Weekend Open Forum: Traitor, criminal, whistleblower, or hero - Classified leaks and their leakers

By on August 2, 2013, 6:15 PM
wof, weekend open forum, bradley manning, classified documents, whistleblower, edward snowden, treason, traitor, classified

Bradley Manning and Edward Snowden are infamous in some circles, famous in others. These two men put much more than their reputations on the line to disclose classified documents to the world, they knowingly imperiled their freedom and their lives.

There is an undefined balance to be struck between transparency versus surveillance and privacy versus security that the United States and the international community are being forced to examine.

We've listened to the conversations cropping up all around us, and particularly here in the related articles' comments; some say these men are guilty of treason, others hail them as heroes.

What say you, readers? Are they traitors, criminals, whistleblowers, or heroes?




User Comments: 53

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cliffordcooley cliffordcooley, TechSpot Paladin, said:

They are natural journalist (not some fake journalist, only telling the story as it is allowed), willing to spread the truth about the world. I feel sorry for everyone that see these two men as traitors. I feel sorry for everyone that does not care to know the truth. I feel sorry for these people because they are choosing to live in a world of oppression, instead of fighting for their rights the way our forefathers did.

Personal freedoms are not given freely, they are taken by those who are fortunate to stand above everyone else. Either fight for your personal freedoms, or don't ***** because you live in a world of oppression. These two men were fighting for our rights to personal freedom, and we fail them by threatening life in prison.

Lurker101 said:

Considering they sacrifice quite literally everything to reveal the crimes of their own governments, for the betterment of everybody else and there still hasn't been a single shred of evidence that what they've revealed has gotten anybody killed, I'd have to say they're either heroes or ******. Possibly both.

EDIT: Of all the words to be censored on here, why is ***** one of them?

Guest said:

Governments don't commit crimes - they write the laws and then have the flexibility to abide by them or not themselves. This is a necessary hypocrisy. They will do whatever they see fit to preserve rule and peace. Sometimes, hippies will not understand how complex or grey it can become to fight the lawbreakers and evildoers on their own terms. If you are a hippy then I cannot convince you otherwise, and you may be determined to undermined your government's ability to protect you and your country, or maybe you are just an anarchist like the modern 'anonymous' clowns.

As for Snowden and Manning, they are better off dead as sneaky little traitors don't have the respect of anyone (whose opinion matters). You can see the conceited smirk on little Manning's face anyway - he delights in the trouble he has caused as that is all he is - a troublemaker (perhaps check out his school reports etc).

I'm sorry, but if you disagree then your opinion doesn't really matter to me anyway as you are off-base and thinking outside of universal truth.

One thing I DO blame the government for - not vetting these treacherous pr1cks out in the first place - they never should have had the opportunity to do the damage that they did.

Pity their parents for having to defend their treacherous little boys.

cliffordcooley cliffordcooley, TechSpot Paladin, said:

You can see the conceited smirk on little Manning's face anyway - he delights in the trouble he has caused as that is all he is - a troublemaker (perhaps check out his school reports etc).
It is a still-shot that may not even be related to the topic. And you might as well be condemning everyone for having emotional facial responses. People can be made to laugh during the most disastrous events. Thank you for showing how belittling you can be. I hope you don't treat your own family and friends this way. This one statement invalidates your whole comment, because now I see you charging everyone for treason when they have a smirk on their face.

Fbarnett Fbarnett said:

Traitors they take the job and are suppose to keep a secret. no matter who they tell or why the do not keep their word

1 person liked this | hahahanoobs hahahanoobs said:

When whistleblowers get caught, the people responding are so vague on why it's a bad idea. So until they open up, these guys are HEROES!

Ranger1st Ranger1st said:

No job takes precedence over your social contract to society. Those that think otherwise deserve to be led by the nose for the life and not be permitted into a free society. Morality and Ethics are the backbone of what makes a good and decent human being.. You can be a solider at the tip of the spear or a home maker with 2 kids in the burbs and have both.. The US government has started down a slippery path, under the guise of security, they have implemented a total and overriding intrusion into everyone's lives. At some point you see that the Islamic Spring movement has very similar pathways to what the US government is now doing to it's citizens. The fall of the 'new' Rome is near.. what ship do you plan to be on when it does.

misor misor said:

A government of the people, by the people, and for the people....

snowden is a traitor, committing treason against himself...or did he participate in committing illegal surveillance against himself before his "leaks"?

seriously, he should have used the available 'checks and balances' present in a functional democracy:

an erring executive branch (presidency) will be 'audited' by the legislative branch of the government (congress), and if that 'checks and balances' fail, the judiciary will interpret the law. he should have gone to the u.s. senate presiding officer or the leader of the house of representatives or the justices of the supreme court.

in the u.s. tv series '24', we are witnesses in how jack bauer circumvents the law in order to protect the American public. he likewise values the well-being of American servicemen and women who will brunt the consequences when security matters are leaked to the public or to the enemy. I'm not saying that the fictional jack bauer is totally right or that the real-life snowden is totally wrong. nevertheless, it's easy to side with jack because '24' is just a show but when snowden 'coughs' or 'leaks', real American lives and its allies are in jeopardy.

anyone for the prosecution of snowden for releasing classified documents detrimental to American interests?

anyone for the prosecution of Obama for blatant disregard of the laws on privacy and against illegal search (and seizure) without court order?

I'm not American, I'm a Filipino but anything that the big brother u.s.a. does affect my country as the Philippines is an American ally against terrorism and there are at least 2 million Filipinos living in the u.s.a..

cliffordcooley cliffordcooley, TechSpot Paladin, said:

anyone for the prosecution of snowden for releasing classified documents detrimental to American interests?
It is political interest that is labeling them as traitors, not American interest. If you factor in American interest, the Traitor charge becomes reasonable doubt.

1 person liked this | TomSEA TomSEA, TechSpot Chancellor, said:

It's a tough call. I'm a 20-year American military vet with 6 combat zones under my belt.

There is simply some intelligence that you can't leak out. What would have happened if the Germans knew about the Allied D-Day invasion during WWII? Or the Russians about the German invasion during WWII? How about giving Saddam Hussein or Osama bin Laden all of our military intelligence info? Think they might have had some fun with that?

On one hand, I think any government should be more transparent in their intelligence activities than they are now - it can serve as a deterrent if handled properly. On the other hand, I know first hand that letting your enemy know what you have and what you're thinking will cause the death of who knows how many soldiers, civilians and other intelligence gatherers.

There's a wrong way and a right way to voice your displeasure over intelligence gathering. What Snowden and Manning did was the wrong way. "Let's just dump a bunch of intelligence data on the internet and see what happens." This wasn't about them doing the "right" thing - this was about them getting attention that they apparently craved. Having been in the working mechanics of the military, there are things you can do to bring up concerns without compromising huge intelligence gathering functions and information.

Use a little common sense instead of trying to get your name in the headlines and the world will be a lot safer place.

Just my 2 bits...

Guest said:

It is a form of self-immolation...

Guest said:

Governments are for the people, not to oppress the people. How can you enforce law by breaking it? No government should do such kind of actions without passing through the legal process in the middle, people rights are above. Beware governments can easily become a tyranny.

Preventive actions done out of the legal frame is like Bush's preventive wars. Manipulating people through fear. Still US is paying the consequences of going such wars, money of the people wasted to benefit a few rich ones. This has nothing to do with security it has to do with power, keeping the control of the society and established social structures to not alter status quo.

Acespaces Acespaces said:

Unsung heroes, and at that note I'll clap against my keyboard for them

ujyyjnhyjgyhgyjb

captaincranky captaincranky, TechSpot Addict, said:

Traitors, plain and simple.

Before, terrorists could only guess at the fact the were being spied on, and one could suppose, became a bit complacent about it.

With everything out in the open, it would be very easy to say, "we're going to blow up the Empire State Building next Tuesday", then go blow up the Eiffel Tower instead.

Misdirection is too easy to apply when you know you're being overheard.

And Julian Assange you ask? I think he just started Wikileaks to try and get laid. Trouble, that didn't work out so well, and now there's a warrant out for his arrest.

As for the rest of this discussion, the idealist at this site are just way too naive and tedious for their own good.

It all comes down to this, "why should the US be forced to wage war on a higher standard than the rest of the human dreck on this planet? (*) Look up Kymer Rouge, Pol Pot, The Bataan Death March, and before I forget, "The Final Solution", and "The Holocaust", I'm pretty sure those weren't the US's doing, and I'm damned sure they were civil rights violations.

I'm also absolutely positive, that none of you doing all this whining have ever been subjected to "oppression by the totalitarian US government". Because if you were, you wouldn't be on the internet running your paranoid, self serving yaps so incessantly.

Josef Stalin killed millions of his own people, and all you have to cry so loudly about is somebody may be listening to your phone calls.

(*) Not to mention the fact that all of you "experts" at how war should be waged, have probably never served, or ever had any intention of doing so.

Guest said:

Bradley Manning ALWAYS has a smirk on his face like he is in fact a bit mental.

He should have been WORMED out during the recruitment process.

Zoltan Head said:

It is political interest that is labeling them as traitors, not American interest. If you factor in American interest, the Traitor charge becomes reasonable doubt.

I can't see how breaching National Security is in American interest?

1 person liked this | Guest said:

Heros of course.

One of these men has leaked info pertaining to the near unrestricted expansion of surveillance powers. As proven by this leak, no government system or its employees can ever be entirely trusted with power of this magnitude. The other one revealed acts of military misconduct and of questionable diplomatic practices. It is in the US public interest to know the truth about these events and projects so that they can be kept it check and/or prevented.

The government should not be allowed to operate in secrecy while steadily eroding personal freedom and privacy. The foolish justify this by citing security benefits without realizing they're supporting the development and entrenchment of a powerful system of control and manipulation within government that can at any point be turned into a highly exploitative tool for advancing the interests of the unscrupulous.

National security should be dealt with at the root of the problem. Not by hunting for and placing patchwork on a leaky ship. But by tackling grievances in countries from where terrorism might originate. The Israel-Palestine conflict is one of the historical lynchpins that continues to prop up support for radicals. There needs to be a permanent and equal partitioning of that land and its resources so both states can prosper and coexist peacefully. Secondly there must be a transformation to a secular culture in the region where reason, freedom and equal opportunity is valued above all else. Iraq and Afghanistan was a missed opportunity in which the US should have governed by those standards until subsequent generations of youth are incapable of living without the results of those ideals. That is the solution. Winning hearts and minds. Not the erosion of our own ideals in the name security, and certainly not the foolish patriotic-imperialism that involves bombs, bullets and propping up client states.

The foolish among us here will of course call these men traitors. Pulling out all their misdirections and straw-men in an attempt to discredit them. They are patriotic more so than you ever will be as far as I'm concerned.

cliffordcooley cliffordcooley, TechSpot Paladin, said:

I can't see how breaching National Security is in American interest?

If national security was actually breached, yes. I don't see where anyones security was breached.

What I do see is way too much political BS, protecting government officials who are free to violate anyones right to privacy. And when a crime does actually threaten the civilian population, I see way to much BS hand slapping (which may not even take place for a decade). If they would make an example of those who are guilty, there would be less need for cryptic tactics. I'm not appalled at the fact they utilizing such measures. I'm appalled because they have been cryptic, to keep from creating privacy guidelines for those who are innocent.

To be honest, I wouldn't care if they blocked all encrypted communications from crossing national borders without prior approval.

Railman said:

Traitors, plain and simple.

Before, terrorists could only guess at the fact the were being spied on, and one could suppose, became a bit complacent about it.

With everything out in the open, it would be very easy to say, "we're going to blow up the Empire State Building next Tuesday", then go blow up the Eiffel Tower instead.

Misdirection is too easy to apply when you know you're being overheard.

And Julian Assange you ask? I think he just started Wikileaks to try and get laid. Trouble, that didn't work out so well, and now there's a warrant out for his arrest.

As for the rest of this discussion, the idealist at this site are just way too naive and tedious for their own good.

It all comes down to this, "why should the US be forced to wage war on a higher standard than the rest of the human dreck on this planet? (*) Look up Kymer Rouge, Pol Pot, The Bataan Death March, and before I forget, "The Final Solution", and "The Holocaust", I'm pretty sure those weren't the US's doing, and I'm damned sure they were civil rights violations.

I'm also absolutely positive, that none of you doing all this whining have ever been subjected to "oppression by the totalitarian US government". Because if you were, you wouldn't be on the internet running your paranoid, self serving yaps so incessantly.

Josef Stalin killed millions of his own people, and all you have to cry so loudly about is somebody may be listening to your phone calls.

(*) Not to mention the fact that all of you "experts" at how war should be waged, have probably never served, or ever had any intention of doing so.

I will grant you there are worse countries than the USA but you are missing an important issue regarding the intrusive nature of the surveillance undertaken by the NSA. All the time there is a benign government you have nothing to worry about. The problem comes when the government becomes less accountable. The USA has had periods when it has treated it's citizens very badly. McCarthy held a series of trials which were show trials. Germany was a democratic country which voted in the number one despot in modern history. Need I go on?

If you consider me a wet liberal I really could not care less as you do have the freedom to do so. Enjoy your free speech whilst it lasts.

1 person liked this | TheBigFatClown said:

Governments don't commit crimes - they write the laws and then have the flexibility to abide by them or not themselves. This is a necessary hypocrisy. They will do whatever they see fit to preserve rule and peace. Sometimes, hippies will not understand how complex or grey it can become to fight the lawbreakers and evildoers on their own terms. If you are a hippy then I cannot convince you otherwise, and you may be determined to undermined your government's ability to protect you and your country, or maybe you are just an anarchist like the modern 'anonymous' clowns.

As for Snowden and Manning, they are better off dead as sneaky little traitors don't have the respect of anyone (whose opinion matters). You can see the conceited smirk on little Manning's face anyway - he delights in the trouble he has caused as that is all he is - a troublemaker (perhaps check out his school reports etc).

I'm sorry, but if you disagree then your opinion doesn't really matter to me anyway as you are off-base and thinking outside of universal truth.

One thing I DO blame the government for - not vetting these treacherous pr1cks out in the first place - they never should have had the opportunity to do the damage that they did.

Pity their parents for having to defend their treacherous little boys.

Has anybody here taken this post as being anything other than an attempt to get attention? The content is so over the top I can't even begin to take it seriously. If it was meant to be taken seriously please explain what you mean when you say "Governments don't commit crimes."

If nobody's opinions matter to you why are you here on this website reading them. I have a question for you. Do YOU even believe the things you are saying?

Ranger12 Ranger12 said:

Snowden had some good info but went about it all wrong. They're both traitors. One individual cant just go posting classified information all over the Internet. How is one guy going to foresee the damage that information may cause. They can't. You can't just say, "we'll snowden's information didn't hurt anyone", because we don't know and if it didn't hurt anyone what will happen next time someone takes a pledge to protect information then violates that pledge? Maybe people will die, maybe they won't, guess we'll just have to trust whatever self-righteous individual decides he is right despite the law of the land.

If the majority of people really think Snowden and Manning are right then we should be discussing the laws regarding classified information before other wannabes going leaking information that does real damage.

TheBigFatClown said:

Snowden had some good info but went about it all wrong. They're both traitors. One individual cant just go posting classified information all over the Internet. How is one guy going to foresee the damage that information may cause. They can't. You can't just say, "we'll snowden's information didn't hurt anyone", because we don't know and if it didn't hurt anyone what will happen next time someone takes a pledge to protect information then violates that pledge? Maybe people will die, maybe they won't, guess we'll just have to trust whatever self-righteous individual decides he is right despite the law of the land.

If the majority of people really think Snowden and Manning are right then we should be discussing the laws regarding classified information before other wannabes going leaking information that does real damage.

I am so glad you mentioned the 'law of the land' in your post. How much do you value your "constitutional" rights as an American citizen, specifically, the 4th right of the United States Constitution? I am guessing also that you would have all illegal aliens in the United States deported immediately(if you were President) since, right now, according to current laws, they are here "illegally". Yes?

You want Edward Snowden prosecuted for breaking the law. I am guessing you want the same thing for "other" people who break the law. So yes, the damage caused by what a criminal does needs to be assessed as accurately as possible to determine proper punishments. We can't punish Edward Snowden for his actions without establishing a direct link between his actions and the damages caused. Your statement that 'we don't know if it hurt anyone' is a little hard to swallow. If damages can't be established within a 'reasonable' timeframe then it's probably safe to say there arent any. If someone has verifiable proof of damages let them come forward and make the case.

The punishments are different from certain crimes according to the damages caused by the crimes also. Attempted murder has a different punishment from actual murder unless I am mistaken, although probably not by much.

I don't claim to have any perfect answers myself. Just looking for consistency in the arguments that people are putting forward. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

I am all for following the laws of the land. It's just a damn shame that our government is picking and choosing the ones they want to follow outside the normal congressional procedures.

"guess we'll just have to trust whatever self-righteous individual decides he is right despite the law of the land." Kind of like Obama is doing right now in spite of the fact that 11 million "illegal" immigrants are living in America right now. It's a law, it's a fact. They are not "undocumented workers", they are "illegal aliens". It's the law. If you don't like the laws do something to change them. I think we got a few 'self-righteous individuals in the white house.

I am not saying what should be a law or what shouldn't. I am simply saying that we if we are going to be a nation of laws that they should be enforced and not 'selectively' enforced. But when you got 11 million people all breaking the law at the same time it does become a much harder law to enforce. *sigh* Where was I going with this? Especially when you already know they are all gonna vote for Democrats.

2 people like this | Guest said:

Manning brought many hours of pleasure and laughter to millions, especially in the sixties and seventies. Although he fell out of favor in the eighties, in part due to the often racial/racist content of his material, he was an entertainer, and as such should not be vilified, and certainly not labelled a traitor.

Guest said:

Oh look, Ichu12 didn't understand the previous post!! :D

TheBigFatClown said:

Oh look, Ichu12 didn't understand the previous post!!

He's just looking for some love. *TheBigFatClown gives Ichu12 a big fat greasy sloppy bear hug*

Ranger12 Ranger12 said:

I am so glad you mentioned the 'law of the land' in your post. How much do you value your "constitutional" rights as an American citizen, specifically, the 4th right of the United States Constitution? I am guessing also that you would have all illegal aliens in the United States deported immediately(if you were President) since, right now, according to current laws, they are here "illegally". Yes?

You want Edward Snowden prosecuted for breaking the law. I am guessing you want the same thing for "other" people who break the law. So yes, the damage caused by what a criminal does needs to be assessed as accurately as possible to determine proper punishments. We can't punish Edward Snowden for his actions without establishing a direct link between his actions and the damages caused. Your statement that 'we don't know if it hurt anyone' is a little hard to swallow. If damages can't be established within a 'reasonable' timeframe then it's probably safe to say there arent any. If someone has verifiable proof of damages let them come forward and make the case.

There are plenty of crimes that don't require any damage to be done in order for prosecution so I do not believe a measurement of damage should be a deciding factor as to whether or not he held liable for breaking the law.

As far as illegal immigration goes...what a mess.

Pan Wah said:

Manning brought many hours of pleasure and laughter to millions, especially in the sixties and seventies. Although he fell out of favor in the eighties, in part due to the often racial/racist content of his material, he was an entertainer, and as such should not be vilified, and certainly not labelled a traitor.

LMFAO! To clarify for younger & non-British readers, I think Guest refers to Bernard Manning, and is being a very naughty poster....

Guest said:

Who the hell are you talking about certainly not the same young manning that leaked info to WikiLeaks in 2010. Not sure if he was even alive in the sixties

Pan Wah said:

Who the hell are you talking about certainly not the same young manning that leaked info to WikiLeaks in 2010. Not sure if he was even alive in the sixties

It says who in the previous message, try reading it.

miguel11 said:

HEROES!!! The crooks, lairs and criminals are in the US Government.

2 people like this | Darth Shiv Darth Shiv said:

Some parts of the govt think they have a blank cheque to do whatever they want with our freedom and rights. That's why we *need* whistleblowers. The normal channels don't work here. There is a wall of bs policy that lets them legally do unethical things.

Guest said:

Some parts of the govt think they have a blank cheque to do whatever they want with our freedom and rights. That's why we *need* whistleblowers. The normal channels don't work here. There is a wall of bs policy that lets them legally do unethical things.

Which parts of which government think that? I think you may have made that up....

fimbles fimbles said:

I reserve my judgement, As I doubt any of the facts printed in the press are actually facts.

miguel11 said:

Some people here, US Government apologist, are claiming that these heroes are traitors because they broke the law. The question they should be asking is, who made those laws and who benefit from those laws? Martin Luther King Jr once said that when you have found a law that is unfair and unjust you have the moral obligation to to brake it. The US Government in general (executive, legislative, and judicial) have become detached from the needs of the common citizen and is under the control of private corporation through their lobbyist and their political campaign contributions (legalized bribes). The political system in the US and around the world, the so called "DEMOCRACIES", is broken. Many of the laws passed in the US congress like the Patriot Act, National Defense Authorization Act, SOPA, are unconstitutional and let the government do whatever they like with our freedoms and individual liberties. Benjamin Franklin once said,

"Who ever exchange security for liberty deserve neither."

In case you haven't noticed, the US government, is torturing and kidnapping people (extraordinary renditions), are killing American citizen overseas without due process of the law with drones (Anwar al-Awlaki, 16 years old), is retaining prisoners of war (by international law) in pseudo penal colonies overseas without due process of the law many who have been prove innocent, etc, etc, etc...

WHO THE HELL IS DOING THE ILLEGAL STUFF. So because the US Government says a person is evil we have to believe them? Who benefit of all these was on drugs and terrorism?

Follow the money all the way to Washington DC.

Guest said:

Nice incoherent rant, Miguel :(

1 person liked this | miguel11 said:

Oho, by the way, 70% of all the intelligence budget goes to private corporations like Booz Allen Hamilton (where Snowden worked) which is owned by the Carlyle Group, an investment bank in which the BUSH family has shares and is part of the board of executives.

The Military Industrial/Security Complex annual budget is of around 1.3 Trillions.

FOLLOW THE MONEY.

TheBigFatClown said:

Nice incoherent rant, Miguel

That's the best you got? A 4 word response to multiple valid points in which you yourself offered no counterpoints? Oh, I get it, you aren't actually expecting anyone to take you seriously.

1 person liked this | miguel11 said:

Nice incoherent rant, Miguel

Well then, explain yourself you "GENIUS".

Oho, and in case you haven't notice, the US economy is BANKRUPT (17 trillion US Government Deficit usdebtclock.org), brough to you by the unnecessary WARS OF AGGRESSION and BAILOUTS for the banks. Check out Dmitry Orlov online video (FORA.tv) Social Collapse Best Practices if you want to protect yourself from the coming chaos, or better yet, move to another country.

Ask yourself why HOMELAND Security (homeland sounds Nazi) bought 1.6 Billion Rounds Of Ammo, not practice but hollow point (to kill), and purchase 3,000 MRAP armor trucks. TO CUT FLOWERS IN YOUR GARDEN?

Do you think the information collected by NSA is not going to be used against you?

THINK AGAIN...

1 person liked this | spencer spencer said:

DO WE ALL WISH TO BE SLAVES? SNOWDEN is a HERO; This is a police state 1984; DHS buying millions of targets of kids and civilians for "target practice"and urban operations (arresting truthspeakers and whilstleblowers like snowden as well as confiscating guns planning for civil war?????).Meanwhile buying MILLIONS of bullets to kill us all;sounds crazy? look it up. Also you all are commiting a federal crime every time you go to sleep"unless your pineal gland is calicified".Dee to the fact DMT is a schedule 1 drug while being produced by your body every single night to produce dreams. And we all are holding. Couldn't resist the urge to rant...

cliffordcooley cliffordcooley, TechSpot Paladin, said:

FOLLOW THE MONEY.
More like, "Follow your tax money!". Ohh, thats right it is considered classified to.

miguel11 said:

FOLLOW THE MONEY.
More like, "Follow your tax money!". Ohh, that's right it is considered classified to.

You are not far from the truth. The Pentagon has a Black Budget which information is classified even for the corporates prostitutes in the US Congress.

ShadowLeaper said:

I am a U.S. citizen.

I believe that they are both traitors for releasing classified information that compromises our country's intelligence-gathering operations. These operations directly affect the safety and security of our citizens -- we are all less safe now that those programs have been brought into the light.

And yes, illegal aliens do need to be deported. If I was in charge, that would be the first thing on my agenda.

1 person liked this | cliffordcooley cliffordcooley, TechSpot Paladin, said:

These operations directly affect the safety and security of our citizens
For the life of me; I can't understand how you don't see all government as a threat, and blindly stand behind them under a false illusion of security. Governments are controlled by people, people who don't care about those under them. You have got to be blind, if you can't see this within your own life.

Have you ever heard the term power corrupts. Well thats probably one of the reasons we choose to vote on Presidency every 4 years. The thing is our country in not run by those who are in office. They are controlled by outside sources that never loose control, which keep our government corrupted. If you want to get right down to it, our government is just as afraid of these corrupted powers as its citizens. The problem is no one wants to fight the government, but yet to fight these corrupted powers, we would have to first take out the government.

And yes, illegal aliens do need to be deported. If I was in charge, that would be the first thing on my agenda.
Creating borders and restricting immigration was the first sign of freedom loss in this country. Requiring citizenship is the first step in organized oppression. Borders should not be closed to anyone unless oppression is what you really want.

jackal2687 said:

Governments don't commit crimes - they write the laws and then have the flexibility to abide by them or not themselves. This is a necessary hypocrisy. They will do whatever they see fit to preserve rule and peace. Sometimes, hippies will not understand how complex or grey it can become to fight the lawbreakers and evildoers on their own terms. If you are a hippy then I cannot convince you otherwise, and you may be determined to undermined your government's ability to protect you and your country, or maybe you are just an anarchist like the modern 'anonymous' clowns.

As for Snowden and Manning, they are better off dead as sneaky little traitors don't have the respect of anyone (whose opinion matters). You can see the conceited smirk on little Manning's face anyway - he delights in the trouble he has caused as that is all he is - a troublemaker (perhaps check out his school reports etc).

I'm sorry, but if you disagree then your opinion doesn't really matter to me anyway as you are off-base and thinking outside of universal truth.

One thing I DO blame the government for - not vetting these treacherous pr1cks out in the first place - they never should have had the opportunity to do the damage that they did.

Pity their parents for having to defend their treacherous little boys.

"Everything Hitler did in Germany was legal" -Martin Luther King Jr.

ShadowLeaper said:

For the life of me; I can't understand how you don't see all government as a threat, and blindly stand behind them under a false illusion of security. Governments are controlled by people, people who don't care about those under them. You have got to be blind, if you can't see this within your own life.

Humans need leadership and organization to function. Otherwise there would be chaos.

"All government is a threat"? No. Not all.

Have you ever heard the term power corrupts. Well thats probably one of the reasons we choose to vote on Presidency every 4 years. The thing is our country in not run by those who are in office. They are controlled by outside sources that never loose control, which keep our government corrupted. If you want to get right down to it, our government is just as afraid of these corrupted powers as its citizens. The problem is no one wants to fight the government, but yet to fight these corrupted powers, we would have to first take out the government.

Behind every government is a shadow organization that controls it? Yeah, right.

Creating borders and restricting immigration was the first sign of freedom loss in this country. Requiring citizenship is the first step in organized oppression. Borders should not be closed to anyone unless oppression is what you really want.

You want to stay here temporarily for a vacation or something? Our borders are open. You want to come here to live and go to school and work? You'd best start studying for the citizenship tests. And another thing -- you overstay your temporary pass (or come here illegally) and get caught? You get deported and lose all eligibility to re-enter -- no more vacation or citizenship for you.

We also need to stop with the dual-language thing that's been happening on signs and labels. We speak, read, and write in English here. You're free to speak whatever language you want while you're here of course, but signs and such should be English-only.

1 person liked this | cliffordcooley cliffordcooley, TechSpot Paladin, said:

Humans need leadership and organization to function. Otherwise there would be chaos.
Lets just say I don't believe that, especially not continental wide government. We can survive with only localized government.

Behind every government is a shadow organization that controls it? Yeah, right.
It wasn't so long ago, they were saying the same thing about government surveillance. Believe what you will, but there is a reason for all the speculation around JFK's assassination.

1 person liked this | miguel11 said:

Humans need leadership and organization to function. Otherwise there would be chaos.
Lets just say I don't believe that, especially not continental wide government. We can survive with only localized government.

Behind every government is a shadow organization that controls it? Yeah, right.
It wasn't so long ago, they were saying the same thing about government surveillance. Believe what you will, but there is a reason for all the speculation around JFK's assassination.

@ShadowLeaper all of the above demonstrate your political ignorance or you as been part of the government propaganda machine. I am not here to talk about immigration or hatred against immigrants but about corruption within governments. Have you seen, or read, the movie/book Animal Farm or 1984 by George Orwell (you can look on YouTube)? Do you think an authoritarian, totalitarian, mind control government is not possible (e.g. North Korea)? Are we heading into that direction (if we are not there already)? Weren't Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Franco, etc totalitarian regimes? Let?s analyze what totalitarian regimes does.

Kidnapping, torture, executions of citizen without due process of law (with drones), wars of aggressions (what is most commonly known in international law as CRIME AGAINST PEACE), indefinite detention of prisoners (Guantanamo and other black sites), eavesdropping without court order, government constantly lying about everything (mind control propaganda or what is more commonly known as perception management in PSYOPS), etc?

Aren?t the above measure taken by the US Government? Who is behind all of this? Who benefit monetarily? You are claiming that,

Behind every government is a shadow organization that controls it? Yeah, right.

Well YEAH, in case you did not know most member of the US Congress end up working as lobbyist for the companies who lobbied them when they were in office earning millions of dollars (YouTube: US Politicians for Sale?). Most federal offices executive appointees comes from military, financial, pharmaceutical, insurance, etc. industries. Whose money puts a president or congressmen in office? The peoples? money? Have you heard the expression,

MONEY IS NOT FREE SPEECH, CORPORATIONS ARE NOT PEOPLE (YouTube)?

Where that expression comes from (Trustees of Dartmouth College v. Woodward & Buckley v. Valeo)?

As you can observe the US Government is CONTROLED by external forces, not the people. What is the definition of a DEMOCRACY? RULE BY THE PEOPLE. Are we living in a democracy or a totalitarian regime? Did you know that many prestigious universities do not teach that the US of A is a democracy? Sheldon Wolin (political philosopher) call it Inverted Totalitarianism, others call it Manage Democracy, and there are many other definitions for the same thing.

Now if you have read/watch the book/YouTube video Animal Farm by George Orwell the book talks about a totalitarian regime, which turns into a democracy (through revolution), and then the politicians become so corrupt that they turn that democracy back into a totalitarian regime which then is overthrown back into democracy (through revolution). Those are the cycles of the western political systems. We are now at the stage where the government officials have become so corrupt that they are turning what it used to be a democracy into a totalitarian regime.

You claim that,

Humans need leadership and organization to function. Otherwise there would be chaos." All government is a threat"? No. Not all.

Have you heard the expression,

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men." John Dalberg-Acton

Those in government think they have absolute power and they can do as they wish. That is why governments become easily corrupted by external forces, all will depend on the political system (e.g. Direct Democracy or Pure Democracy). YES, GOVERNMENTS OFFICIALS (THE GOVERNMENT) ARE A THREAT TO THE PEOPLE.

What HUMANS need is A humane systems of governments where the need of the people are taking care of, not the need of a few oligarchs, plutocrats who create a totalitarian regime to enrich themselves with tax payers money. That humane system of government is called DIRECT DEMOCRACY where representative are not needed and the people take direct control of their own government (e.g. Switzerland).

So as I have proven, you do not know what you are talking about. You have been so brain washed by the mainstream media propaganda that believe everything you are told. You are a political illiterate, read more and then we will discuss.

1 person liked this | miguel11 said:

By the way, about JFK assassination mentioned by cliffordcooley above, it was a Coup Detat, watch the 10 chapters BANNED (by court rule) History Channel documentary "The Man Who Killed Kennedy" on YouTube.

By the way, not all corporations are bad, generally speaking I am talking of the corporations which heavily depend on government contracts (taxpayers money).

Guest said:

Sounds a bit far-fetched.....

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