Some democrats are trying to bring back the draft and obviously many are against it.

What are your thoughts and stand point on the issue?


For me. As a former soldier & combat veteran, I support the draft for certain reasons.

A lot of people say they support the military and appreciate what we did or do. But if the circumstances come around where the supporters suddenly get the call to duty for their country and become one of the soldiers they supported, what would they think then? Its easier to be a chairmanatarian and tree-hugger when you are sitting in your home with your family during the holidays. But would you be willing to fight for your country and beloved freedom that you once cheered for from the comfort of your home.

I believe, from my experience, that the military is not for everyone but if you are called to serve duty you should do it with pride and honor like millions have done before. Yes there are bad apples in the military just like everywhere else but that does not mean you are made that way, you make yourself that way.

So would I support the draft, yes I would.

I believe everyone should serve 5 years in the military just to experience what its like to be taken away from loved ones and serve in envoirments that you have only watched from your TV. Nobody is too good to serve for the military in my eyes.

This separates the rockstars from the groupies, which one are you?

Would you serve or would you run for Canada?

Obviously I`m from the UK, so I can`t really comment on the US`s way of doing things.

That said, we used to have a draft here in the UK, only it was called national service, where all eligible men had to serve 2 years in the armed forces.

I for one would gladly support the return of the said national service should it ever be reinstated. I believe it would be of great benefit to both the county as a whole and also to the individual as well. Whether it will ever happen here is another question.

I already have a son in the army. He`a been in for 8 years and has served in northern Ireland, Germany and Iraq. He is due to go out to Afghanistan sometime next year.

Regards Howard :)

I, too served my country in the Army. I just retired in 2004 after 25 years of service. I entered in 1989 and retired and I'll have to admit, I agree with the draft, but if the only reason is due to the events in the middle east, I can't support it. Don't get me wrong; I believe that with the way the world events and terrorism at the forefront, we need to defend ourselves, but I've had too many friends (and relatives) serve over there and they've had nothing good to say. It's more political than what we are being led to believe. Oil shipments are being pumped out of the ground, but then they are mysteriously disappearing once barrelled up and placed on ships. I have a very good friend in Logistics (full bird colonel) and he was responsible for reports and accounting of these shipments. They would show up as inventory, and then be stricken from shipment records. When he asked questions about the "paper trail" since he was responsible (his signature was affixed to these reports), he was told to shut up and not ask questions.
I also spent a tour working in the now defunked CONUSA's, where small numbers of RA supported the Reserves, and I have to admit that after serving three years in that environment, anyone who wants to join the reserves should serve a minimum of 2 years in the Regulars. There is no sense of urgency, no direction and the leadership was a sham. The higher ups were mostly those who were RIFFed from the active components, or attained the officer ranks due to college and short Officer Branch schools administered by the Reserve program.
All in all, yes, I would support it, but that's my opinion based upon the fact that I served honorably and faithfully.

To be honest sghiznaneck said pretty much how I feel on the topic. Yes it should be done, just not for the current mid-east occupation.

I, too served my country in the Army. I just retired in 2004 after 25 years of service. I entered in 1989 and retired and I'll have to admit, I agree with the draft, but if the only reason is due to the events in the middle east, I can't support it. Don't get me wrong; I believe that with the way the world events and terrorism at the forefront, we need to defend ourselves, but I've had too many friends (and relatives) serve over there and they've had nothing good to say. It's more political than what we are being led to believe. Oil shipments are being pumped out of the ground, but then they are mysteriously disappearing once barrelled up and placed on ships. I have a very good friend in Logistics (full bird colonel) and he was responsible for reports and accounting of these shipments. They would show up as inventory, and then be stricken from shipment records. When he asked questions about the "paper trail" since he was responsible (his signature was affixed to these reports), he was told to shut up and not ask questions.
I also spent a tour working in the now defunked CONUSA's, where small numbers of RA supported the Reserves, and I have to admit that after serving three years in that environment, anyone who wants to join the reserves should serve a minimum of 2 years in the Regulars. There is no sense of urgency, no direction and the leadership was a sham. The higher ups were mostly those who were RIFFed from the active components, or attained the officer ranks due to college and short Officer Branch schools administered by the Reserve program.
All in all, yes, I would support it, but that's my opinion based upon the fact that I served honorably and faithfully.

I work for the reserves and agree. Good people to know but..............

The Iraq is just what it is......a blender. Soldiers react to orders from the president. Too many bad calls were made from the white, too trigger happy, must be texas thing.

My opinion is that we should have never been there to begin with the information that was initially given to us. Yes its definately a ground for terrorists and the world council has a duty to stragetically plan out such duties to minimize these factions.
We had an awesome plan to kick *** and take names in the beginning but a dillusional plan after "the war ended" which obviously never stopped.

I believe in a draft but we could bring in too many of the wrong people, anti-goverment/anti-americans "factions" This process needs to be carefully planned out before executing another blundered order

BTW Howard.

Good luck to your son:approve:

I don't believe in the draft. Poor kids, mostly black and unable to afford college, go into the draft. The rich kids and students in college can avoid the draft. It is a racial and economically biased system that I don't agree with.

A better system would be to free up some of the overcrowding prisons. Innmates can choose if they want to serve or not, those that serve get their sentence removed or reduced.

I don't believe in an involuntary military.

I think that people shouldnt be forced to go into the armed forces but instead server on their own free will.

I think that people shouldnt be forced to go into the armed forces but instead server on their own free will.

It should be and it is currently but if a major crisis like the one in the middle east happens, what are going to do? Run our people into the ground and keep sending them back to back rotations with little to no pause of recovery?
Not possible.

For those of us who have served in a war, the experience is very mentally challenging and physical to say the least. No matter what kind of position you do, you can come of in three types of ways or a combination of two.

1.Body Bag

2.Missing a limb, wounded etc...

3. Post traumatic syndrome (I.E.... hysterical,depressed,anxiety etc..

Now lets say you ever exposed to these connditions for say a year. Then went home to normal life, for say 6 months, only to turn around to go back to hell because there are not enough people to rotate around to give other units to recover. The draft would help solve this issue

It should be and it is currently but if a major crisis like the one in the middle east happens, what are going to do? Run our people into the ground and keep sending them back to back rotations with little to no pause of recovery?
Not possible.

For those of us who have served in a war, the experience is very mentally challenging and physical to say the least. No matter what kind of position you do, you can come of in three types of ways or a combination of two.

1.Body Bag

2.Missing a limb, wounded etc...

3. Post traumatic syndrome (I.E.... hysterical,depressed,anxiety etc..

Now lets say you ever exposed to these connditions for say a year. Then went home to normal life, for say 6 months, only to turn around to go back to hell because there are not enough people to rotate around to give other units to recover. The draft would help solve this issue


I see your point it i would only support the draft if it were like in a really really bad situation. this is kind of off-topic but one of my dad's brothers when he came back from the war he would only listen to the radio and would always tell a storie of how he encountered another soldier and he had to kill him with his helmet b/c he had run out of ammo he became insane and eventually he would always listen to the radio have a radio every where he went. he would wake up in the middle of the night scared and sweaty, well this was kind of offtopic but i just wanted to share

I don't believe in the draft. Poor kids, mostly black and unable to afford college, go into the draft. The rich kids and students in college can avoid the draft. It is a racial and economically biased system that I don't agree with.

A better system would be to free up some of the overcrowding prisons. Innmates can choose if they want to serve or not, those that serve get their sentence removed or reduced.

I don't believe in an involuntary military.


I believe prisoners should be sent to a war, only certain ones though. If they hold up and do well in their tour then they should be let back in society.

Rich kids should be the first ones thrown in the military because some of them, if not all, need a dose of real life.

College kids tend to join the military for the educational benefits already or have already graduated and become officers.

I see your point it i would only support the draft if it were like in a really really bad situation. this is kind of off-topic but one of my dad's brothers when he came back from the war he would only listen to the radio and would always tell a storie of how he encountered another soldier and he had to kill him with his helmet b/c he had run out of ammo he became insane and eventually he would always listen to the radio have a radio every where he went. he would wake up in the middle of the night scared and sweaty, well this was kind of offtopic but i just wanted to share

I can't say I share is exact experience but understand him.

Afghanistan+Iraq did not "happen". Some people decided that they do have enough young men to send off to die and made a decision to create a "crisis". And now when the blood stores are starting to run dry, it has become necessary to bring in the fresh meat.

IMO draft is good - you get a population that you can rely on in a defensive crisis. OTOH, I think that for any foreign missions only volunteers or professional soldiers should be used.

The biggest problem I see over the recent discussions about reinstating the draft is because this war is so unpopular, we've been lied to since the beginning about the real reason behind the war, and people have wised up to the intentions of that guy in the White House. He used the guise of terrorism to gain support for his going into Iran. Just take a look at the recruitment stats here. When I retired in 2004, the age for enlistment was 17 (with your parents consent) to age 32. Now, it's still 17 with consent, but it's been upped to 42 now. That tells you something. They're offering $40,000 in bonuses to a hollow military. Our young are more educated today than when I enlisted in 1989, and they can smell a scam a mile away. When this country was going through the thralls of Vietnam, the masses condemned the wrong people, the soldiers. Today, it's the complete opposite. The blame for the failures are not put on the soldier who's doing his job and shedding his blood, but the lying politicians. Do you think they would send their kids? No. In all the members of the House and Senate, there is only one politician who has a son in the military AND serving in Iraq. I can't remember his name, but he's from Arizona or New Mexico. I can't remember, but this was something that hit the news a few weeks ago. Although I am in support of the draft, I am NOT in support of the draft if the main purpose is to send our sons and daughters to the middle east under the ruse of terrorism.

I believe there are only 8 sons or daughters of politicians in Iraq.
There needs to be more, then they might think twice before dropping us in a blender/blunder like this again.

My wife and I both served in Iraq at the same time, she got out once here ETS date came around but she just recently got back in and received a 20k bonus.

I believe prisoners should be sent to a war, only certain ones though. If they hold up and do well in their tour then they should be let back in society.

Rich kids should be the first ones thrown in the military because some of them, if not all, need a dose of real life.

College kids tend to join the military for the educational benefits already or have already graduated and become officers.

Prisoners are in jail for a reason; they don't belong in society. If we do allow them to be sent into society for a country's sake, we should have a strict filtration system that would not allow the "murderers" and other people back into the "streets" where they do not belong. Maybe people who have shorter sentences (i.e. poeple who have "ripped" off the IRS, or something like that).
What I am curious on is your paragraph about "rich" kids. I tend to disagree with your theory, because like all of the other "kids" in society, they need to go into the armed forces in a draft (unless they are some politicians family member). I do realize that some bribing had gone on with certain people getting drafted, although times have changed. I feel that the only time we have a draft is when we are extremely short-handed or we are in a terribly fierce battle.

EDIT:
And what techwarrior said was completely wrong. All races and nationalities have to go into a draft. No one has a choice either. Our country is a lot different from when we had our last draft as well.

Prisoners are in jail for a reason; they don't belong in society. If we do allow them to be sent into society for a country's sake, we should have a strict filtration system that would not allow the "murderers" and other people back into the "streets" where they do not belong. Maybe people who have shorter sentences (i.e. poeple who have "ripped" off the IRS, or something like that).
What I am curious on is your paragraph about "rich" kids. I tend to disagree with your theory, because like all of the other "kids" in society, they need to go into the armed forces in a draft (unless they are some politicians family member). I do realize that some bribing had gone on with certain people getting drafted, although times have changed. I feel that the only time we have a draft is when we are extremely short-handed or we are in a terribly fierce battle.

EDIT:
And what techwarrior said was completely wrong. All races and nationalities have to go into a draft. No one has a choice either. Our country is a lot different from when we had our last draft as well.


I said some criminals, not all, the death row inmates should be used to clear IEDs and even if they survived they still get to be executed

I said rich kids need to go, I give a damn about political immunity

Regardless, it should be in place by the time the festivities with Iran begin.

Regardless, it should be in place by the time the festivities with Iran begin.

Or if things become worse, North Korea.

I was drafted in May, 1968. I was not poor (though I am now), I was not black (and am not now), so cannot speak from personal experience about the "evenhandedness" (or lack thereof) in administering a national service system, but I do believe some sort of "draft/national service" system should be implemented. Not now, however, just to bolster the wrong president in the wrong war.

I agreed with the process that led us into Afghanistan, and the dismantling of the terrorist-training Taliban regime. (Still can't fathom how our vaunted "intelligence" machinery weren't able to find the tallest man in the country)

Our entry into Iraq was predicated on false information and outright lies, and has led to nothing better than the establishment of Iran, Jr., and a new terrorist training base, so I believe the only people who should have to serve there are staunch Bush/Cheney/Haliburton supporters, friends, and relatives. Once we have managed to extricate ourselves from this morass, Congress should consider a mandatory service system, and implement it ONLY after a 2/3 majority of BOTH branches on BOTH sides of the aisle approve it.:knock:

We can find the cow with mad cow disease by its state, handler and what stall its in or the spinach with ecoli by state, farm and garden its in.

But we cannot find the most wanted terrorist in the world. Seems a bit strange.

Maybe we need to the health department to search for Bin Laden

I agree with you, Hewybo. I believe it would be a good thing to supplement our enlisted personnel with civilian draftees in cases of extreme need for a just cause... frankly, I don't know enough about the current mess in the Middle East to offer an informed opinion on the matter, but from what little truth I can glean between the spin we get from the government AND the news, this doesn't seem to fit the bill as a completely "just war".

I believe the military is a very good thing -- it teaches discipline and trust for fellow soldiers -- but I believe it would be tragic to just feed more and more people into a hell hole if there is no clear strategy for victory. I cannot help but feel like we would be sacrificing some of the bravest and most heroic Americans for the wrong cause.

Granted, terrorism is absolutely terrible, and tyrants shouldn't be allowed to remain in power (take World War II for instance!)... but things going on right now just feel as if they've gone way beyond solving either of those problems and... well, I honestly don't know what's going on.

Gosh... my mind was everywhere in that post. I guess I say all that to say that there is absolutely a time and a place for a draft, but now isn't it.

Terrorism is terrible.....WTF ever! We shouldn't use a draft! First off, there have been many war horror stories about people going crazy after fighting a war. Second of all, instating a draft means the government can legally kill you. The Army, Marines, etc. have all been glorified, but let's show the picture they don't show you...OVERLY HARD DRILL OFFICERS YELLING COMMANDS INTO YOUR EARS LIKE YOU'RE A DOG, AND THEN MAKING YOU DO THINGS YOU NORMALLY WOULDN'T DO....
In short, I would rather jump off a bridge than be instated into the draft, and that's being nice...or I would just simply dodge the draft.....

Hmm... honestly, I think we agree on more about this issue than you think.

First off, there have been many war horror stories about people going crazy after fighting a war.

That's absolutely true. War is a horrible thing, there's no denying that. I actually labeled myself a full pacifist until very recently, when I just couldn't get out of my mind that there really wasn't any other way around World War II (I'll use that as an example since it was recent). Even then, though, the word "terrible" doesn't even begin to describe the horrors that people saw in that war. However, when you consider the even greater horrors that were brought to an end as a result, I believe that in the end, we can look back on that war as a "just war". (If you can't tell, I belong to the "just war" school of thought.)

Second of all, instating a draft means the government can legally kill you. The Army, Marines, etc. have all been glorified, but let's show the picture they don't show you...OVERLY HARD DRILL OFFICERS YELLING COMMANDS INTO YOUR EARS LIKE YOU'RE A DOG, AND THEN MKAING YOU DO THINGS YOU NORMALLY WOULDN'T DO....

Yes, those are uncomfortable parts of the military. Part of the reason why drill officers are so tough is to instill in their soldiers the fact that what they are undertaking is not easy, not pleasant, and certainly not to be taken lightly. Granted, there are certainly drill officers that go "over the top" with this... and the military is definitely not without its faults. But as for the government "legally kill you"? That seems a bit extreme... Although I believe the current mess we're in over in Iraq isn't ideal, I don't for a second believe the government is intentionally trying to kill our men and women in uniform. I may disagree with them, but let's not go overboard here.

In the case of a draft, I'll reiterate what I said before... there's a time and place for it in the case of extreme and dire need, [I]but now is not it. As citizens of this nation, we must expect that if our country were under attack and the personnel of our military were not sufficient to adequately defend against the enemy, there may come a time when we must act on her behalf.

Granted, not everyone is comfortable with taking up arms against an enemy. There are alternative ways of serving your country in that case. I just can't support the idea of deserting... if we were run by a tyrannical government, that would be one thing, but let's face it -- we may not always agree with those in power at the moment, but things could be much worse. If we're going to be citizens of this country when everything is A-OK, then that means we must still be citizens when things aren't. And that may require us, much as it makes us uncomfortable, to do something.

Anyways, I respect that you hold a very strong opinion on this matter, and thanks for your reply.

Thank you. Finally someone understands my opinion...

I actually labeled myself a full pacifist until very recently, when I just couldn't get out of my mind that there really wasn't any other way around World War II (I'll use that as an example since it was recent). Actually, there were many ways. Starting with proper support to devastated Germany after World War I. Or with, at the last moment, decisive action to prevent the German remilitarization of Rheinland or the annexation of Czechoslovakia and Austria. Or, any opportunities in between (strengthen non-nazi political forces). It is just that no one really cared or foresaw what was coming. We all know better now :)

I've taught some war veterans. They didn't take too kindly to "agent orange".

What would the health dept. have to say about the effects of the the foliage killer.

Would the war against terror be over if Bin Laden was caught ?

Our huge population (India), has one significant benefit to offer : never any need for drafting.

Terrorism is terrible.....WTF ever! We shouldn't use a draft! First off, there have been many war horror stories about people going crazy after fighting a war. Second of all, instating a draft means the government can legally kill you. The Army, Marines, etc. have all been glorified, but let's show the picture they don't show you...OVERLY HARD DRILL OFFICERS YELLING COMMANDS INTO YOUR EARS LIKE YOU'RE A DOG, AND THEN MAKING YOU DO THINGS YOU NORMALLY WOULDN'T DO....
In short, I would rather jump off a bridge than be instated into the draft, and that's being nice...or I would just simply dodge the draft.....


You have never experienced the military, you watch too many movies.

War doesn't really make you crazy, it all depends on your experiences. Everyone comes back changed forever, some more extreme then others, but not necessarily crazy. I came back with Post traumatic Syndrome as did my wife but it went away eventually.

Its only like that in the movies and in basic training.
You are not allowed to follow illegal commands.

Do you do things that you would not normally do? Umm your in the military, there is no such thing as normal anymore, only to an extent.

I would rather jump off a bridge than be instated into the draft, and that's being nice...or I would just simply dodge the draft.....


Your opinion...but thats very unamerican.

As I said before. The military is not for everyone but if you are drafted then you should do what you need to do with all your heart into it and get out when your time is done.

Running and hiding is not the answer. If you live in america then you should be proud to serve it, no matter what.

By the way. Do not believe the media about all the crap thats going on in Iraq, yes of course its violent but thats the only thing they show.

They do not show soldiers helping Iraqi children, building schools, giving out supplies, playing games with the iraqis,etc......... I was pissed off at the media,especiall CCNN, when I came home and saw the news. They are diong a horrible job on the covering the entire aspect of the war. They are covering only the abuse, deaths and corruption. Hell you can do that in any country not fighting a war:mad:

The media only feeds you **** so they can get the ratings, Remember violence and sex sells.

as an active duty soldier for 11 years and active duty military for 16 years plus being an ex-recruiter for 3 years, I am 100% for the draft. Unfortunately, the vast majority of those elgibile for enlistment are either morally, educationally, or physically disqualified. I believe in a unilateral draft, where those that are unfit for military service should do at least 2 years of national service.
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smore9648

You are absolutely correct. The media and the Iraq commission have no idea what they're talking about. I am in Iraq now.

I'm too old to be afected by a draft... I was classified IV F for Vietnam

This is in no way meant to offend anyone but in my opinion is how the war is broken down


Jews dislike and dont like Palistinian occupation in their country

Palistinians are sick of taking crap from the Jews

Palistinians rebel against the instigating Jews ( some where along the lines people in power turned a group of people standing up for themself into acts of terrorism)

Palistinians are backed by some surrounding countries

Surrounding Countries Bomb Isreal

There are more Jews in the United States than in Isreal

American Jews are very powerfull buisness men

Buisness men fund political campains

Politicians Listen to people that fund their campains

The US interviens in affairs that dont concern them

Certain countries and radical groups take offence to USA's interference

These Countries and groups now see the USA as a enemy

These countries and groups take action on their enemy

The American public not knowing what is really going on under the sheets sees this as scensless terrorism and demands justice.

The Politicians use these demands to keep our troops over there for the to finish their real agenda.


Does the USA know where Bin Laden is ? Yeah we do, it wasnt hard to keep tabs on him when we funded his private army to occupy afgahnistan to keep russian forces at bay during the cold war......The truth is we THE USA made Bin Laden into the dreaded militant he is now. We instilled the power into him 30 years before the towers fell......So why dont we just find and execute Bin Laden already ? Because the longer we can be convinced there is a future threat the long our troops can inadvertantly protect the Jewish Holy Land......

I am not racist against jews, I am not a nazi and I really dont care if a fella is black white red brown or yellow....If he worships Jesus or hollows at the moon when the mood stricks him right.....It just dont take much to see what got us into the mess we are in the first place.....


A draft ? I think that if a draft is reneiwed its should apply equally to everyone...I dont care if you are Richy Rich attending Harvard......You can be pulled from your self centered future political career studies and be thrown into combat right next to the guy that was pulled from his 2 jobs that sheltered and fed his wife and 2 year old daughter.....

my beef with the draft is that all men aged 18-24 years are eligible for service. anyone 18 or older can join up if he/she desires. but the drinking age in every state is too high (21). i figure than anybody who puts themselves at such great risk for their country deserves the basic freedom to get drunk. after all, once you turn 18 you gain the right to vote, own firearms, and serve in the military. i suppose if they changed the drinking age back to 18 as it was before the 1980's i wouldn't have a problem. but the drinking age is a whole different argument

Sure, blind drunk soldiers on leave carrying firearms is a good thing :p

my beef with the draft is that all men aged 18-24 years are eligible for service. anyone 18 or older can join up if he/she desires. but the drinking age in every state is too high (21).
Thats the reason you don't like the idea of the draft?

as an active duty soldier for 11 years and active duty military for 16 years plus being an ex-recruiter for 3 years, I am 100% for the draft. Unfortunately, the vast majority of those elgibile for enlistment are either morally, educationally, or physically disqualified. I believe in a unilateral draft, where those that are unfit for military service should do at least 2 years of national service.
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smore9648

You are absolutely correct. The media and the Iraq commission have no idea what they're talking about. I am in Iraq now.

My wife and I were both there in 2003. I got med boared and she ETSed but she just got back in again.

Good luck

A draft ? I think that if a draft is reneiwed its should apply equally to everyone...I dont care if you are Richy Rich attending Harvard......You can be pulled from your self centered future political career studies and be thrown into combat right next to the guy that was pulled from his 2 jobs that sheltered and fed his wife and 2 year old daughter.....


YUP!!;) Damn skippy

my beef with the draft is that all men aged 18-24 years are eligible for service. anyone 18 or older can join up if he/she desires. but the drinking age in every state is too high (21). i figure than anybody who puts themselves at such great risk for their country deserves the basic freedom to get drunk. after all, once you turn 18 you gain the right to vote, own firearms, and serve in the military. i suppose if they changed the drinking age back to 18 as it was before the 1980's i wouldn't have a problem. but the drinking age is a whole different argument

You can drink in germany at 18 if you are in the service, unless it changed since I left, which was 2003.

People will drink no matter what their age is, I only drank once under the age of 21 and I didn't like it. I don't see the big deal about drinking. I do drink my beer occassionally but nothing excessive.

We can find the cow with mad cow disease by its state, handler and what stall its in or the spinach with ecoli by state, farm and garden its in.

But we cannot find the most wanted terrorist in the world. Seems a bit strange.

Maybe we need to the health department to search for Bin Laden


I goofed last time. I was in page 1, and didn't use the 'Quote'.
Later, I was surprised to find my posting quite some place else, and totally out of context.

So I'm reposting the message.

>>>

I've taught some war veterans. They didn't take too kindly to "agent orange".

What would the health dept. have to say about the effects of the the foliage killer.

Would the war against terror be over if Bin Laden was caught ?

Our huge population (India), has one significant benefit to offer : never any need for drafting.

>>>
__________________

Certa Bonum Certamen

I would rather jump off a bridge than be instated into the draft, and that's being nice...or I would just simply dodge the draft.....

With that attitude you don't have to jump, I would push you off myself

Sure, blind drunk soldiers on leave carrying firearms is a good thingi doubt alcohol is a mystery to anyone in the military, regardless of their age. soldiers do not bring weapons with them when on leave.People will drink no matter what their age istrue. in my opinion a 21 year old drinking age is a bit ridiculous. part of the problem is the driving age of 16. young, new drivers have not had sufficient experience with alcohol and thus generally are less likely to use it responsibly. the drinking age was raised for the purpose of reducing intoxicated driving amongst young people.

what if we had a european style system here, where beer becomes available to people at age 16, wine and hard liquor at 18. the driving age would be 18, just like that in germany?

Correct me if I am wrong but german teenagers do not receive their liscense as easily as we do and vehicles in germany are expensive

They have to pay like 1500 to get a driver's lisc but then its a lifetime drivers lisc.

that is true, smore9648. the fee is either 1,500 euros or 2,500 euros (not sure which). by contrast, i paid $1,800 for my first car. i paid a total of $210 for plates, title transfer, etc. and was able to get my license in a flash. unlike the tests in germany and many other countries, the qualifications for receiving your license are simple knowledge of your turn signals, lights, and gearshift, and the driving test is even easier. a lot of terrible drivers get thier licenses, even if they clearly can't judge distances. gas is more expensive in europe, so people are generally more inclined to ride a bike, carpool, drive economic vehicles, and take public transportation. i'm sure the hefty cost associated with getting a license in germany causes people to take it more seriously, in general.

i think that it is a simple flaw with the american system tries to introduce driving to people at a relatively young age (16) and introduces alcohol much later (21). in germany, people are allowed to drink beer at age 16, so that, by the time they become eligible for driving privileges at age 18 they have plenty of experience with alcohol and act accordingly (more responsibly)

this thread has gotten far off topic...