I don' think he was really saying that is the way he feels about it. I think he was just throwing out another "what if" variable.

There is no such thing as "marketplace". It's a fantasy of some loony economics professors. In real world we have legislation, monopolies, psychological pressure, NDAs, imprisoning contracts, misinformation, FUD and ignorance.

That money I did not rob is indeed an asset. A TV show I did not download is not an asset. A book that I did not buy can still be sold. A DVD I did not rent was rented by someone else.

OK. And how much do my 5 "unpaid" views skew that average that was anticipated for tousands of households? Actually, if I just choose not to go to my friend's house tonight and download+watch the episode later on.. The total viewership is exactly the same, is it not?

As I mentioned above, this thing is legal in many countries. Actually, in this case "stealing" is what some collection of corrupt officials decided to write in some law somewhere.

Well, I suspect that this thread is going nowhere and will shortly be closed, but I will reply one more time:

As someone who has spent his entire career developing new markets for new technology, let me state unequivocally that the marketplace does exist. Of course, it exists in conjunction with all of the other social and political forces peculiar to the human condition, but it does exist and has a significant influence on how business is transacted.

Try telling that to the TV producers, actors, screenwriters, etc., with a straight face...

Just because the mathematics are complicated and need to be computed over a large demographic, it does not mean that they cannot be quantified. If your friend made a point of inviting one hundred of his nearest and dearest friends to his house every night and those one hundred friends never felt the need to pay for cable TV, themselves, it would have an effect on the cable provider and the rates would go up slightly for everyone else. If your friend built an ampitheater in his backyard and had ten thousand people show up every night, the effect would be even stronger. And what if your friend decided to charge admission to his viewings? Would that be okay since there is no change in viewership?

But, since just about all officials are corrupt (we certainly agree on that point), this argument can be made about any law, including bank robbery.


I have enjoyed this exchange, by the way. Good to think about something else for a change during the workday.

OK. And now I tell you. Drop everything you are doing and make your fortunes in something completely different. You are not allowed to use any ideas or methods you have developed this far, because these belong to me.

Okay.. I just did not download the lates Britney Spears album. How much money did that save her?



But that is not the case, is it? And even if it was, so what? It is a flaw in the cable company's business model. (Besides, I am paying to the same cable company for my internet connection, so no money lost )


No. There are written laws and unwritten laws. Real theft and murder are disallowed in every culture. It is the very essence of civilisation. No one would think to make muder legal (although some countries do have death penalty, which is nothing but licensed murder).

There would be no civilisation if copyright was inherent to humankind. If every song or scientific work or an idea was "copyrighted" and people obeyed that, we would still be somewhere in the dark ages burning the bard from the next village because he dared to sing a verse made up by our village singer.

Wonderfully put !

That would cause everything to be more restrictive. If fact it already has. In The European Union, those countries who had more liberal copyright laws were forced to tighten them to align themselves with the rest of the EU when the Digital Millenium Copyright Act was enacted.

It is easy to argue that the purest form of human creativity is that which is undertaken without the idea of compensation. It would also end the need for copyright legislation, Since what you don't expect to be compensated for can't technically be stolen from you. "I did it because I can, And now I'll share it with the rest of you without charge"! So if all of you altruists go through life with this philosophy, then you will have earned the right to take the point of view that copying is not stealing, provided of course, that you can come up with something worth stealing, er copying.

Don't we have another thread on a similar topic somewhere in this forum?

I figure... you can record tv (essentially making a copy) as much as you like...

so I guess it isnt illegal. Perhaps uploading it online could be less legit, but downloading is alright I would think

Well... Recording TV is pretty easy today, If you're saying recording TV is illegal, then the people who made Tivo are going to be sued BIG TIME!!!

I have a ATI TV Wonder which lets me record TV shows that I like ( like the documentaries on History / National Geographic Channel or some shows on Cartoon Network ) and if recording is illegal, then anyone who owns that card will be arrested and thrown in prison for recording their favorite episode of The Simpsons or something :|

I was saying it CANT be illegal... :P


cos stuff like tivo and dvd recorders would not be sold o_O

When a television or radio station decides to broadcast any material, the artist, owner, producer, distributer, whoever, has already been compensated for the "works", consequently they (the stations) are, to the extent to which it applies to royalties, the end user. They have initiated the "download", so to speak. The issue of taping off-air broadcasting was settled decades ago, and although some in the industry would like a "do over" on that, it still resides under a "fair use" doctrine. Just don't attempt to re-re-broadcast it, for any reason.

The silliness of threads like this comes into play when you try to carry this "fair use" doctrine into realms where it was never intended to go, and certainly can't apply.

If you beg, borrow, or steal an episode of of a TV show and make it available on the internet, you breech the fair use doctrine, since you aren't the original purchaser of the work. Only the original purchaser, (the TV or radio station), has the right to initiate the "download", the original broadcast.

Certain copy protections are built into DVRs (TIVO and the like) in an attempt to prevent the migration of copyrighted material beyond the machine in question, if not to the owner/artist/studio's complete satisfaction, at least to the extent of legal compliance.

The best argument against copyright legislation is this one; when you ,I, or anyone outside the entertainment industry goes to work, whether it's picking up trash or building rockets to the moon, we get paid on Friday and that's the end of it. Like that's gonna fly.

A store bought DVD recorder WON'T copy a protected source, and it's illegal to modify it to do so. But it certainly can be used for creating a DVD from an off air broadcast.

This is certainly a contentious issue and I get the feeling the entertainment industry would like you to give them royalties for showing the new DVD you just purchased to the rest of your family. This seems like asking for more than you can hope to get in an attempt to get at least as much as you actually expect.

Probably the best course of action with copyrighted materials is this; use good judgment, employ an ethical standard of fair play and decency. Be vigilant and active in confronting new methods of DRM, learn which of your rights are being usurped. Try not to patronize companies which are leading the charge against fair use, Sony comes immediately to mind. "I don't care how many rootkit trojans they put in my computer I'm going to buy a PS-3"! Do you see how contra-productive that sounds?

Remember, expecting unfettered reuse of copyrighted materials is asking far more than you can ever expect to achieve. The only thing you will accomplish is pissing off their corporate lawyers. They have the time, money, legislation and backing to make your life miserable, all we have is each other.

Remember, "discretion is the better part of valor".

this is actually a question i have been wondering on for a while as i live in australia i miss out on alot of good shows due to not having foxtel and having crappy tv reception(i only have 2 channels out of 5) so i have to download alot of tv shows i want to watch.being that they are recorded off tv, i do remember a couple of years ago they finally made it legal to record things off tv.so wouldnt it make sense that if its recorded off tv it would be allowed to be posted on the internet for free-sharing? forgive me for coming into this but i was browsing while bored and i had been wondering, also forgive me if this has been answered or exlained, been awake for way too long lol