GeoHot must give Sony his hardware in PS3 hacking lawsuit

[Emil]

US District Judge Susan Illston has ruled that PlayStation 3 jailbreaker George Hotz, also known as GeoHot, must hand over his computer's hard drive to Sony. GeoHot's attorney, Stewart Kellar, objected since Sony would be able to see the contents of all his client's files, but Illston merely informed Kellar that this was routine, like in child pornography prosecutions.

"Your honor, we're certainly not dealing with child pornography in this issue," Kellar replied according to Wired. Illston did not change her mind. "Here, I find probable cause that your client has got these things on his computer," she said. "It's a problem when more than one thing is kept on the computer. I'll make sure the order is and will be that Sony is only entitled to isolate … the information on the computer that relates to the hacking of the PlayStation."

On the flipside, the judge changed her mind about an order for GeoHot to "retrieve" the code from anyone he delivered or communicated it to, changing her mind because she was not previously aware of all the details. "It's information. It can't be retrieved. It's just not practical," Illston said. "What would they do, Xerox it and mail it back? This kind of got away from me and I apologize for that."

Late last month, Ilston had originally ruled that the 21-year-old surrender "any and all computer hardware and peripherals containing circumvention devices, technologies, programs, parts thereof, or other unlawful material, including but not limited to code and software, hard disc drives, computer software, inventory of CD-ROMS, computer diskettes, or other material containing circumvention devices, technologies, programs, parts thereof, or other unlawful material." She also said the defendant "shall retrieve" code "which he has previously delivered or communicated" and gave GeoHot just 10 days to comply.

Kellar fought back for his client, and although he couldn't stop Sony from getting the 21-year-old's hardware, he did manage to gain more time and convince the judge that the retrieval part was impossible.

In the bigger scheme of things, Sony is still threatening to sue anybody posting or distributing PS3 jailbreak code. The electronics giant is demanding that a federal judge order Google and Twitter to surrender details of anyone who looks at the illegal content. This is despite the fact that Sony accidentally tweeted the PlayStation 3 security key earlier this week. A hearing for that is scheduled next month and Sony is seeking unspecified damages.

Sony's legal attacks against the hackers that released the PS3 root key and custom firmware began last month. The group known as fail0verflow is accused of posting a rudimentary hack in December 2010 after finding security codes for the PS3. It was refined by GeoHot weeks later when he independently found and published the PS3 root key. The resulting hacks allow homebrew apps and pirated software to run on unmodified consoles.

Permalink to story.

https://www.techspot.com/news/42380-geohot-must-give-sony-his-hardware-in-ps3-hacking-lawsuit.html

 

[Guest]

Can't he just simply delete the data before his hard drive is seized???

 

[Emil]

Guest said:
Can't he just simply delete the data before his hard drive is seized???

No, the judge has ordered him not to touch any of the data on his computer before handing it over.

 

[Guest]

More evidence that Sony is evil. What it all boils down to now is that when you buy electronic device, you don't own it! It shouldn’t be a crime for you to access your own device, regardless of whether Sony or any other company likes what you’re doing! I quit buying Sony products in 2005.

 

[lawfer]

Emil said:

Guest said:
Can't he just simply delete the data before his hard drive is seized???

No, the judge has ordered him not to touch any of the data on his computer before handing it over.

Of course. But how can they tell if any data was removed or not, if they don't know the contents of his computer in the first place? If they did know, handing over the computer seems the perfect example of stupidity, futility, and redundancy.

 

[gwailo247]

On the bright side I hear there is a new VP position open at Sony.

 

[OUTLAWXXX]

Lawfer said:

Emil said:

Guest said:
Can't he just simply delete the data before his hard drive is seized???

No, the judge has ordered him not to touch any of the data on his computer before handing it over.

Of course. But how can they tell if any data was removed or not, if they don't know the contents of his computer in the first place? If they did know, handing over the computer seems the perfect example of stupidity, futility, and redundancy.

Thats what i'm saying, how WOULD they know what was missing?

 

[matrix86]

Lawfer said:

Emil said:

Guest said:
Can't he just simply delete the data before his hard drive is seized???

No, the judge has ordered him not to touch any of the data on his computer before handing it over.

Of course. But how can they tell if any data was removed or not, if they don't know the contents of his computer in the first place? If they did know, handing over the computer seems the perfect example of stupidity, futility, and redundancy.

They can trace your hardrive back to 14 wipes I think it is. So if they don't find anything, their tech specialists can just do their magic and find it. And if they have to do that, then obviously he's touched the computer, which is against court order, which leads to contempt of court which leads to more fines and possibly jail time.

I'm not even sure what they plan to gain from this. They know he distributed the code, why do they need it from his computer? All he has to do is print it out and now he has a copy that nobody will be able to find. And as for Sony wanting anyone who has looked at the code to be turned over...you;ve got to be kidding me. I've seen the code multiple times and I don't even have a PS3. You still wanna sue me? Where is the legality in this?

gwailo247 said:
On the bright side I hear there is a new VP position open at Sony

No, there isn't!!! Are people not paying attention to the articles? He's a CHARACTER on the sony commercials. He only plays the VP. The first line of that article even said so:
"Sony's Kevin Butler, A FICTIONAL CHARACTER PORTRAYED BY ACTOR JERRY LAMBERT..."
Seriously people, how hard is it to pay attention to a damn article (sorry, I have no patience for people like that, lol)

 

[Guest]

Dear Sony Corp:

The genie has been let out of the bottle and now you want to stuff it back in.
I think is too late for that

We the people have gazed upon the magnificent view of the the all seeing all knowing all hacking genie

Every cheater and hacker out there is just drooling.

If every hacking site in the world already knows about it it will be decades before you get that genie back in the bottle and even then you may not have all the parts

I say do this take your losses and your knowledge and put it into a redevelop PS4 an all new game console and shut down all PS3 sales and do not support any game development thus foiling all hackes

You should still sue the guy who did this and put him and a few of his hacker friends into the poor house to try and recuperate some of your losses

but it is too late

sorry
a PC user

 

[Guest]

I would refuse. That's like saying to someone "You have an illegal fork from Walmart so hand over your house to Walmart".

No offence to the judge in question who was ordered to take this case but don't you think they should have a judge that has "some" level of expertise in the computer field?

It's like asking an Orange to judge an Asteroid. Good luck getting any fairness out of this case.

 

[matrix86]

Guest said:
I would refuse. That's like saying to someone "You have an illegal fork from Walmart so hand over your house to Walmart".

BIG difference. The court has every right to search his computer. His computer contains illegal information used for illegal activity. This means the court has every right to take his computer. Either that or he can let them in and spend hours there searching his computer and doing what they need to do.

 

[gwailo247]

matrix86 said:

gwailo247 said:
On the bright side I hear there is a new VP position open at Sony

No, there isn't!!! Are people not paying attention to the articles? He's a CHARACTER on the sony commercials. He only plays the VP. The first line of that article even said so:
"Sony's Kevin Butler, A FICTIONAL CHARACTER PORTRAYED BY ACTOR JERRY LAMBERT..."
Seriously people, how hard is it to pay attention to a damn article (sorry, I have no patience for people like that, lol)

What article?

 

[Emil]

gwailo247 said:

matrix86 said:

gwailo247 said:
On the bright side I hear there is a new VP position open at Sony

No, there isn't!!! Are people not paying attention to the articles? He's a CHARACTER on the sony commercials. He only plays the VP. The first line of that article even said so:
"Sony's Kevin Butler, A FICTIONAL CHARACTER PORTRAYED BY ACTOR JERRY LAMBERT..."
Seriously people, how hard is it to pay attention to a damn article (sorry, I have no patience for people like that, lol)

What article?

https://www.techspot.com/news/42333-sonys-kevin-butler-tweets-playstation-3-security-key.html

 

[Cota]

Guest said:
Dear Sony Corp:

The genie has been let out of the bottle and now you want to stuff it back in.
I think is too late for that

We the people have gazed upon the magnificent view of the the all seeing all knowing all hacking genie

Every cheater and hacker out there is just drooling.

If every hacking site in the world already knows about it it will be decades before you get that genie back in the bottle and even then you may not have all the parts

I say do this take your losses and your knowledge and put it into a redevelop PS4 an all new game console and shut down all PS3 sales and do not support any game development thus foiling all hackes

You should still sue the guy who did this and put him and a few of his hacker friends into the poor house to try and recuperate some of your losses

but it is too late

sorry
a PC user

There are some things you cant/should be able to do, just because i have a gun i cant kill they guy i hate, hacking the PS3 is the same, accept it that theres hacks that shouldn't be allowed.

 

[matrix86]

Thanks Emil. Forgot to post it.

 

[Guest]

its about time companies start kicking pirates asses, they get away with too much and act like their crap doesnt stink

 

[Guest]

I'm not a gamer I don't own a console I don't even care, I just find it revolting that a company can tell you want you can and can not do, with hardware you OWN. IN truth every single person should be revolted about this and hold a protest not for what it is but what it could mean in the future. Would you be happy if when you bought a truck out right fully paid it off and then were given a fine and told to return the truck for adding some extra gear for 4-wheeling when the truck manufactures only "Wanted" that model to be used for towing.[Even though you 100% paid it off and hold a title.] Just think for the moment the madness of not being able to touch what you own how you want to. Maybe HP will start suing people for using CIS's instead of buying ink cartages, or logitech will sue people for using 3rd party button mapping tools for there keyboards and mice. This list of madness can go to far more disturbing places.

 

[Lurker101]

OUTLAWXXX said:

Lawfer said:

Emil said:

Guest said:
Can't he just simply delete the data before his hard drive is seized???

No, the judge has ordered him not to touch any of the data on his computer before handing it over.

Of course. But how can they tell if any data was removed or not, if they don't know the contents of his computer in the first place? If they did know, handing over the computer seems the perfect example of stupidity, futility, and redundancy.

Thats what i'm saying, how WOULD they know what was missing?

You'd be seriously surprised at just how much deleted data can be retrieved from a hard drive. If Hotz tries to delete all of the data, he'll be in much bigger trouble. Even if he does a secure drive wipe, he'll end up in trouble. After all, how do you explain to tech forensics the severe lack of deleted data?

 

[edison5do]

And now the Show Begins!! SONY PS3 SALE RANK UP to the skyes!! after if this kind code get to my country, it wil be a big Bang of sales of PS3!

 

[Wendig0]

matrix86 said:

Guest said:
I would refuse. That's like saying to someone "You have an illegal fork from Walmart so hand over your house to Walmart".

BIG difference. The court has every right to search his computer. His computer contains illegal information used for illegal activity. This means the court has every right to take his computer. Either that or he can let them in and spend hours there searching his computer and doing what they need to do.

"Illegal information used for illegal activity"

What illegal information/activity? Last I heard, violating TOS didn't equate to being against the law. I'm no attorney, but I see this as a 'freedom of information' case. It's also a case of whether the products you purchase belong to you or not. Hotz distributed information that he found on "HIS" PS3, and someone at Sony had a heart attack. Hotz can't be held responsible for what other people do with that information.

 

[Raswan]

Lurker101 said:

OUTLAWXXX said:

Lawfer said:

Emil said:

Guest said:
Can't he just simply delete the data before his hard drive is seized???

No, the judge has ordered him not to touch any of the data on his computer before handing it over.

Of course. But how can they tell if any data was removed or not, if they don't know the contents of his computer in the first place? If they did know, handing over the computer seems the perfect example of stupidity, futility, and redundancy.

Thats what i'm saying, how WOULD they know what was missing?

You'd be seriously surprised at just how much deleted data can be retrieved from a hard drive. If Hotz tries to delete all of the data, he'll be in much bigger trouble. Even if he does a secure drive wipe, he'll end up in trouble. After all, how do you explain to tech forensics the severe lack of deleted data?

Last time I checked, there are any number of legal programs that will do 30 writes/wipes of your hdd. Universities use them, the DoD uses them, corporations use them. I'm not a master of computer espionage, but I imagine if geohotz is capable of independently finding the root key he knows this, has this, and will use this. Say Sony gets his computers, and aside from an OS and a parody video of Sony with its eyes closed in fury trying to sodomize the whole internet out of petulance while one of its own accidentally lets slip the very data they are trying to protect out of sheer stupidity, there is nothing on them. How can they prove he wasn't practicing routine data security 10 minutes before the lawsuit was filed? Can't. So let's stop debating whether Sony is actually going to get any data back from geohotz. They know they won't, so they're using it as an opportunity to scare anyone and everyone who even thinks about using it. If I owned a PS3 (which I don't because it's a pointless console), I'd use it out of spite.

 

[matrix86]

Wendig0 said:
What illegal information/activity? Last I heard, violating TOS didn't equate to being against the law. I'm no attorney, but I see this as a 'freedom of information' case. It's also a case of whether the products you purchase belong to you or not. Hotz distributed information that he found on "HIS" PS3, and someone at Sony had a heart attack. Hotz can't be held responsible for what other people do with that information.

Hacking is illegal, and any code used for hacking is illegal. I'm on the border of this dispute. Hotz didn't intend for this to be used for evil, but it can be and he distributed it. It's not the same as buying a knife or gun. Sure the makers didn't intend on them being used as murder weapons, but they aren't against the law to own. Whereas creating and distributing dangerous code used for hacking is against the law. I do applaud Hotz for trying to make his system his own. Unfortunately, his code allows for people to cheat and do other things that threaten the security of others' systems.
This is how Sony and the law sees this situation. It's not so much about taking control of your own system, but more about the dangerous this code can (and will) lead to.

 

[Guest]

Matrix displays a toddlers comprehension of law. Best that he spend some time back in school rather than posting FUDI comments.

 

[Wendig0]

matrix86 said:

Hacking is illegal, and any code used for hacking is illegal. I'm on the border of this dispute. Hotz didn't intend for this to be used for evil, but it can be and he distributed it. It's not the same as buying a knife or gun. Sure the makers didn't intend on them being used as murder weapons, but they aren't against the law to own. Whereas creating and distributing dangerous code used for hacking is against the law. I do applaud Hotz for trying to make his system his own. Unfortunately, his code allows for people to cheat and do other things that threaten the security of others' systems.
This is how Sony and the law sees this situation. It's not so much about taking control of your own system, but more about the dangerous this code can (and will) lead to.

(http://definitions.uslegal.com/c/computer-hacking) Computer hacking is broadly defined as intentionally accesses [sic] a computer without authorization or exceeds authorized access.

By the legal definition, I don't believe Hotz can be found guilty of hacking, as he owned the system he got the code from. Since jailbreaking was declared legal in the US, I'm having a tough time discerning the difference between hacking and jailbreaking, and if jailbreaking only applies to phones, or does it apply to other electronic devices as well? If simply gaining root to a system you own, and telling others how to gain root to their's is illegal, then software developers, and their teachers should all be brought to the pokey in irons.

This is new territory for the legal system, and unless Sony can prove that George Hotz distributed the code with the intent to maliciously threaten the security of other's systems, then I see no case against him.

 

[matrix86]

Guest said:
Matrix displays a toddlers comprehension of law. Best that he spend some time back in school rather than posting FUDI comments.

Well excuse me for not going to law school. They don't exactly teach that kind of stuff in regular schools. I was a music major...my classes involved music, math, english composition, and history. And they don't teach law in high school. Simply pointing out my error would have sufficed instead of turning into a 3 year old with a comment like yours. We're adults here, let's act like them shall we?

Windig0, thank you for pointing out my error and correcting me in a mature manner and supplying me with the correct information. I appreciate it and apologize for my previous error.