been getting more true.

1080p still looks pretty great, and the power needed to display it is now often built into mainstream processors or available in hand-me-downs and dirt cheap used systems. Lots of fantastic games from the past are available for near nothing (and are often the still the games that I choose to keep playing despite having plenty of newer gear.) Epic and others regularly give out free games. Heck even many of the games getting the most hours from players today, play great on budget systems, and if you're a smart "free-to-play" gamer who can resist digital fashion, you can play some current top hits for free. No one needs to be turned away from gaming for lack of budget.

Even going back to the luxury segment, while GPU pricing seems currently insane to me, pricing for very large, very capable TVs is getting ever more affordable, and even the consoles make them look great. You don't need a 4070ti if you don't want one.

One more positive part of all this, is it makes me believe that in the long run sanity will return to GPU pricing. It's not like food or gas where people have to keep buying no matter the price. People who don't have money to blow, won't have to, and will still be well entertained in the meantime.

What you are describing is slow trickle down effect now. And this not just CPUs and GPUs but screen resolution and storage.

Just example MacBook Air year 2016 came with basic SSD of 128 GB now the MacBook Air come with basic 256 SSD. If you look at Dell, HP and Lenovo others around the $1,000 laptops SSD 256 GB basic.

Now windows 95 came with 50–55 MB of hard disk space requirement and windows XP 1.5 GB in in well 6 hears yes 6 years that means MacBook Air year 2016 comes with basic SSD of 128 GB now basic model would have to come with 1.5 TB SSD requirement. So basic model at least no less than 1.5 TB SSD.

Most are going for 256 SSD on basic $1,000.

So yes that is massive slow down not just in CPU, GPUs but SSD.

I got $700 desktop computer in the year 2010 that came with 1TB hard drive and there are still desktops computers for $700 coming with 1 TB hard drive. LoL.

So this not just CPUs, GPUs, SSD but hard drives too.

I read on techspot of 32 TB and 64 TB hard drives or more but these are always enterprise hard drives not for the public with out very high price as 3 TB hard drive still cost around $100 and 1 TB hard drives still costing around $70 and 4 TB hard drives still costly around $140

 

[neeyik]

I would be very interested to know what the profit margin is for these cards, and how it has changed in the last 3 years. We know there has been inflation, incorporating increased costs of raw materials, manufacturing and distribution, but I can only imagine Nvidia are making significantly larger margins on these cards than ever before.

It's worth noting that Nvidia doesn't really sell graphics cards - just GPUs. Yes, I know that they have their own models (Founder's Edition) but they're made by an external company, paid by Nvidia to do so (e.g. Palit). All chips go through a binning process after fabrication and packaging, and Nvidia will then be able to keep a specific selection for themselves, and then sell the rest.

With the latter, AIB partners essentially can choose to purchase trays containing hundreds of chips, with each tray being labeled and priced according to the results from the binning process. So for 4070 Ti models, there will be a 'base level' tray containing chips that meet the minimum specification but with fairly narrow clock windows. These will be the cheapest to purchase but are only suitable for the standard 4070 Ti SKUs. The top-end overclocked ones will require chips from more expensive trays.

Given that Nvidia will sell just the one 4070 Ti model, and the likes of Asus, Colorful, Gainward, Galax, Gigabyte, Inno3D, MSI, Palit, PNY, Zotac, etc will sell multiple versions, the majority of Nvidia's margins will come from the sale of the GPUs themselves. Jon Peddie Research reported that AIB partners experience very low margins, less than 10% these days. For example, in 2021, Asus reported revenues of $535 million for an operating income of $45 million (8.4% margin), and that's across its entire product lineup (which is enormous!).

For the same period, Nvidia reported revenues of $15868 million in its graphics division for an operating income of $8492 million (54%), with $12492 million coming from the gaming sector. So with the majority of that coming from the sales of GPUs to AIB partners, Nvidia probably has a margin of around 65% on those chips.

 

[toooooot]

Interesting that Nvidia felt compelled to throw their AIBs a bone and let them pre-scalp to absurd price levels.

Looking forward to seeing the $1K Asus versions.....gathering dust on the (virtual) shelves.

1k? You think this is charity? 1250 at the very least.

 

[mgilbert]

As long as Nvidia fanboys keep paying Nvidia's obscene prices, they have no reason to lower those prices, except for ethics, and Nvidia has none. Nvidia fanboys are as bad as Apple fanboys, so there is little hope for lower prices anytime soon.

 

[brucek]

With the latter, AIB partners essentially can choose to purchase trays containing hundreds of chips, with each tray being labeled and priced according to the results from the binning process.

How confident are you that this is the actual relationship?

I have no personal knowledge myself but I believe I've read articles here and elsewhere that imply Nvidia's control is considerably more hands-on than that description implies.

In an arm-length relationship on an open market, the purchaser of a component could then make whatever product they wanted with it and keep any profit for themselves.

As I've read the Nvidia and AIB relationship described, the AIB partner essentially needs permission from Nvidia for every important decision, including the mix of models made and the price for each. Also, that rather than being a fixed price per tier/bin of GPU, Nvidia is able to ratchet the 'price' of the GPU up along with the MSRP of the card, meaning in some ways it is more like a license agreement than an outright sale.

If all this is the case I'd argue Nvidia is a material participant in the graphics card market beyond just the GPU market.

Disclaiming again: no personal knowledge, I could be mistaken about what I read, and/or the sources I read/heard/watched could themselves be mistaken.

 

[Lounds]

Vote with your wallets people.

 

[neeyik]

How confident are you that this is the actual relationship?

I have no personal knowledge myself but I believe I've read articles here and elsewhere that imply Nvidia's control is considerably more hands-on than that description implies.

In an arm-length relationship on an open market, the purchaser of a component could then make whatever product they wanted with it and keep any profit for themselves.

As I've read the Nvidia and AIB relationship described, the AIB partner essentially needs permission from Nvidia for every important decision, including the mix of models made and the price for each. Also, that rather than being a fixed price per tier/bin of GPU, Nvidia is able to ratchet the 'price' of the GPU up along with the MSRP of the card, meaning in some ways it is more like a license agreement than an outright sale.

If all this is the case I'd argue Nvidia is a material participant in the graphics card market beyond just the GPU market.

Disclaiming again: no personal knowledge, I could be mistaken about what I read, and/or the sources I read/heard/watched could themselves be mistaken.

You're correct in that there is more to it than one simply browsing Nvidia's GPU catalog and buying a few hundred trays of GPUs. The partnership for AIB vendors does involve SKU price agreements but it's not hugely complex -- in essence, Nvidia decides on what price it wants GeForce products to sell at, as a minimum, but partners are free to charge more, if they wish. AMD does exactly the same.

Tray prices are fluid but this is true of almost any semiconductor product. In the case of GPUs, AMD and Nvidia go through multiple contractors (TSMC and Samsung for wafers; additional companies to package and test the completed chips; yet more companies to store and distribute them) so neither is ever going to offer a static price and absorb contractor price fluctuations.

 

[Loadedaxe]

I am glad I am getting old and PC gaming is not my priority any longer.
These video card prices are ridiculous, why people feel the need to give in and pay these amounts is mind boggling.

 

[R00sT3R]

Have you forgotten about inflation? This card is set to deliver 3090 level performance and at $800 instead of the $1500 MSRP of the 3090. So, similar performance and a price decrease.

Is this a serious reply or satire?

 

[passingposeidon]

It's worth noting that Nvidia doesn't really sell graphics cards - just GPUs. Yes, I know that they have their own models (Founder's Edition) but they're made by an external company, paid by Nvidia to do so (e.g. Palit). All chips go through a binning process after fabrication and packaging, and Nvidia will then be able to keep a specific selection for themselves, and then sell the rest.

With the latter, AIB partners essentially can choose to purchase trays containing hundreds of chips, with each tray being labeled and priced according to the results from the binning process. So for 4070 Ti models, there will be a 'base level' tray containing chips that meet the minimum specification but with fairly narrow clock windows. These will be the cheapest to purchase but are only suitable for the standard 4070 Ti SKUs. The top-end overclocked ones will require chips from more expensive trays.

Given that Nvidia will sell just the one 4070 Ti model, and the likes of Asus, Colorful, Gainward, Galax, Gigabyte, Inno3D, MSI, Palit, PNY, Zotac, etc will sell multiple versions, the majority of Nvidia's margins will come from the sale of the GPUs themselves. Jon Peddie Research reported that AIB partners experience very low margins, less than 10% these days. For example, in 2021, Asus reported revenues of $535 million for an operating income of $45 million (8.4% margin), and that's across its entire product lineup (which is enormous!).

For the same period, Nvidia reported revenues of $15868 million in its graphics division for an operating income of $8492 million (54%), with $12492 million coming from the gaming sector. So with the majority of that coming from the sales of GPUs to AIB partners, Nvidia probably has a margin of around 65% on those chips.

Thanks for a really informative response! 65% is incredible. Even 50%. And yet they are pushing prices up. No doubt their research suggests this is how they maximise profits but to a layman it looks to me like they are making the market smaller.

 

[HardReset]

Everyone here seems to forget that shops still have large excess inventory of RTX 3000 generation cards. And shops paid quite a lot for those. Nvidia cannot release anything to directly compete against previous generation high end cards, otherwise no-one would buy 2 year old tech for high price.

When old inventory is depleted, things will get more normal. How much remains to be seen. All in all Nvidia pricing for this card is OK.

 

[Beerfloat]

LOL, it is well clearly monopoly or Moores law is almost dead and in next 3 to 6 years you not going to see even a 5% increase in power.

LOL, you are way too young to remember the 90s where every two years, even every year CPUs and GPUs where not 20% to 40% faster but like two or three times faster.

In the year 1995 if you had 1030 and in1996 had 2030 it would be way faster than the 2090.

CPUs and GPUs and things would double every two years some times in 6 to 8 months.

A $3,000 computer of 2016 to $3,000 computer of 2020 is not two or three times faster but in the 90s in one year or two years it would.

Yea going from 386 to 486 is massive increase in power or from intel pentium 2 to intel pentium 3 is massive increase, Well going from i5 5 generation to i5 10 generation is not two or three times faster.

Computers really started slowing down in year 2012.

It made more sense buying new computer every two years in the 90s and mind 2000s that not case any more.

Well hack 4090 is not two or three faster faster than the 3090 not even 70% faster with way more power all this would be very unthinkable in the 90s.

Come again?

 

[wiyosaya]

I want some of what nVidia is smoking.

 

[waclark]

Is this a serious reply or satire?

Why would you think this is satire? Early benchmarks show 3090 levels of performance. You are the one who said 70 series cards deliver 90 series performance for not much of a price increase. This card seems to be falling right on top of 90 level performance and is cheaper, by a lot.

 

[mcnabney]

Everyone here seems to forget that shops still have large excess inventory of RTX 3000 generation cards. And shops paid quite a lot for those. Nvidia cannot release anything to directly compete against previous generation high end cards, otherwise no-one would buy 2 year old tech for high price.

When old inventory is depleted, things will get more normal. How much remains to be seen. All in all Nvidia pricing for this card is OK.

Here's the problem though.

Sellers and manufacturers think that the two year old 3000 series GPUs should still be sold for their original MSRP (or even higher). This is abnormal for tech. Two year old technology has always been heavily discounted. Outside of weird RAM fluctuations or natural disasters in production areas (remember when most of the world's hard drive plants were flooded?) old tech loses value fast.

Six years ago I bought (and am still using) a 1080 gpu for $500. It was a big purchase for me because I normally don't buy the top tier (ignoring Titan and other workstation products). That GPU is still worth almost $200. That is unheard of with PCs. Six year old gear is typically junk by then. Because the old stuff is still so valuable everything after it is going to be incrementally more expensive.

 

[HardReset]

Here's the problem though.

Sellers and manufacturers think that the two year old 3000 series GPUs should still be sold for their original MSRP (or even higher). This is abnormal for tech. Two year old technology has always been heavily discounted. Outside of weird RAM fluctuations or natural disasters in production areas (remember when most of the world's hard drive plants were flooded?) old tech loses value fast.

Six years ago I bought (and am still using) a 1080 gpu for $500. It was a big purchase for me because I normally don't buy the top tier (ignoring Titan and other workstation products). That GPU is still worth almost $200. That is unheard of with PCs. Six year old gear is typically junk by then. Because the old stuff is still so valuable everything after it is going to be incrementally more expensive.

That is problem because crypto and covid. However there is not much to blame about either Nvidia or shops. About only way Nvidia can guarantee at least some supply outside miners and/or scalpers is to offer enough cards to shops. And because there is huge demand, prices naturally go higher. And because shops bought at high price, they cannot sell much lower price.

We can well count covid+crypto to be same category as hard drive factory flood.

 

[toooooot]

Everyone here seems to forget that shops still have large excess inventory of RTX 3000 generation cards. And shops paid quite a lot for those. Nvidia cannot release anything to directly compete against previous generation high end cards, otherwise no-one would buy 2 year old tech for high price.

When old inventory is depleted, things will get more normal. How much remains to be seen. All in all Nvidia pricing for this card is OK.

There a A LOT of cards on newegg. If you pick something like 3080, there are most of the models ever released available.
Hopefully, they lose hope trying to sell them at msrp and prices become low enough for most people to be able to afford an upgrade.

 

[HardReset]

There a A LOT of cards on newegg. If you pick something like 3080, there are most of the models ever released available.
Hopefully, they lose hope trying to sell them at msrp and prices become low enough for most people to be able to afford an upgrade.

Why would they? They paid a lot and those cards will sell eventually. They just won't buy new cards from Nvidia and that solves problem. Sadly for consumers, Nvidia made too much 3000 series that means 4000 series will have very slow rampup...