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school-shooting in germany

By chrissof
Nov 24, 2006
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  1. howard_hopkinso

    howard_hopkinso TS Rookie Posts: 25,948   +19

    I understand what you`re saying SNGX, but the fact remains that gun related incidents are far more prevalent in the US than it is in the UK. This has got to be due to the availability of firearms in the US as compared to the UK.

    Responsible gun ownership isn`t the problem, it`s the *****s who have access to guns that`s the problem.

    Unfortunately, it seems to me that firearms are all to easy to get hold of in the US, whereas it`s completely the opposite here in the UK. Hence the vast difference in gun related incidents.

    You can find some gun statistics HERE.

    It isn`t hard to see from the above, that the US has a far higher gun incident rate than anywhere else of the locations listed.

    This has got to be due to the availability of firearmes in the US. If there`s another explanation, then I`m afraid it escapes me.

    If guns are heavily controlled, then it follows that gun related incidents will be reduced.

    This is not intended to start an argument, quite the contrary. I`m just trying to point out that the amount of firearms available in a country is proportional to the amount of gun related incidents.

    Regards Howard :)
     
  2. smore9648

    smore9648 TS Rookie Posts: 757

    I wish the U.S. had the same gun restrictions as the U.K. the violence with guns is esculating and it out of control.

    I am glad I do not have kids because I would worry about something like that happening to my kid.
     
  3. TimeParadoX

    TimeParadoX TS Rookie Posts: 2,438

    I would agree with Smore9648, there is alot more deaths in the US with guns then in alot of other countries
     
  4. SNGX1275

    SNGX1275 TS Forces Special Posts: 12,690   +335

    You can't make that comparison, and you sure as hell can't use real numbers when the populations are so different, you have to use percents.

    This page has some information and links to their sources quite well. Here is an excerpt:
    No need to get in an argument about this. My point still stands with the original topic, that the school shootings are a result of poor parenting and a failure of the kid's teachers and peers to pick up on the trouble brewing inside the kid.
     
  5. TimeParadoX

    TimeParadoX TS Rookie Posts: 2,438

    Yes I have to agree with you SNGX, It's the parent's fault for not teaching the kid how to keep from killing people / themselfs

    If I had a kid I would have guns ( to protect myself ) i'll teach them how to use them but teach them to control themselfs and not go crazy
     
  6. howard_hopkinso

    howard_hopkinso TS Rookie Posts: 25,948   +19

    Point taken SNGX.

    So, why is there such a lot of gun related incidents in the US? If it`s not down to the amount of firearms and their controls, what is it down to? Surely it can`t all be due to bad parenting.

    There has to be some explanation, though I can`t think of one, well, none that make any sense.

    Regards Howard :)
     
  7. halo71

    halo71 TS Rookie Posts: 1,289

    I totally agree with everything SNGX said. I grew up around many guns. I was given a .30-06 for Christmas when I was 16. Today I have rifles, shot-guns, psitols.......and I play video games, and played Dungeons & Dragons as a kid. I never had the urger to go out and kill someone. Or take a gun to school or work. People that do this are already unstable. Although I do see where these things can influence these unstable people to do these things as well.
    But then again whose to say that an unstable person doesnt get in there car a mow people down, which has happened. Should we put restrictions on cars too??

    But tightening up guns laws or outlawing them is not the answer either. If it were then the outlaws would be the only ones with guns!
     
  8. TimeParadoX

    TimeParadoX TS Rookie Posts: 2,438

    Well I would agree with Halo71 / Howard, I think it's the parent's fault for not teaching the kids

    Also I have alot of guns like Halo71 and I play ALOT of videogames with violence ( only cool games have violence ;) ) and you dont see me on the news with a M16 killing 100s of people like in Grand theft auto
     
  9. zephead

    zephead TechSpot Paladin Posts: 2,483

    agreed. i think we need a system that doesn't depend the parents being proactive, because that strategy is currently in place and is not working so well. ever since the 1998 shooting at columbine, colorado, more schools have been working with law enforcement and psychologists to help spot trouble before violence occurs. still, they have a long way to go.
    yes, part of the problem is the gun laws in certain parts of the country. chicago, for instance, makes it illegal to carry a loaded weapon in public. the law-abiding citizens comply with the law, but the criminals don't. so criminals take advantage of the situation, and often correctly assume that their victim is not armed. even on the rare occasion that a would-be victim is armed and ends up repelling their attacker, they themselves usually face criminal charges for having and using a weapon.
     
  10. chrissof

    chrissof TS Member Topic Starter Posts: 73

    well halo71,I come from germany and this is a country where usually outlaws have guns - but also does the police,and I like to rely on them in order to keeping germany a save place to be.
     
  11. halo71

    halo71 TS Rookie Posts: 1,289

    Well yeah....you are right. But what is the ratio of criminals to police? There are far more criminals running around with guns than there are police! My point is, I have guns in my house. And IF it ever comes down to someone breaking in my house and its me or them......the coroner better bring a body bag when he comes! Dont get me wrong, I am not a gun carrying redneck from the south. But I wont hesitate to protect myself or my daughter either!

    What part of Germany? My great grandfather was born in Stuttgart.
     
     
  12. chrissof

    chrissof TS Member Topic Starter Posts: 73

    Hi halo71.
    Of course I would defend myself and my family against an attack.Everybody has the right to do so.but imagine a robbery in your house.the guy(it`s always guys)
    is probably headed for your money;pc,stereo....and not necessarily a threat to anyone`s life - you see that guy,point a gun at him(if he has one he`s probably not holding it in his hands as he needs them to steal your hard earned stuff)
    the point I`m trying to get to is : Your gun could be the one to start making a situation escalate,and have coroners bringing bodybags(and I think in the US many people have big caliber guns,endangering your entire family when shooting inside a house)
    and even worse case scenario : your next child is a son(I have two 5/6)
    groing up to be a teenager,getting some sort of teenage trouble.you don`t really realize what goes on in your boys head,and one day he takes the gun daddy has in his safe.
    O.K.I´m sorry halo71,that is a drastic scene,don`t get me wrong
    but my original post was to try and find out how to be able to understand,and of course avoid, tragedies like the one`s mentioned all over this threat

    and I come from the Cologne/Bonn-area,but I must admit that if I were american,I´d probably have a gun as well...
     
  13. halo71

    halo71 TS Rookie Posts: 1,289

    That's funny! I think maybe you have gotten the wrong impression of America.
    Thats like me saying that if I were German, I would sit in the beer garden all day!

    While you make some interesting points....it does not matter if someone breaks in my house and is or is not threatening my life. At that point they have entered my personal/private space. And its not gonna be pretty for them, guy or gal!

    That said, it still boils down to the parents. How they bring their kid up. Like i said, I have been around guns all my life. But I was raised to respect them and to respect life.
     
  14. chrissof

    chrissof TS Member Topic Starter Posts: 73

    hi halo71.
    That what they invented hotspots for ...drinking beer in the hot sun... ;-)
    Americans ALL waist their time at shooting ranges...or was it:shoot at strangers?
    no, come on...
    and you wouldn`t shoot a girl; would you?
    I got to meet some very nice Americans,in fact all of them were.
    Only ones I don`t like...well,I only see them on tv

    Let me ask you a question
    What did your parents do right to raise you up to a "good man" and father?
    (whether there was/not guns at the house doesn`t really matter, as it seems to be easier and easier getting guns in any place of the world...)
    What goes wrong to make a child turn maniac on society?Why didn`t you,why didn`t I?
    Is there a "concept" in raising up your daughter?Does it even matter?you have a daughter,is she endangered at all?
    (I know of the fears that parents have,don`t get me wrong...)
    but has there ever been a girl,shooting up a school?
    plenty of questions...uups
     
  15. Bruff

    Bruff TS Rookie Posts: 41

    I was going to bring up the same point that Chrissof did. Certainly parental involvement is an important factor in many cases and it's possible that sometimes that could be the difference between snapping and not snapping. However I would bet that if you looked at everyone who goes on a shooting spree (or kills themselves from listening to rock and roll or playing Everquest or any other excuse) that you would find that they didn't all have ogres for parents.

    So, as Chrissof said, what's the defining factor? What makes some snap and others not. There are plenty of kids out there in horrible family situations and some ofthem become sports stars, succesfull business people or anything on the other end of the spectrum. I wish I had a clue but I think it's a mystery.
     
  16. cfitzarl

    cfitzarl TechSpot Chancellor Posts: 2,520   +9

    Where I live in the U.S (Northeastern-Seaboard) there are pretty strict laws in place for gun control. One of the states that has barely any would be Texas and more of the mid-Western states near there, where there are more rural areas. Not many people go around killing people here; we are a safe country, it's just all people hear about are the bad news stories typically found in nightly, national news (for the U.S. NBC, CBS, etc. Would Britain be BBC?).
     
  17. TimeParadoX

    TimeParadoX TS Rookie Posts: 2,438

    Yes im from texas and everyone has guns... You'll see babies with M16s shooting M203s at little bugs then a 4 year old with a Dune buggy with a M60 ontop of the car driving around... ( Off topic? :haha: )
     
  18. halo71

    halo71 TS Rookie Posts: 1,289

    lol....I think I will shut my mouth now!
     
  19. SNGX1275

    SNGX1275 TS Forces Special Posts: 12,690   +335

    Apparently the more often you post in here the more likely you are to get credit for a thought someone else had.

    Anyway, Bruff you are probably right not all had horrible parents, that is why it is a combined effort/responsibility of the kids parents, teachers, bus drivers, peers, ect. When you are in an institutionalized setting like a school there are people you see and have to interact with at some level even if its just walking into the same room. 1 person can't be held responsible for allowing these things to happen, its a community as a whole that should be.

    I also think that even with all that there will be some that slip through the cracks, its already such a statistically low number of kids that do this that there is no reasonable amount of protection that can put a stop to it completely.
     
  20. zephead

    zephead TechSpot Paladin Posts: 2,483

    if you think gun laws are messed up where you live you should visit chicago. on average, we have 2 people murdered every day within city limits (invariably the weapon is a gun). carrying a handgun is illegal in chicago, and in some neighborhoods, having anything that looks like a gun can get you shot by the chicago police. every once in a while, someone with a cell phone or sometines nothing at all in thier hands is shot by the police because they suspected he had a gun.

    mayor daley set up that system because he didn't want to fight the state legislature over illinois gun laws, so he makes sure that any cop who shoots on suspicion that a gun is involved goes not get reprimanded. this system was designed to scare people from carrying guns, but more innocent people are hurt/killed than criminals.

    i agree with SNGX1275's that the problem will be extremely difficult, if not possible, to eliminate entirely. some people just aren't right in their heads and usually no one knows until it's too late.
     
  21. smore9648

    smore9648 TS Rookie Posts: 757

    Cabreney Green is a fine example
     
  22. halo71

    halo71 TS Rookie Posts: 1,289

    You are correct I think, too many innocent people are killed by guns. Wether its by criminals or by police. MY point is that there are still people like me that are not crazy that have guns only to protect themselves or to hunt with. And SOME people maybe watch TV to much and think that ALL Americans are gun carrying *****s. My point was that ALL places in America are not like the wild west was 150 years ago. And that outlawing guns is not the answer. I think part of the answer is the judges are slapping the people that murder on the hand and letting them out of jail in 2 years. And not having stiffer sentences. I am all for capital punishment! Wasnt it Ron White that said Texas was putting in a express line for capital punishment? lol.....I wish Georgia would do that! Hell for that matter....lets put in some "self check-outs".......
     
  23. SNGX1275

    SNGX1275 TS Forces Special Posts: 12,690   +335

    You forgot recreation :) Shooting clays is a lot of fun provided you can hit them.
     
  24. zephead

    zephead TechSpot Paladin Posts: 2,483

    i think you are referring to cabrini green. i believe that what happened to chicago's public housing projects happened because of classism and the budget tactics of former mayor richard j daley and his political circles (poorest neighborhoods got the least, rich ones got the most). of course, the aforementioned gun control tactics are making a bad situation worse.
    in my opinion, it takes way too long and costs too much, but that's an entirely different discussion...

    i think part of the problem is that the system here is reactive, not proactive. perhaps someday someone will try targeting the problem at its source in addition to working on ways to better catch people after they've already done something.
     
  25. halo71

    halo71 TS Rookie Posts: 1,289

    lol....didn't include that! Never was very good a hitting them!
     


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