You are in the comforts of your own home, you turn on your laptop and you get prompted the following message:

"There are wireless networks available. View them now?"

You click and see the following:

"The following wireless networks are available: 1) FelipeIsGreat 2) LinksysDSL 3) Netgear"

You click 2 "Please enter key: " You close
you click 1 "Connecting....You are now connected."

Have you just commited a crime?

Have you not commited a crime, but done something unethical?

I've seen very heated discussions on both sides, so I wanted to ask experts their opinions.

Some people say, "You left your network unlocked, so it's your fault."
While the opposite party says, "If I leave my car unlocked in a parking lot and you take it for a joy ride, it's still wrong."

Some people say, "You can't compare that, because I didn't tresprass at all."
While the opposite party says, "If I paid for the service, and you are using it, therefore you are stealing, regardless if my network is encrypted or not."

Anyone have some clarification.

This is completely speculative on your governments legislation. You'll have to remember that the internet is not localized to an individual state/province/country/continent. There are certain states in the US which have outlawed connecting to a private network without authorization. Then there are also states with no legislation against this at all.

I would have to say that it should be illegal. Just like when a person "hotlinks" (which is illegal everywhere btw) and is stealing bandwidth from another site. That is what you are doing there.

"If I leave my car unlocked in a parking lot and you take it for a joy ride, it's still wrong."I think we all know the right answer,don`t we ? The law may not have caught up with the technicalities yet,but truth is fairly obvious.

I had another thread soliciting the opinions about "wifi mooching."

Personally, I feel if someone leaves their wifi unsecure, it's their fault if someone mooches their bandwidth. I have 3 neighbors that don't secure their wifi. (I also have cable broadband in my house for my desktop.) But I can use my laptop on the wifi if I am not in the same room with my hard-wire router my desktop is using.

Personally I feel it's like watering the lawn. If your sprinkler lands on my grass, it's my benefit and you're paying the bill. IF you don't like it, orient your sprinkler onto your own grass. (in this case secure your wifi!)

Now the legalities vary from area to area.... that's another topic.

Now I don't use my neighbor's wifi very often, and I certainly don't use one exclusively. I try to rotate as often as possible when I do use it. The way I feel if they want to give me something for free, then so be it.

Personally, I feel if someone leaves their wifi unsecure, it's their fault if someone mooches their bandwidth.

It's their fault for sure, but you're still violating the law. It's kind of like if I left my car door unlocked with the keys in the seat. If you got in the car and took a joyride and get caught, you're in trouble. You just stole someones car. ;-)

In the UK, there is specific legislation as far as I'm aware that makes it illegal to deliberately connect to another persons network without permission, even if it's unencrypted.

no, because then I would be IN your property. In this case YOUR airwaves on on mine!

If you shine a light from your house and it illuminates my yard and I can use it, oh well....

It's their fault for sure, but you're still violating the law. It's kind of like if I left my car door unlocked with the keys in the seat. If you got in the car and took a joyride and get caught, you're in trouble. You just stole someones car. ;-)


Were you copying my example on purpose as a joke, or it was coincidence? :confused:

I don't think this example applies because as another poster said, in order to take a joy ride, you'd have to enter someone else's property and trespass.

Here you are in the comfort of your own home, and someone is bombarding your home with a signal. You never asked for it to enter your home and you made no attempt at "hacking" the wifi. You didn't apply any software to look up key numbers or try various passwords or anything...

You simply were sitting on the sofa with your laptop in the comfort of your own home and hit "connect" which happened to use the neighbor's signal.

From the posts, it sounds like this is illegal, if not illegal at least wrong, or if it's not illegal yet, it will be sometime in the future.


I don't personally do this, I have my own wi-fi and it's encrypted so I have no need. But I do have 2-3 signals from neighbor's showing up on the "available networks" list on my laptop.

It's their fault for sure, but you're still violating the law. It's kind of like if I left my car door unlocked with the keys in the seat. If you got in the car and took a joyride and get caught, you're in trouble. You just stole someones car. ;-)


leave that car on my front lawn and I have every right to move it.

hmmmm... another controversial topic.....

as far as I'm concerned, gimme something for free that I don't have to break into, and I'll use it if it's on my property.

I think its immoral, wrong, and all other synonyms. Just cause you have the ability to do something doesn't mean you should.

Just cause you have the ability to do something doesn't mean you should.

Just like picking your nose, or saying "nee" to old ladies.

IMO legal or illegal sometime has nothing to do with moral... eg: a lady was riding her motorbike suddently her pants got caught by the wheel, instead choosing to help cover her up everyone just stand and stare her naked... i'm pretty sure it not illegal (unless their a law against such thing, lolz) but defiently not a nice manner to do.

I just bought a router yesterday for my new laptop. i've got it up and running, but i see from available networks that my neighbour has wireless connection. How do I secure mine to stop others using it?

In the setup section of your router, there should be a section for W.E.P. and you can create a KEY. When you create a key it gives you a combination of 10 alphanumeric letters (If you do 64bit I believe). Once you turn this feature on in your setup menu, then no one will be able to use your network without entering that 10 digit combination.

That alone won't suffice. For one, WPA is more efficient then WEP but you're still better off disabling SSID broadcast & activating the MAC filtering on top of that.

Why don't you turn this to your own advantage?
Go see those neighbours, tell them you're "advanced" in secure networking, and would they be willing to fork over some bucks to you to make their (wide open) network secure?
When done, you should feel good (you made some extra cash), your neighbours should feel good (they are now protected) and nobody is even tempted anymore to poach someone else's bandwidth.

Nice thinking RBS :approve: :approve:

Why don't you turn this to your own advantage?
Go see those neighbours, tell them you're "advanced" in secure networking, and would they be willing to fork over some bucks to you to make their (wide open) network secure?
I do just that RBS! and gotten paided well for it! They ussually don't know it's wide open, they think it's "plug and pray".

However we now have hot spotting WaFI "wide area connection" through sprint and verizhon (w/ & w/o blue teeth) and wireless cafe's.
I have some local buisnesses that deliberately open thier bandwidth with a SSID broadcast name of WELCOME.
So I think the grey area just got cloudier or blurred.

With OP, I think it falls more into ethics. "Finders keepers" is illegal.

I found a wallet once that had no ID in it and had $100 in $20's, it also had a piece of paper in it with a telephone number. I called to find out it was a radio station in LA, Calif. testing "honesty" on the air. In the end I got to keep the $$$ for being an :angel: .

I talked with a cop friend of mine about this, he said "anything you find (whether or not it's on your property) is supposed to be turned into authorities, after 90days w/o claim, you then get to keep it. " otherwise it's "unlawful possesion of stolen/lost property" :eek:
So just finding an open wifi is just like finding my front door unlocked, it's not an invitation.
My 2¢ worth

So just finding an open wifi is just like finding my front door unlocked, it's not an invitation.


Amen.


Sean

sorry. I disagree. If I find your front door open, I'm ON your property. If you leave your property on my front lawn. it's on mine.

I guess I've been luckier. I've found unsecured money (not in wallets or with IDs)
many times in airplanes or on planes. Had there been ID I would have turned it in.

The first time was $200
the second ws $80

if you leave cash laying around..... oh well.

The signal from the WiFi has to be sent, I would argue that I own the signal, you using my signal without my permission is wrong. You can't argue physical property lines because without a Farady cage, you can't prevent bleed over in small physical areas.

the same argument can be said with someone bothered by BBQ smoke wafting over property then.....

...but why would you want to steal BBQ smoke?

Regardless of the the point of view each of us holds on this matter, there will ALWAYS be those that exploit a situation if the opportunity exists. Just my 2 cents worth! :(

...but why would you want to steal BBQ smoke?
Oh thats easy....some fool would steal my BBQ smoke to bottle and sell it
as food spice. :haha:

1.This is getting like the esoteric question:
If a branch falls from a tree in the deep forest and no one or nothing is there to hear it, does it make a sound?

2.So, to co-inside with that statement:
If they don't know you are stealing/piggybackin thier bandwidth and you don't get caught by a third party, is it still wrong?

my answers:
1.No, IMO-sound waves are not heard until there is an ear drum present.
2.Yes, Since I have to shave in the mirror with my eyes open, I will at least
know it's wrong for me.


P.S. could some one throw me a floaty? I think I fell into the deep end... :eek:
I think we scared "GeekWannaBe" all the way back to So. Fla?

I think in reality, there isn't a perfect analogy for this. Its sort of its own unique situation. BBQ smoke is a physical (visual, and whatever the word is for smell) thing. RF frequency you can't see or smell or hear or touch or taste, and it doesn't vary (much at least) on wind.

So its it own thing. To sum it up, I think its not cool to use someone elses bandwidth without them knowing.

There are some areas in the country were anti-smoking Nazis complain about smelling smoke from their neighbor's house. The point is, if you emit items from your house and it bothers your neighbors, they can complain or use it depending upon the local laws.

Personally, if I have a neighbor whose property falls on mine (be it a physical item, RF frequency, or whatever) I will use it if I feel the need. So if you're going to be on my property, or leave your stuff on my property, be forewarned.

So, if you don't like people using your WIFI band-width - secure it!
If you don't like your neighbor having greener grass than yours, stop sprinkling his lawn when you water yours!

There are some areas in the country were anti-smoking Nazis complain about smelling smoke from their neighbor's house. The point is, if you emit items from your house and it bothers your neighbors, they can complain or use it depending upon the local laws.

Personally, if I have a neighbor whose property falls on mine (be it a physical item, RF frequency, or whatever) I will use it if I feel the need. So if you're going to be on my property, or leave your stuff on my property, be forewarned.

So, if you don't like people using your WIFI band-width - secure it!
If you don't like your neighbor having greener grass than yours, stop sprinkling his lawn when you water yours!Forwarned is forearmed
:haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha:

Hey can I please have my shovel back?

1.This is getting like the esoteric question:
If a branch falls from a tree in the deep forest and no one or nothing is there to hear it, does it make a sound?

No, it makes sound waves, which are vibrations, they are only turned into "sound" when they are picked up by your ears, which then send the signal to your brain.
(That's what i think anyway :) )

Back to the topic.
Having a look on wikipedia I found this article about using open wifi:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warchalking

and a search on google gave me this:
http://www.warchalking.org.uk/

I still believe this is just the same as "hot linking" where you are stealing bandwidth from one because they happen to have a picture or something that you want to link to. Hot Linking is actually illegal. How is this that much differnet when instead of just using the bandwidth to display a picture some where else on the internet you are using it to browse the internet or hack into someones computer.

I also believe it's wrong, but I doubt anyone will mind if all you are doing is checking for emails, or the like.

Forwarned is forearmed
:haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha:

Hey can I please have my shovel back?
um, it's a nice shovel, I don't know how it wound up in my yard!

Well, uh, I was tryin ta fan the bbq smoke from da other nayhbour and
this wifi siginal hit me da head and well, I asked myself what could it be?
so I tryed to fan it too and well it sort of slipped, yeah yeah thats right,
it slipped outta my hands and and rickashayed off my front door, it flipped
way up in the sky and bounced off a cloud, yeah yeah thats it thats it,
it bounced off a cloud and landed on your roof, it slid down and ended
up right in the middle of your yard, yeah yeah thats it. It's my story and I'm stickin to it.
You know Tedster, the funniest thing is, I was standing right there,
and it didn't make no sound at all, none not one bang or whimpering sigh....go figger! :confused:





PS Oh Yeah, didn't I borrow that shovel from you 3 months ago? :haha:

was it to pick up the dog turds in the yard???? :haha:

Well I'm starting to see that piggybacking may only still be taking place in homes, other places seem to have secured their networks.

I was out of town this weekend. At the hotel, if I wanted to use their internet access it cost money to plug in. When I went to check what signals were available they were secured.

At the airport 2 wifi signals were available. When you go to click on them, one being the airports, you can look up flight info and other airport related info, but you are only in their "intranet" or whatever you want to call it. To go out to the internet you had to pay $8.00

The other option was Tmobile's wifi network, they also required you to purchase access to go outside and surf the intrernet.

Finally, there were internet kiosks available at a per minute charge.

I had no need to goto the internet, I was just killing time, and it was more of an experiment related to this thread.

I never personally did piggyback since I have my own network, but I never saw this as an offense because the signal invaded your home and you weren't hacking looking for a loophole, but just clicking, "network available" , "OK".

But now I see a lot of people do think this is just plain wrong and it's a form of indirect stealing. It has been an enlightening conversation.

:haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha:
Welcome back! Hope you had a good trip. :bounce:

:haha: welcome back
now your mind is clear about piggyback :bounce:

If I remember right(I was a kid,) in the 70's alot of people had those big satilite dishes and picked up cable TV. The cable tv channels had a problem with that, but the law was made if it's in the air it can be picked up. The cable tv channes started scrambling signals.

Illinois Man Fined For Piggybacking On Wi-Fi Service (http://news.yahoo.com/s/cmp/20060325/tc_cmp/183702832)

I hope more towns / cities / countries would build free wireless networks. We have those in some towns here, and I've read London is making one too.

there was also a case where a man was powering his home through magnetic induction off power lines. He didn't physically hook up power, but he did pick up strong magentic field lines next to the large transmission lines close to his poroperty. Using the faraday effect, he was able to convert the magnatism back into power.
He lost the suit from the power company who said he was stealing.

there was also a case where a man was powering his home through magnetic induction off power lines. He didn't physically hook up power, but he did pick up strong magentic field lines next to the large transmission lines close to his poroperty. Using the faraday effect, he was able to convert the magnatism back into power.
He lost the suit from the power company who said he was stealing.
I not sure if that really is stealing if he is just converting the magnetic energy coming off the power lines into something that he could use. But all the same I say hand it to him for putting something like that together and actually getting it to work :).