TechSpot - PC Technology News and Analysis

ComtriS · #21 07-29-2006

I'm trying to figure out which of these two video cards I want to buy:

PowerColor ATI Radeon 9250 256MB
OR
NVIDIA GeForce 6200 128MB

Here are my system specs:
Dimension 3000
Processor - Pentium 4 3.0 GHz
Processor Speed - 2.92 GHz
RAM - 1 GB
OS - Windows XP Home
OS version - 5.1.2600
Int. Graphics - Intel 82865G
Slots - 3 PCI slots, 0 AGP slots, 0 PCIe slots

Any advice? (my main focus is in trying to get Oblivion running on my comp)

EDIT: Okay, after researching some more, it seems that the GeForce 6200 is better. Can anybody confirm this?

wolfram · #22 07-29-2006

The 6200 is better than any comparable PCI ATI card.
The bad thing is that Newegg doesn't have it right now

ComtriS · #23 07-29-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfram

The 6200 is better than any comparable PCI ATI card.
The bad thing is that Newegg doesn't have it right now

Ok, thanks.

After thinking (and researching) about it some more, I think I may want to just go out and get a new motherboard to completely solve this problem. Any suggestions? I am on a budget, but I don't want to get something I'm going to be unsatisfied with.

How do I know which one of these will work with my system?
http://www.dealtime.com/xPP-motherbo...ci_express_x16

vnf4ultra · #24 07-29-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by ComtriS

Ok, thanks.

After thinking (and researching) about it some more, I think I may want to just go out and get a new motherboard to completely solve this problem. Any suggestions? I am on a budget, but I don't want to get something I'm going to be unsatisfied with.

How do I know which one of these will work with my system?
http://www.dealtime.com/xPP-motherbo...ci_express_x16

Are you reusing your cpu? If so, you need to know what socket type your cpu is (478).

You need a matx board with socket 478 if you want to keep your cpu, and you most likely will get an agp port on a 478 board with a graphics slot. Pci-e matx 478 mobos are hard to find. Agp is fast enough, but there are fewer card choices available.

ComtriS · #25 07-29-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by vnf4ultra

Are you reusing your cpu? If so, you need to know what socket type your cpu is (478).

You need a matx board with socket 478 if you want to keep your cpu, and you most likely will get an agp port on a 478 board with a graphics slot. Pci-e matx 478 mobos are hard to find. Agp is fast enough, but there are fewer card choices available.

I wanted to reuse my CPU, but that seems almost hopeless, because like you said it's almost impossible to find the right board.

And... it seems like if I even want to get the graphics card I want, I'll have to spend upwards of $200+ to get it (~$100 775 P4 processor, ~$50 PCI-E mATX 775 board, $50+ graphics card). Is there any other way around this besides the 6200 route?

swker98 · #26 07-29-2006

this should be a sticky

vnf4ultra · #27 07-30-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by ComtriS

I wanted to reuse my CPU, but that seems almost hopeless, because like you said it's almost impossible to find the right board.

And... it seems like if I even want to get the graphics card I want, I'll have to spend upwards of $200+ to get it (~$100 775 P4 processor, ~$50 PCI-E mATX 775 board, $50+ graphics card). Is there any other way around this besides the 6200 route?

You could get a micro atx socket 478 AGP motherboard. Agp is much better than pci.
And if you don't replace your processsor, then you have a larger budget for a good graphics card.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...ice=&maxPrice=
This is probably the best one.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813131460

decgal · #28 08-04-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by vnf4ultra

It seems there have been many people here who have bought cheap computers, only to find that the computer contains only pci slots, with no way to add a traditional agp or pci-express x16 video card. Many of these people only find out they can't upgrade after buying the computer and trying unsuccessfully to install "the newest game," having it not run at all, or very slowly with the integrated graphic chip. Then these said people try to find out how they can get "the newest game" to run on their computers, and so they hit the forums, like techspot, for advise and help. Many people will suggest the latest $100-$200 video card for agp or pci-e, without thinking that the person could possibly not have an agp or pci-e slot. Then, some brave soul breaks the bad news that the system in question only has pci slots. Some people then lose all hope and say that no pci card would be any better than the integrated chip in their pc. Today I will be testing the best pci graphics card (currently) available, the nvidia 6200, to see if it really is as slow as integrated graphics, or if it does give pci only systems new life. I hope this article will help people with pci only systems decide what they should do.

The reason I care about the subject, is that I too was in a situation several years ago where my pc only had pci slots and I wanted to play "the latest game" which I had purchased. My system was a dell dimension 2300, but the 2350, 2400, 3000, and B110, are similar as well.

I ran these tests on my dell dimension 2300. It has 256mb pc133 ram, a pentium 4 1.8A ghz 400fsb cpu, intel integrated graphics, intel 845gl chipset, etc.

I ran aquamark3, an older benchmark on the 2300 with it's integrated graphics and got a score of 180 for graphics, 2714 for the processor, and a final score of 1752.

I then installed a pci nvidia 6200 128mb card and ran the same benchmark. The results are a score of 2130 for graphics, 1993 for the processor, and a final score of 13,885.

[CENTER]

[/CENTER]

So this shows that in my case, the 6200 is approximately 7.9X faster than the integrated graphics that came with my dell. That's significant in my opinion. Keep in mind that I had no other pci cards installed to "compete" with the video card. If you have a pci sound card, or other pci cards installed, it may seriously degrade performance.

I then tried the same card in my one other system, with an athlon 64 processor @ 2.25ghz, 256mb ddr400 single channel ram, nforce 4 chipset, etc.

I got an aquamark3 score of about 15,000+ on this system.
I then ran 3dmark05 and got a score of about 620.
I then proceeded to play several games with the 6200 to see if it yielded "playable" framerates. I tried command and conquer: generals, america's army, and far cry. All were playable with the 6200. C&C:G ran very well, and so did america's army. Farcry also ran reasonably well at 800x600 on medium setttings(more ram would help, I used only 256mb).

So, my concluson? My conclusion would be that if you have no agp or pci-e slots, and can be satisfied running their games at a low resolution(800x600), and with low or medium settings on more demanding games, then getting a pci 6200 would be the best option for you.

Some more information on the pci 6200.
Made by 3DFuzion
Part: 3DFR6200P
350mhz core clock
4 pixel pipes
64bit memory interface
128mb ddr memory @ 400mhz
Pci interface

Some of you may question whether a card with a 64bit memory interface can compete with cards with a 128bit memory interface, like some nvidia fx5500, or fx5200 cards. I at first questioned this, since it seems like "everywhere" online people claim that all 64bit cards are total trash, and that the worst 128bit card would beat the best 64bit card. I then found an interesting benchmark comparing 64bit 6200 cards to cards like the 5200, 5500, and 9550, in which the 6200 came out on top. Note the cards in question are agp, so pci performance is less, but the percent differences between cards should be similar when comparing pci cards.
Here's the link.
http://www.digital-daily.com/video/n...up/index02.htm

Some pictures.

[CENTER]

[/CENTER]

Now, if you don't want to settle for lower resolution and lower quality, then you have basically two options, upgrade your current system's motherboard to one that supports add in graphics cards(and buy a video card), or buy/build a new computer.

I've upgraded my dell 2300's motherboard to a gigabyte 8IG1000MK motherboard to get an agp slot to add a video card. This way, I can add in whatever graphics card I want in the agp format, and get decent gaming results. Things to keep in mind when upgrading are to get the correct form factor for the motherboard(most all pci only systems are micro atx, or else a proprietary board design), the cpu socket type, the graphics upgrade slot(agp or pci-e x16), and the memory type. It is advisable to get a new copy of your os(xp) and do a reinstall after the motherboard replacement, so be sure to back up your data before the motherboard replacement.

If you do decide on a new system, just be sure you get one that has a good cpu, and has a graphics upgrade slot.

If you are in this situation and are still unsure or need help, feel free to post and/or PM me. I'm glad to help.

-vnf4ultra-

hi i have a dell dimensions 2400 and would like to do the same as you .
did the new motherboard fit and plugs are the same ,did you need to buy any thing else other than graphics card. i also heard that a board from a dimensions 4600 is a good fit has an 8x agp socket . what has yours.
thanks dec.

vnf4ultra · #29 08-04-2006

Quote:

hi i have a dell dimensions 2400 and would like to do the same as you , did the new motherboard fit and plugs are the same ,did you need to buy any thing else other than graphics card. i also heard that a board from a dimensions 4600 is a good fit has an 8x agp socket . what has yours.
thanks dec.

Yes, the new micro atx motherboard fit perfectly in the dell (2300) case. Notice it's a micro atx (matx), not a full ATX board. The normal plugs, like the power connections, hard drive, and cd/dvd drive connections were the same, but the power switch/power led/hard drive led pins were different on the new motherboard. I just used the motherboard manual to find which were the correct pins on the motherboard, and then figured out which two wires in the dell case went to the power button and put those on the boards power switch pins. I then did the same with the hd led and power led, tracing the wires and putting them on the correct pins. Here's how I could tell which wire on the led's was the + and which was the -.
http://img432.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fpguide8cy.jpg
Once you know which led pin is + , then trace it to the end of the wire and then connect that wire to the led+ pin of the appropriate led on the motherboard. Do the same for the - wire on each led.
I believe the 2400 uses a different hard drive led/power led/power switch connector than the 2300 though, so without any more info(pics of connector, and which board you're using), I can't say much more on how to get it to work

Also my dell had 4 additional motherboard standoffs in addition to the standard micro atx standoffs. These surrounded the cpu(processor), and were used to hold the cpu heatsink mount/shroud onto the board. These needed to be removed before installing the new board(or they'd short out the new motherboard).

The front usb and headphone jack probably won't work with the new motherboard(so buy a usb hub

).
I eventually got my usb to work with some modding, but it's more trouble than it's worth in my opinion. Still can't get the headphone to work though, but many speaker sets have a built in headphone jack on one of the speakers.

If you put a nice graphics card in, it might overload the stock power supply, since the dell system wasn't designed to support a graphics card. I usually recommend a cheap 400-450w fsp group, xclio, or enermax power supply if needed.

Yes I've heard a mb from a dell 4600 works, and maybe one from a 4700 as well, but I'm not sure.

I used this.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813128222
I think it's a decent board.

I put in a leadtek agp 6200 card, that I unlocked into a nvidia 6600 and overclocked a bit, but I did this a while ago. I'd recommend a x1600pro agp, 7600gs agp, or 7800gs agp now though.

Note that swapping motherboards may mean that you might have to buy a new copy of xp (~$85USD), or not be able to access info on your current hard drive, so please back up all important pics, music, docs, emails, bookmarks, etc before you do any upgrades.

F1N3ST · #30 08-06-2006

Anyone buying 1 of these or any other PCI card mainly, should force pixel shader 1.4, using RivaTuner, huge FPS boost, not much quality differance that i can tell, its under D3D settings.

jedimaster1089 · #31 08-19-2006

I have the PCI onlyslot problem too and i was wondering if anyone knew which of the PCI graphics cards can acctually run BF2 even on low graphics. Does the on that vnf4ultra work?

vnf4ultra · #32 08-19-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by jedimaster1089

I have the PCI onlyslot problem too and i was wondering if anyone knew which of the PCI graphics cards can acctually run BF2 even on low graphics. Does the on that vnf4ultra work?

Quote:

UPDATE: Reader feedback indicates that at least the PCI 6200 works with the game. We also have reports that the game is working well with certain 64MB cards. Again, we recommend trying the demo if you have concerns--keep in mind that the list above is just based on officially released information, not our own internal testing.

From:
http://pc.ign.com/articles/625/625776p1.html

Conclusion: it should work with the pci 6200, but I doubt any other pci card will give playable results.

jedimaster1089 · #33 08-19-2006

Ok thank you.
one other reader review that i read on newegg said that th fx 5500 could run it also so I think that I will most likely be buying this card.

vnf4ultra · #34 08-20-2006

Yeah, a 5500 might run it, but only on absolute lowest settings and even then I doubt it will be running fast enough to be "playable."

F1N3ST · #35 08-20-2006

My BF2 runs on Lowest on my 5500FX overclocked to 450mhz RAM, and 316mhz Core, at about 30-40fps.

vnf4ultra · #36 08-20-2006

Hmm, care to give some more details about the fx5500 running bf2? Like what screen res and are you forcing direct x 7/8 mode? Using a lower pixel shader version? Any actual benchmarks, like using fraps instead of "about 30-40fps?"

Just wondering how bad bf2 would have too look to play on a fx5500...

MetalX · #37 08-20-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by F1N3ST

My BF2 runs on Lowest on my 5500FX overclocked to 450mhz RAM, and 316mhz Core, at about 30-40fps.

Is that Battlefront 2 or Battlefield 2?

howard_hopkinso · #38 08-20-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by swker98

this should be a sticky

I agree, sticky it is.

Regards Howard

bigredmachine · #39 08-20-2006

So what is the best pci card for around 50 bucks and how do I know the amount of power it needs?

vnf4ultra · #40 08-20-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by MetalX

Is that Battlefront 2 or Battlefield 2?

I was assuming battlefield 2, but good point, could be either...

Quote:

So what is the best pci card for around 50 bucks and how do I know the amount of power it needs?

Too bad newegg stopped carrying the pci 6200, it was only $30, and is one of the best pci cards.
http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache...ient=firefox-a
Now, I guess for $50 you might find a fx5200 or fx5500, look for one with 128bit memory interface. The cards box should indicate the recommended power supply, usually 250w or 300w in this card class, but I think most of these would run on a basic(single hard drive, single optical, lower end processor) system with only a 200w power supply.

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So you only have PCI slots and want to game?