Extreme fluctuations in ping

I rechecked with the tool a couple of times after my post, and the IP of the 'Gateway' device was still there after 23:00, only now it was listed as a 'Network Device' instead of 'Gateway'. So it didn't disappear, but it did 'change'.

From the top;
There are only two network devices (that I know of) and they are the modem and the router. They both belong to the house owner, but I have a feeling that they have no clue as to how to properly operate them, as they told me that 'restarting them' fixes everything.

The modem is located on a shelf in the hallway, in theory everyone has access to it. The RangeMax router is right next to it, so everyone has access to that as well. I don't think anyone is managing any configuration. These people strike me as the 'take for granted' type, and I think they just assume internet is there. I assume that because the house owner just told me to reset both of them out of nowhere, which would in theory give me complete access to it (they told me I could just do that whenever I wanted/needed to, so I don't think they have a clue what they're doing).

The (visual) wiring is like this: --Modem--Router(RangeMax)~~YourSystem. Also, note there are no wired connections anywhere in the house except the modem--router connection. Since the RangeMax (visible) router remains online through the night etc, the router that changed name from 'Gateway' to 'Network Device' would have to be the one possibly inside the modem or out of sight. If it's out of sight it would mean it's only connected through WiFi though.

I just looked at the Modem a little more closely, and it is a 'ZyXEL P-2602R-D1A'. It looked completely normal to me, except for one thing. It had two 'Phone' ports on it, like it's a router but just for phone lines. I'm not sure, never seen it before. I'll add a picture so you can see for yourself.

Normally I'd believe that someone was messing with me, except now I don't think the house owner has a clue what they're doing. Why would they allow me 100% access while trying to 'mess with me' at the same time...?

Edit: Breakthrough, I think. While I was uploading the picture for this thread, my ping spiked up massively for a very short while. I made the logical link that uploading was maybe causing the high ping and lack of internet. I ran an upload test of 30MB (Testmy.net/upload) and the results were as expected. From a constant 20-40 ping, it spiked up to ~600 constantly. The latter is the kind of ping I have during the day. Input?

Well, those 2x phone jacks are to provide voice lines for the homeowner - - that's a DSL modem after all (see attached.)

We agree the homeowner doesn't have a clue what they're doing.
No one is changing the wiring.

Here's my problem:
Networks flow from one device to another SERIALLY, eg the modem->router.
A router always has an IP address (while a hub or switch never do). Having an address and given serial traffic
causes tracert to show each device (or node) in the path to the destination.

Therefore, tracert showing

1. 192.168.1.35
2. 192.168.1.254
3. 82.169.27.254

clearly says you have 'a circuit' like modem->router(254)->router(35)->yourSystem.

The attachment shows the ZyXEL has an address at 192.168.1.1 and this is the issue and
thus the reason you MUST change the WiFi router address to 10.0.0.1.
YOU CAN NOT HAVE TWO ROUTERS IN THE SAME SUBNET (eg 192.168.1.x).

If you're saying that 192.168.1.35 is a router, then it's probably the printer interfering, since I'm sure the printer has .35 as address. To be sure the tracert doesn't show old values, I'll tracert again later tonight and post the results.

Changing the IP address of the router will have to wait until sunday night because that's when I'll have access to a sufficiently long UDP cable.

Did you give the upload-related theory a thought?

On a DSL link, uploads will have an impact. It would appear that the ZyXEL is adversely effected (never did like those things).

Let's not become obsessive on what 192.168.1.35 is or is not - - rather let's focus on getting a network
layout tha is known to work. After that, I expect it to not matter at all.

btw: You should be able to remove the WiFi router, take it to your room, fix it and then return it to it's proper place - - just a thought.
.

Alright, agreed. If I'm able to remove, then change, then re-attach the router, things are much easier. I'll try to get to work tomorrow, and update you afterwards.

Is there anything we can do to further investigate the uploading thing? I did a tracert again and the .35 device was gone entirely, the route now goes Localrouter (.254)->ISP->(Bunch of other IP's)->Google.

The pingtimes on those hops were like this (approx): 30->600->600->600 ->etc.
On my second try at tracert, the pingtime on the local router listed this:
1 182ms 171ms 64ms 192.168.1.254

It clearly shows a fluctuation in the 3 pingtimes to the local router. What could be causing such a difference?

Home routers arent meant to be hung off of each other, routers would a. have to be hooked up via crossover cable, b. on the same subnet period reguardless of what others say (how the hell do you think you can back to back 2 router interfaces together like a CISCO for a lab??? HMMMM) 3. Use one number off the same network as the first one for the ip address of the 2nd router 4. if this doesnt work save yourself a crapload of grief and replace the router with a plain switch

Alright, in short (I tried...), here is a list of what's happened today:

1) I disconnected the router, took it upstairs, reset it and accessed the router page. The page was password protected, and I found out the routers provided by my ISP have custom firmware on it to be instantly compatible with their modems. This software also builds in another default password and a firmware-upgrade block.

2) I set the router address to 10.0.0.1 and followed your instructions. I experimented a bit with different channels, to see if interference had anything to do with the issue, and to a certain extent it did. One channel would have 30-300 ping, while the other had 30-600 ping. After a while of testing, all channels blurred into the same ping-range of 50-800 with spikes to thousands or 'request timed out'.

3) I looked up this specific router from this specific ISP, and noticed many many people having trouble with it. Basically it's causing nothing disruptions in connection, lot's of people experience disconnects, slow internet, etc. They all said to return the router and get another, decent, router.

4) Both tracert and pathping trace to my router, and time out after that. They never seem to reach my ISP's address. Despite this, internet connectivity seems to work (albeit very slow, with disconnects here and there, like I'm used to by now) 'normally'.

My questions:

- Is it possible their custom (but very outdated, theirs is at 1.0.3 or something, and the latest is 2.0.26) firmware is messing things up? If so, is there any way to update the firmware despite the update-block? People wrote that even manually updating is restricted.

- Could it be that local channel interference is messing up the signal? I did see a difference between certain channels in the moments just after reboot.

- Why can't tracert and pathping reach my ISP? Could it still be that they're messing up on their end? After all we saw the ping spiking up from the pathping hop between me and the ISP.

- After reading and assessing all this, wouldn't it just be easier to urge the house admin to contact the ISP and if need be return the router for another? Or even change ISP if things persist?

Edit: I looked further into the frequency thing, and downloaded "inSSIDer" to scan my area for used frequencies and channels. I saw a few heavily used ones, but this graph stood out for me. My router (blue one) has a frantic graph, going up and down in frequency like crazy. That can't be good, right? Is that the routers fault? Could it be what's causing my problem?

================================================================

Tracing route to google-public-dns-a.google.com [8.8.8.8]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 2 ms 1 ms 3 ms 10.0.0.1
2 * * * Request timed out.
3 * * * Request timed out.
4 * * * Request timed out.
5 * * * Request timed out.
6 * * * Request timed out.
7 * * * Request timed out.
8 * * * Request timed out.
9 364 ms 401 ms 188 ms google-public-dns-a.google.com [8.8.8.8]

Trace complete.

==================================================================================

Hmm; (4) & the tracert results are "interesting" in that those nodes were reporting previously.
The destination was reached, so this indication indicates that they are not responding to the ping
but still passing traffic. If it were one or two I might buy that but all eight as simultaneous changing ???

I would go for the firmware update - - but that's locked out.

Is it possible to connect a laptop directly to the modem (ie borrow one from you buddy) then Try the tracert again.
I suspect the ZyXEL.

Not true. Downlink from A going to uplink on B is perfectly legitimate and creates a new subnet. Standard cables work just fine.

Yes, that's using the second device as a switch

Except he wants the WiFi feature (not available in switches).

Use the 2.4 GHz tab to find the channels used in your location. You show 24 wifi routers in the time graph - - WOW, that's heavy interference. Pick a channel with the fewest competitors.

For the record, the ZyXEL has these features:
Router

• NAT (includes multi-to-multi NAT)/SUA, 512 NAT Sessions
• NAT Server (Port Forwarding)
• VPN (IPSec, PPTP, & L2T support NATTP) pass through support NAT
• Protocol and Generic Packet Filter
• DNS Proxy
• Dynamic DNS (www.dyndns.org)
• IP Alias
• DHCP client/server/relay
• supported RIP I/RIP II
• Support 16 IP Static route
• IGMP v1 and v2 IP Multicasting,
• IP Policy Routing
• UPnP support
• Centralized log

I picked a channel with no one on it, and that changed nothing. I'm thinking the frequent frequency changes have something to do with it.

Also, I don't understand a thing about that list of features, what does it mean?

just fyi info on the device.
The availability of DHCP and 512 sessions tells us we could use your WiFi router as a switch, still keeping the WiFi
but allowing the ZyXEL to provide the IP assignments.

Wired RouterA-lanport-->yourRouter's Uplink will isolate the WiFi users from the ZyXEL. If the whole house needs WiFi then that becomes moot.

Wired RouterA-lanport ->wifi router lan port will run it as a switch, but you need to disable the DHCP service in this router.
All wifi configuration is still active and can be modified as needed.

Try it, but I think the ZyXEL is a major contributor here and the motivation to get off the 192.168.1.x subnet.

Ok, but I am on the 10.0.0.x subnet already. So if removing the DHCP from the router doesn't fix it, you reckon we should replace the ZyXEL?

Ok, more slowly.

• ZyXEL is on 192.168.1.X
• Netgear is now on 10.0.0.x

If you connect the ZyXEL(lan port) --->(lan port)Netgear, THEN AND ONLY THEN do you disable DHCP on the Netgear.

The ZyXEL will provide all DHCP support, all systems will be on the 192.168.1.x subnet and the Netgear will still provide WiFi access to all users.

btw: I understand the tracerout timeouts when ZyXEL(lan)-->(wan)Netgear and you are on the 10.0.0.x subnet.
PING (including pathping and tracert) use UDP connectionless protocol so there's no socket for the far end to use when making the reply. The ping reply spews UDP response to the requester (ie your 10.0.0.x address).
When it reaches the ZxYEL 192.168.1.x device, there is no route to cause the reply to reach your 10.0.0.x address and the reply is tossed - - causing all the timeouts. (sorry I didn't remember this when I saw it. )

This is a good thing (for securing) but complicates file sharing across subnets. It is fixable, but that requires access to the config page of the ZyXEL.

Action items:
Wire a connection to the Netgear and disable the dhcp. save and logout
Reconnect ZyXEL(lan port) --->(lan port)Netgear and leave the Netgear WAN port (uplink / internet) slot empty.

Alright, final update + conclusion:

I talked to the house admin, and they're looking into a new ISP and a new subscription. One that comes with an actual mechanic + router + modem.

I think part of our problem is because the router firmware is 4 years old (Oh dear, I know) and that the router has custom firmware for a completely different ISP. This custom firmware prevents me from updating it to regular updated firmware, and thus from letting me turn it 'back' into a 'normal' router. I told this to the house admin and they said "Yeah, when we first got this subscription we didn't get a router/modem with it yet, so I just goofed off with cables until it worked..."

In the end, I/we didn't figure out a concrete problem and solution, but my issues will probably be fixed with a new ISP. Also, my ping now always shows "request timed out", even when I DO have internet. Same goes for tracert and pathping. They all time out after hopping to the router. I read up op on this, and most conclusions were that the firmware of the router was to blame; nothing I can do there.

I want to thank you for all the effort you put into this problem. You may not have solved the problem, but you certainly helped me well on my way in better understanding networking for the future .

I think I would finger the ZyXEL as the issue. ANY device that old, with locked down firmware which is several levels behind the curve HAS GOT TO BE SUSPECT

be sure to see the comment above (btw: I understand the tracerout timeouts...)

This thread should be of some assistance in getting the new ISP and its equipment installed.

Keep me post - - best wishes, Jeff

Just to be clear: the ZyXEL is not the one with the locked firmware. The router has locked firmware.

However I've just managed to update the firmware to another ISP custom version, a bit newer. It now shows me my ping again, and now the problem seems to be that there is simply 'not enough internet' to do anything. The ping shoots up whenever I even load a website, speedtest indicates I have 300kb/s tops.

Netgear is not locked - - what leads you to that conclusion?

DSL max's out at 756kb

If the DSLis the 'poorest' link in the chain, then tracert will show the link from your network to the ISP Gateway
as the largest time and everwhere else should be better than that link.

Get me another tracert 8.8.8.8 please

Alright, here you go.

Tracing route to google-public-dns-a.google.com [8.8.8.8]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 2 ms 1 ms 1 ms 10.0.0.1
2 3 ms 24 ms 21 ms 192.168.1.254
3 28 ms 28 ms 28 ms 82-169-27-254.ip.telfort.nl [82.169.27.254]
4 42 ms 57 ms 31 ms core1.ams.net.google.com [195.69.144.247]
5 33 ms 31 ms 103 ms 209.85.248.118
6 32 ms 32 ms 74 ms 209.85.255.74
7 36 ms 37 ms 111 ms 216.239.49.28
8 * * * Request timed out.
9 52 ms 98 ms 202 ms google-public-dns-a.google.com [8.8.8.8]

Trace complete.

I noticed myself that the 'second router' popped up again under 192.168.1.254. I ran a pathping [8.8.8.8] again, and it was listed there too as a second router.