Downloading TV shows illegal? (in the US)

So does anyone have any clear law that actually states whether or not downloading poor quality, recorded off tv, tv shows is illegal? I've been reading around (even checked the MPAA site-ewwww) and couldn't find anything clear. Everyone has a different opinion. Anyone got some facts?


Thanks guys!

....but try the link http://www.wisegeek.com/is-it-legal-to-download-television-shows.htm. It seems to have about the best explanation of it. Definitely a hair-splitting topic though.

downloading any copyrighted material without payment in general, is illegal, unless you already own and have purchased a copy.

Or, unless the copyright holder is actually giving away the thing for free.. (Otherwise, downloading virtually anything would be illegal)

If it is shown on broadcast OTA tv, ie - not cable, there is a good chance that the content is avaiable legally from the source (abc, cbs, nbc, fox) on their website.

Not exactly the answer I was hoping for ;) But truth is truth. Hehe, alright, thanks guys! A little clarification never hurts.

If you havnt bought a copy of the show yourself any type of copying is illegal. I think you're tryin to get around the truth.

In the Centre Of The World you mean.. In many countries, it is legal to make private copies of works of art. (It is illegal to share that stuff to a wider audience of course)

well, here's the US Copyright law (http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#107)

I'm too tired to read it ;)

The only confusing thing is that there are no clear leaders of the internet. This can cause many, many problems due to the laws of different countries :confused: . There should be one set of laws for the internet throughout the world, I think.

And how would you enforce those laws? You would have to punish people in the real world, not the internet. And in the real world it is the countries' laws that apply .

Say, I have sex with a 16-year-old in a country where this is legal. And then chat on the subject with the same 16-year-old on the internet (where the age limit may be 18 because the US is the Centre Of The World and all). I would be punished for the latter and not the former?

I second Nodsu

IP is really not that tricky, at least from a moral standpoint. Whether it is software, a book, a photo, a video, music, sculpture, a website, etc., the creator/owner of the IP should be compensated properly for the use of his/her work. It is also a no-brainer from a practical standpoint since it is unlikely that we would have so many cool products and/or choices were it not for properly compensating the creators of IP. Of course, the phrase 'the law is an ***' immediately comes to mind when anyone tries to parse the legality of using IP.

I can see this has evolved into a huge discussion. There's a whole realm of law on intellectual and property rights. Of course you need to be a lawyer, and I won't debase myself by becoming one. ;)

Of course you need to be a lawyer, and I won't debase myself by becoming one. ;)
Good way to put it!:D

Nathan's original question doesn't seem to have a clear answer. I mean, you have VCR's, HTPC's, TiVO's, DVR's, Win MCE, etc... that all record tv for viewing later and are sold to the general public (yes I know that you pay for TiVO). So that would lead me to believe that you can record tv as long as you do not share it with anyone with out permission.

But then with US copyright laws who knows?

It seems as if everything contradicts itself, but somehow, they don't :suspiciou .

Whether it is software, a book, a photo, a video, music, sculpture, a website, etc., the creator/owner of the IP should be compensated properly for the use of his/her work.

Who says what is "proper" compensation? Also, copyright does not mean authorship. A company may be making millions, while the original author may have just gotten his wee monthly salary and nothing more.

So, say, there was a TV episode that was broadcast all over the nation and got 100 million "paid" views. How am I hurting the author or the copyright holder if I add 5 "unpaid" views to that? And how is it different from, say, watching cable at my friend's? Sure, he paid for his cable, but I and the other guests didn't. So we are stealing the TV episode, aren't we?!

I think this is an interesting topic. I am not a fan of copyright laws. Though the question does arise how would they make revenues if people are simply going to "steal"? Anyone got a take on this point?

Obviously if there are a million paid users I don't see how companies would be hurt by copyright "infringement", as the profit margins of such companies are as wide as the distance between the earth and the sky.

If people are selling copyright material as if its their own and making money out of it then I would say thats wrong though.

Look at it this way.. What would happen if all the entertainment companies went bankrupt?
Do you think there would be no more music, movies, art, books, games?

Nothing bad would happen. There would be new companies using different principles to operate. There would be thousands of independent artists with fresh ideas getting a chance now that the barrier of uptight corporate producers is gone. There would be artists who actually have control over their work instead of contracts that give everything to the mother company and a tiny percentage to the creative genius.

Who says what is "proper" compensation? Also, copyright does not mean authorship. A company may be making millions, while the original author may have just gotten his wee monthly salary and nothing more.

The marketplace, of course. The original author always has the recourse of making more money by going off on his own. Not likely, of course, because there is much, much more to making money than simply being creative. That is why entire industries have sprung up around creativity to help with boring things like marketing/promotion, accounting, distribution, etc.

So, say, there was a TV episode that was broadcast all over the nation and got 100 million "paid" views. How am I hurting the author or the copyright holder if I add 5 "unpaid" views to that? And how is it different from, say, watching cable at my friend's? Sure, he paid for his cable, but I and the other guests didn't. So we are stealing the TV episode, aren't we?!

Using that logic, I think that we should rob a bank. After all, with all of their trillions of dollars in assets, how will a few hundred thousand taken from them hurt anyone? The cable TV analogy doesn't work, either. Cable providers charge based upon an average viewing household in their market and anticipate (and allow) such viewership.

Stealing is still stealing...

Using that logic, I think that we should rob a bank. After all, with all of their trillions of dollars in assets, how will a few hundred thousand taken from them hurt anyone? The cable TV analogy doesn't work, either. Cable providers charge based upon an average viewing household in their market and anticipate (and allow) such viewership.

Stealing is still stealing...

I don' think he was really saying that is the way he feels about it. I think he was just throwing out another "what if" variable.

The marketplace, of course. There is no such thing as "marketplace". It's a fantasy of some loony economics professors. In real world we have legislation, monopolies, psychological pressure, NDAs, imprisoning contracts, misinformation, FUD and ignorance.

Using that logic, I think that we should rob a bank. After all, with all of their trillions of dollars in assets, how will a few hundred thousand taken from them hurt anyone? That money I did not rob is indeed an asset. A TV show I did not download is not an asset. A book that I did not buy can still be sold. A DVD I did not rent was rented by someone else.

The cable TV analogy doesn't work, either. Cable providers charge based upon an average viewing household in their market and anticipate (and allow) such viewership. OK. And how much do my 5 "unpaid" views skew that average that was anticipated for tousands of households? Actually, if I just choose not to go to my friend's house tonight and download+watch the episode later on.. The total viewership is exactly the same, is it not?

Stealing is still stealing... As I mentioned above, this thing is legal in many countries. Actually, in this case "stealing" is what some collection of corrupt officials decided to write in some law somewhere.

Well, I suspect that this thread is going nowhere and will shortly be closed, but I will reply one more time:

There is no such thing as "marketplace". It's a fantasy of some loony economics professors. In real world we have legislation, monopolies, psychological pressure, NDAs, imprisoning contracts, misinformation, FUD and ignorance.

As someone who has spent his entire career developing new markets for new technology, let me state unequivocally that the marketplace does exist. Of course, it exists in conjunction with all of the other social and political forces peculiar to the human condition, but it does exist and has a significant influence on how business is transacted.

That money I did not rob is indeed an asset. A TV show I did not download is not an asset. A book that I did not buy can still be sold. A DVD I did not rent was rented by someone else.

Try telling that to the TV producers, actors, screenwriters, etc., with a straight face...

OK. And how much do my 5 "unpaid" views skew that average that was anticipated for tousands of households? Actually, if I just choose not to go to my friend's house tonight and download+watch the episode later on.. The total viewership is exactly the same, is it not?.

Just because the mathematics are complicated and need to be computed over a large demographic, it does not mean that they cannot be quantified. If your friend made a point of inviting one hundred of his nearest and dearest friends to his house every night and those one hundred friends never felt the need to pay for cable TV, themselves, it would have an effect on the cable provider and the rates would go up slightly for everyone else. If your friend built an ampitheater in his backyard and had ten thousand people show up every night, the effect would be even stronger. And what if your friend decided to charge admission to his viewings? Would that be okay since there is no change in viewership?

As I mentioned above, this thing is legal in many countries. Actually, in this case "stealing" is what some collection of corrupt officials decided to write in some law somewhere.

But, since just about all officials are corrupt (we certainly agree on that point), this argument can be made about any law, including bank robbery.


I have enjoyed this exchange, by the way. Good to think about something else for a change during the workday.

OK. And now I tell you. Drop everything you are doing and make your fortunes in something completely different. You are not allowed to use any ideas or methods you have developed this far, because these belong to me.

Try telling that to the TV producers, actors, screenwriters, etc., with a straight face... Okay.. I just did not download the lates Britney Spears album. How much money did that save her?



If your friend made a point of inviting one hundred of his nearest and dearest friends to his house every night and those one hundred friends never felt the need to pay for cable TV, themselves, it would have an effect on the cable provider and the rates would go up slightly for everyone else.But that is not the case, is it? And even if it was, so what? It is a flaw in the cable company's business model. (Besides, I am paying to the same cable company for my internet connection, so no money lost :) )


But, since just about all officials are corrupt (we certainly agree on that point), this argument can be made about any law, including bank robbery. No. There are written laws and unwritten laws. Real theft and murder are disallowed in every culture. It is the very essence of civilisation. No one would think to make muder legal (although some countries do have death penalty, which is nothing but licensed murder).

There would be no civilisation if copyright was inherent to humankind. If every song or scientific work or an idea was "copyrighted" and people obeyed that, we would still be somewhere in the dark ages burning the bard from the next village because he dared to sing a verse made up by our village singer.

There would be no civilisation if copyright was inherent to humankind. If every song or scientific work or an idea was "copyrighted" and people obeyed that, we would still be somewhere in the dark ages burning the bard from the next village because he dared to sing a verse made up by our village singer.

Wonderfully put !

The only confusing thing is that there are no clear leaders of the internet. This can cause many, many problems due to the laws of different countries :confused: . There should be one set of laws for the internet throughout the world, I think.

That would cause everything to be more restrictive. If fact it already has. In The European Union, those countries who had more liberal copyright laws were forced to tighten them to align themselves with the rest of the EU when the Digital Millenium Copyright Act was enacted.

There would be no civilisation if copyright was inherent to humankind. If every song or scientific work or an idea was "copyrighted" and people obeyed that, we would still be somewhere in the dark ages burning the bard from the next village because he dared to sing a verse made up by our village singer.

It is easy to argue that the purest form of human creativity is that which is undertaken without the idea of compensation. It would also end the need for copyright legislation, Since what you don't expect to be compensated for can't technically be stolen from you. "I did it because I can, And now I'll share it with the rest of you without charge"! So if all of you altruists go through life with this philosophy, then you will have earned the right to take the point of view that copying is not stealing, provided of course, that you can come up with something worth stealing, er copying.

Don't we have another thread on a similar topic somewhere in this forum?

I figure... you can record tv (essentially making a copy) as much as you like...

so I guess it isnt illegal. Perhaps uploading it online could be less legit, but downloading is alright I would think

Well... Recording TV is pretty easy today, If you're saying recording TV is illegal, then the people who made Tivo are going to be sued BIG TIME!!! :haha:

I have a ATI TV Wonder which lets me record TV shows that I like ( like the documentaries on History / National Geographic Channel or some shows on Cartoon Network :D ) and if recording is illegal, then anyone who owns that card will be arrested and thrown in prison for recording their favorite episode of The Simpsons or something :|

Well... Recording TV is pretty easy today, If you're saying recording TV is illegal, then the people who made Tivo are going to be sued BIG TIME!!! :haha:

I have a ATI TV Wonder which lets me record TV shows that I like ( like the documentaries on History / National Geographic Channel or some shows on Cartoon Network :D ) and if recording is illegal, then anyone who owns that card will be arrested and thrown in prison for recording their favorite episode of The Simpsons or something :|


I was saying it CANT be illegal... :P


cos stuff like tivo and dvd recorders would not be sold o_O

I was saying it CANT be illegal... :P


cos stuff like tivo and dvd recorders would not be sold o_O

When a television or radio station decides to broadcast any material, the artist, owner, producer, distributer, whoever, has already been compensated for the "works", consequently they (the stations) are, to the extent to which it applies to royalties, the end user. They have initiated the "download", so to speak. The issue of taping off-air broadcasting was settled decades ago, and although some in the industry would like a "do over" on that, it still resides under a "fair use" doctrine. Just don't attempt to re-re-broadcast it, for any reason.

The silliness of threads like this comes into play when you try to carry this "fair use" doctrine into realms where it was never intended to go, and certainly can't apply.

If you beg, borrow, or steal an episode of of a TV show and make it available on the internet, you breech the fair use doctrine, since you aren't the original purchaser of the work. Only the original purchaser, (the TV or radio station), has the right to initiate the "download", the original broadcast.

Certain copy protections are built into DVRs (TIVO and the like) in an attempt to prevent the migration of copyrighted material beyond the machine in question, if not to the owner/artist/studio's complete satisfaction, at least to the extent of legal compliance.

The best argument against copyright legislation is this one; when you ,I, or anyone outside the entertainment industry goes to work, whether it's picking up trash or building rockets to the moon, we get paid on Friday and that's the end of it. Like that's gonna fly.

A store bought DVD recorder WON'T copy a protected source, and it's illegal to modify it to do so. But it certainly can be used for creating a DVD from an off air broadcast.

This is certainly a contentious issue and I get the feeling the entertainment industry would like you to give them royalties for showing the new DVD you just purchased to the rest of your family. This seems like asking for more than you can hope to get in an attempt to get at least as much as you actually expect.

Probably the best course of action with copyrighted materials is this; use good judgment, employ an ethical standard of fair play and decency. Be vigilant and active in confronting new methods of DRM, learn which of your rights are being usurped. Try not to patronize companies which are leading the charge against fair use, Sony comes immediately to mind. "I don't care how many rootkit trojans they put in my computer I'm going to buy a PS-3"! Do you see how contra-productive that sounds?

Remember, expecting unfettered reuse of copyrighted materials is asking far more than you can ever expect to achieve. The only thing you will accomplish is pissing off their corporate lawyers. They have the time, money, legislation and backing to make your life miserable, all we have is each other.

Remember, "discretion is the better part of valor".

this is actually a question i have been wondering on for a while as i live in australia i miss out on alot of good shows due to not having foxtel and having crappy tv reception(i only have 2 channels out of 5) so i have to download alot of tv shows i want to watch.being that they are recorded off tv, i do remember a couple of years ago they finally made it legal to record things off tv.so wouldnt it make sense that if its recorded off tv it would be allowed to be posted on the internet for free-sharing? forgive me for coming into this but i was browsing while bored and i had been wondering, also forgive me if this has been answered or exlained, been awake for way too long lol