Lionhead: second-hand console games more costly than PC piracy

Emil

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Game developer Lionhead has declared that second-hand sales of video games for the Xbox 360 are a bigger problem for the company than pirated video games on the PC. In other words, the resale or pre-owned games cost the company more in the long run than piracy does.

"Piracy these days on PC is probably less problematic than second-hand sales on the Xbox," Mike West, the lead combat designer for Fable III, which is made by Lionhead, told Eurogamer. "I've been working on PC games for many years and piracy is always a problem. There are a lot of honest people out there as well, and if they like your game they'll buy it. The pirates, whatever you do on whatever system, they will crack it. It might take no time... I think the longest it's taken to happen is two days. Someone will crack it somewhere and there's not much you can do about it."

Game publishers and developers do not like second-hand game sales because they don't get any money for the transaction. The party doing the reselling, be it Amazon, EB Games, or another retailer, reaps all the profits. The store stops being the middle man by cutting out the head honcho. Gamers can also obviously sell games directly between each other and then there really is no profit on the actual sale.

Game companies have tried various methods to fight back against the resale of previously-owned games. The most popular initiative is EA's Online Pass: new games come with a free code that can be redeemed to enable multiplayer or receive downloadable content. The code can only be used once, which means second-hand buyers have to buy their own online for around $10 or they won't get to use all the features of a given game.

Let's revisit piracy. West says the fact that people don't think it's worth spending money on computer games is a depressing situation. He insists that pirates are making sure there are fewer games coming out in the future and more people are out of work. He also believes that the only way to stop a pirate from not paying for a game is to have a face to face conversation with him or her, in order to explain the consequences of their actions.

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This is something people have been saying for a while now. Nice to have actual results proving it :p
 
Article won't load for me. Rest of em will. This is weird.

Also it's pretty obvious that piracy is not the reason why groups don't develop PC centric games. It's money. The only person who still believes that is TomSEA and frankly I think he has family who works for the RIAA, MPAA ect.
 
I don't believe any of this. There will be enough people playing PC games for the foreseeable future that there will always be a market. Even if it is only 10 million people, you can still make games attractive enough that people will buy them. This is too big of an economic niche just to ignore. Even if its something like Minecraft, if more big houses switch away from making PC games, then the money will just go to people who will make them. It might not be millions in profit per game, but someone will always fill the vacuum.
 
So there is a secondary market for used games. So what? Why should buying and selling used games be any different from paintings, sculpture, music CDs, DVDs, used cars, boats, houses, furniture, books, computers, etc.? Why are games so special?
 
mailpup said:
So there is a secondary market for used games. So what? Why should buying and selling used games be any different from paintings, sculpture, music CDs, DVDs, used cars, boats, houses, furniture, books, computers, etc.? Why are games so special?

because you agreed to terms of service
 
mailpup said:
So there is a secondary market for used games. So what? Why should buying and selling used games be any different from paintings, sculpture, music CDs, DVDs, used cars, boats, houses, furniture, books, computers, etc.? Why are games so special?

Well said.

As for piracy. It's not stealing, it's sharing. For example, if a user pirates a new game rather than buying it, they probably don't have the money to buy it in the first place. Besides, this way they get a test run of the game instead of dropping up to $60 on a hunk of junk.
 
@yRaz Well, not me personally as I don't own any console games but I understand what you are saying about the EULA. It just galls me the way game publishers feel the need to control/eliminate the secondary market (through the EULA or any other means).
 
mailpup said:
@yRaz Well, not me personally as I don't own any console games but I understand what you are saying about the EULA. It just galls me the way game publishers feel the need to control/eliminate the secondary market (through the EULA or any other means).

They're just trying to get paid for a product they made. The "secondary market" destroys every chance they have of making money from that item.
 
mailpup said:
@yRaz Well, not me personally as I don't own any console games but I understand what you are saying about the EULA. It just galls me the way game publishers feel the need to control/eliminate the secondary market (through the EULA or any other means).
Eulas have never been tested in court by any software company because they know they would get their asses handed to them by any semi competent lawyer
 
In other news, Ford Motor Corporation just announced they were declaring bankruptcy due to sales of second hand Ford vehicles.
 
I have a better solution, make the stupid games cheaper to begin with. What cost would you lose with a cheaper new product price vs the cost of having people buying and selling used games if it's such a big deal to these guys. They always just want more money.
 
captaincranky said:
In other news, Ford Motor Corporation just announced they were declaring bankruptcy due to sales of second hand Ford vehicles.

Exactly the example I was gonna use.
 
Pretty close call wizard, but I do agree to one important factor, courts in many countries don't give a damn to any 'fine print' conditions/terms (and EULA is sort of similar in this way); so there is every chance they will loose in the court of law. The major issue is, Govt. around the world instead of 'protecting' their citizens, are saviors of corporations and their interests, otherwise these entities won't be able to harass people like this; now, this is a pretty sad reflection of times we live in.
 
neofryboy said:
mailpup said:
@yRaz Well, not me personally as I don't own any console games but I understand what you are saying about the EULA. It just galls me the way game publishers feel the need to control/eliminate the secondary market (through the EULA or any other means).

They're just trying to get paid for a product they made. The "secondary market" destroys every chance they have of making money from that item.

If an Xbox game is being sold, traded, etc to a store like Gamestop, It already was paid for once (unless it was shoplifted, but that is another story). The developer was already paid for that individual game already. If you sell your house to person X and they turn around and sell that same house to person Y, are you entitled to some of that money? This is the same exact thing. Game devs.have the same sense of entitlement as people who pirate their games... they want something for nothing. Dev's excuses like "we just want paid for our work" is just as sad and lame as the pirate's excuses for piracy.
 
@yRaz Where is there a ToS or EULA saying you have to keep that copy? Sure it's in the manuals and such, but are stores like EB Games, Gamestop, etc going to stop refunding? Not anytime soon, and companies won't bother making deals with the stores either.

If you buy a new game, play it for a while and want to return it. Name how many stores accept "electronic goods" like games return, after they have been opened and played period. These "second hand" stores are there for this reason, and if the companies want to get up in arms about it then talk to the stores.

Don't just slap the customers with stupid limits, being we won't care and will find a way to sell the game. Unless say it came with some exclusive DLC or something, that was limited to one time use you've got little to stand on guys. If they added more reasons to games, or not made them so high priced it'd actually be worthwhile.

You expect people with wishes to buy a game, slap down $50-60 on a game to suddenly hate it and not get a refund? That would be like testing a car or truck for a short time, feel it's not for you and want to return it or trade-in? "Sorry we're not allowing that now, because the companies don't get a profit."

Many wonder why pirates are so common, things are not always worth the money for most consumers. You slap down a fair chunk of money on a game, then suddenly feel it's not worth it but you don't get a full refund anyways. Who's really ripped off in the end? Go get a game at Walmart or somewhere, play it for a while and take it to Gamestop or EB Games. See how much of a "refund" or "trade-in" you get for it.
 
Reselling games is our right as a consumer. Game developers have no right to prevent this. Im not buying something that can only be used once. I am buying software with a CD-KeY, and that key is property that I own and I have the right to sell that key to another person if he or she wishes to buy it.

If you want to boost your sales, make a good game and people will buy it new.
 
So if I buy a game and then decide it sucks and don't want it, tough luck for me?
 
Used games are good for the game makers for two reasons:

First of all they introduce games of these developers to people who otherwise might not have bought them due to price (since they can buy the used game cheaper). If these people like the game, they might then buy the sequel at full price when it's released.

Secondly the person who sells the game to the store gets money which most likely goes into buying other games. This allows the seller of the used game to buy more games than he'd otherwise buy.
 
The fact is, they're greedy bastards, and they just wanna make more money any way they can. Just listen to the whining. To them it's "losing money" for some reason. But it's not their money to begin with. I'm really, really sick of hearing about these companies crying like babies over losing things they never had. And comparing the resale of games to piracy... really? If they wanna make more money, then they should make better games!

I can easily envision a future where consoles work more like steam, in which case they will make a lot more money. I'm not at all saying I want this to happen, but this is probably where we're heading. They'd be even happier if we would pay per minute of game-time. Yeah. You'd have to sit there with your VISA plugged into the gamepad and cry yourself to sleep at night because you can't afford to play more. Oh glorious future, I can't wait.

I recently bought Darkspore on Steam. A new and expensive title. I hate it. I hate it. I can't stand it. It's bad. That was 49,99€ wasted. Now it's just another word in my games list. I wish I could give it away to a friend that might actually enjoy it, and thereby see some minor value in the investment, but I can't do that. At the very least, I'd like to break the disc, burn it and defile it. But I can't do that either. I can't even remove it from my games list. It's always there, staring me in the face, laughing at me. A constant reminder to never buy Darkspore ever again. As if I ever would.
 
Guest said:
It's always there, staring me in the face, laughing at me.

Epic Guest is epic. Don't worry you are not alone since almost all gamers buy a game that wasn't wort it.
Personally after buying Mass Effect (wich i dont liked not even a bit) i decided to get back to download games from the captains ship play them a week or two and is its good buy it at my next payment, if one day some greedy lawyers call me to court, i will be pleased to tell them "dont worry, i deleted it because it sux" and then use the Chewbacca defense.
 
Boo-hoo. Sorry. Once I buy a game it's mine. And lately I've been BUYING a lot of used games. I really don't want to slam $60-70 on a new game only to discover it sucks, or I finish it in 3 days. I'm not getting my money's worth. Some things are best bought used. Video games are one of them.
 
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