Elon Musk 'Ukraine peace plan' Twitter poll brings angry response from country's president

Geralt

Posts: 1,300   +2,080
More hard-right leaning BS from the Cato institute?

You say let's "get out" of Ukraine seems to be the position that the hard-right takes in this dilemma. It was very similar to the position many Americans had about WW II, and look where that got them.

OK, How about a thought experiment? Since Russia did not come and invade Mexico and we don't know what would have happened, lets try another theoretical?

Suppose the world let Russia get away with invading Ukraine? Just what would be Putin's next target since he would almost certainly think something along the lines of "I'm not meeting any opposition. What else can I get to Make Russia Great Again?"

Seems to me there were some Russian grumblings, before they started getting the crap beat out of them, along the lines of "Watch out, we may decide to take Alaska back" I'm sure you heard them if you actually have anything to do with Alaska. Now that Russia is getting the crap beat out of them, have you heard any more such grumblings?

Or would you like having truly communist rulers having control of Alaska?

Putin is a clown living in the past pining for the "Good old days of the Republic" though those times are long gone.

I'll give you that there may be corruption in the Ukraine, but that should be left to the Ukrainians to resolve - not some autocratic communist A-hole brutal bully outsider who is living in the past, and sending his own citizens to be massacred.
I have lived near Putin for years and still don't know him. Anyway, you seem to know him very well. Use your time and energy in commenting on things you know and stop wasting your time and ours showing only that you are a son of western propaganda. Thanks.
 

AlaskaGuy

Posts: 684   +558
More hard-right leaning BS from the Cato institute?

You say let's "get out" of Ukraine seems to be the position that the hard-right takes in this dilemma. It was very similar to the position many Americans had about WW II, and look where that got them.

OK, How about a thought experiment? Since Russia did not come and invade Mexico and we don't know what would have happened, lets try another theoretical?

Suppose the world let Russia get away with invading Ukraine? Just what would be Putin's next target since he would almost certainly think something along the lines of "I'm not meeting any opposition. What else can I get to Make Russia Great Again?"

Seems to me there were some Russian grumblings, before they started getting the crap beat out of them, along the lines of "Watch out, we may decide to take Alaska back" I'm sure you heard them if you actually have anything to do with Alaska. Now that Russia is getting the crap beat out of them, have you heard any more such grumblings?

Or would you like having truly communist rulers having control of Alaska?

Putin is a clown living in the past pining for the "Good old days of the Republic" though those times are long gone.

I'll give you that there may be corruption in the Ukraine, but that should be left to the Ukrainians to resolve - not some autocratic communist A-hole brutal bully outsider who is living in the past, and sending his own citizens to be massacred.
Overthrow a democratically elected govt in a Rus nation bordering Russia using $5 billion in US taxpayer funds, build NATO bases inside said country and chances are you're asking for an invasion.
 

AlaskaGuy

Posts: 684   +558
BS on that article. Showing support for pro-western parties is normal.

The Maidan demonstrations were not a result of US meddling, it was Yanukovych's own doing. People were starving and businesses were all failing, with the exception of those linked to Russia. (how convenient)

From your article:
"As the Ukrainian economy languished and fell farther and farther behind those of Poland and other East European neighbors that had implemented significant market‐oriented reforms, public anger at Yanukovych mounted. When he rejected the European Union’s terms for an association agreement in late 2013, in favor of a Russian offer, angry demonstrators filled Kiev’s Independence Square, known as the Maidan, as well as sites in other cities."

That's the reason why demonstrations happened. Why not call out Russia's involvement in all of this? Do you think Yanukovych broke his pro-western promises after he was elected by himself? That he suddenly just had a change of heart and thought Putin would offer a better future for Ukraine? No, it was clear that he became Putin's dog and was destroying Ukraine from within, all for the benefit of himself and his "party members".

I've been part of many demonstration in my own country (Romania) to remove presidents and corrupt prime ministers. And many of them succeeded. Being elected means absolutely nothing if they do stupid/corrupt things. If 200.000 people didn't go out in the streets of Bucharest then the party in power would have changed justice laws to allow corrupt officials to avoid jail time. I got gassed to stop that.
Democracy is whatever the West calls it eh? Remember the Orange Revolution that was sponsored by George Soros and the US govt? I remember. :)
 

AlaskaGuy

Posts: 684   +558
Nice thought. In reality an industrial powerhouse like the US will always be dragged into these conflicts, because it makes strategic sense for belligerents to make damned sure that it becomes involved. That's one of the reasons why Pearl Harbour was such a bitter experience.
Nobody 'dragged the US into the Ukraine conflict'. The US forced the issue.
 

captaincranky

Posts: 19,129   +8,247
To all the people who thinks, that people living in Donbas should decide either they want this region belong to Russia or Ukraine, think this: what if some citizens of Chicago say, they are not happy being in US and the want the whole state of Illinois to join the Canada? What would you say? Ok, let them decide or rather you are free to move to Canada?
That's about the most monumentally asinine piece of "whataboutism" bullshit, I think I've ever read at Techspot.

Did you ever see the movie, "Escape from New York"? NYC was walled off.

Now, since Chicago is a notoriously uber violent sh!thole, I think a better solution would be to wall if off, wait for the death toll to plateau, then beg the national guard to come in to restore order.

After which, the survivors would, of course, would be free to live where they choose. I, also of course, have some suggestions. Bangladesh, Ethiopia, ad naseum. You know, all the places from which people are running away from to come to the USA.

But, IMO, Texas seceding from the union is one of the better ideas I heard recently.
 

Puiu

Posts: 5,874   +4,884
TechSpot Elite
Democracy is whatever the West calls it eh? Remember the Orange Revolution that was sponsored by George Soros and the US govt? I remember. :)
Democracy does not forbid demonstrations against a democratically elected president or official. And this happens much more often than you think in Europe. Whenever there's something we don't like you'll see people in the streets. Prime-minister's are a dime a dozen. :)
 
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Puiu

Posts: 5,874   +4,884
TechSpot Elite
Again with the BS. Seriously, do you have nothing better to do than push things on this website that people know better than you?

The Ukrainian prosecutor was refusing to investigate which is why he was ousted. It was european leaders that pushed for that, not Biden. It is the exact opposite of what ppl like you believe.

You know full well that Trump blackmailed a president that was at war with Russia. And it was, just like with the russians before, about the US elections. It pretty much ruined the confidence in the US and it allowed Russia to push harder resulting in the current situation. It's why the extremist right started making waves during that time in europe.
 
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AlaskaGuy

Posts: 684   +558
Again with the BS. Seriously, do you have nothing better to do than push things on this website that people know better than you?

The Ukrainian prosecutor was refusing to investigate which is why he was ousted. It was european leaders that pushed for that, not Biden. It is the exact opposite of what ppl like you believe.

You know full well that Trump blackmailed a president that was at war with Russia. And it was, just like with the russians before, about the US elections. It pretty much ruined the confidence in the US and it allowed Russia to push harder resulting in the current situation. It's why the extremist right started making waves during that time in europe.
That prosecutor was investigating Burisma. You do know who Burisma is yes?

 

Puiu

Posts: 5,874   +4,884
TechSpot Elite
That prosecutor was investigating Burisma. You do know who Burisma is yes?

That prosecutor was assigned to investigate Burisma, but he wasn't doing his job. Big difference.

"In July 2015, shortly after his appointment, reformist minority member Yehor Soboliev advanced a motion to dismiss Shokin for corruption, gaining 127 of the required 150 signatures including several members of the ruling parties.[57] Representatives of the EU and the United States pressed Poroshenko for his removal,[3] as did the World Bank and International Monetary Fund.[4]

In March 2016 the Ukrainian Parliament voted overwhelmingly to remove Shokin, a decision which was welcomed by the EU."

"In May 2019, Vitaly Kasko, who had been Shokin's deputy overseeing international cooperation before resigning in February 2016, provided documents to Bloomberg News claiming that under Shokin, the investigation into Burisma had been dormant."

"The investigation into Burisma only pertained to events happening before[54] Joe Biden's son, Hunter Biden, joined the board of directors of Burisma Holdings in 2014."

Let's not forget that Shokin was the one that blocked the investigation into the 2014 Maidan shootings against demonstrators.

Now, can we drop this topic? It's pretty clear that it's just an excuse to change the direction of the discussion from the important topics. If you want to continue giving excuses for Hitl... Putin, then that's something I don't want to see here anymore.
 
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AlaskaGuy

Posts: 684   +558
That prosecutor was assigned to investigate Burisma, but he wasn't doing his job. Big difference.

"In July 2015, shortly after his appointment, reformist minority member Yehor Soboliev advanced a motion to dismiss Shokin for corruption, gaining 127 of the required 150 signatures including several members of the ruling parties.[57] Representatives of the EU and the United States pressed Poroshenko for his removal,[3] as did the World Bank and International Monetary Fund.[4]

In March 2016 the Ukrainian Parliament voted overwhelmingly to remove Shokin, a decision which was welcomed by the EU."

"In May 2019, Vitaly Kasko, who had been Shokin's deputy overseeing international cooperation before resigning in February 2016, provided documents to Bloomberg News claiming that under Shokin, the investigation into Burisma had been dormant."

"The investigation into Burisma only pertained to events happening before[54] Joe Biden's son, Hunter Biden, joined the board of directors of Burisma Holdings in 2014."

Let's not forget that Shokin was the one that blocked the investigation into the 2014 Maidan shootings against demonstrators.

Now, can we drop this topic? It's pretty clear that it's just an excuse to change the direction of the discussion from the important topics. If you want to continue giving excuses for Hitl... Putin, then that's something I don't want to see here anymore.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yehor_Soboliev#Political_career <--- he was on the payroll and of course the EU wanted Sholkin gone because if there's anyone as corrupt as the current US administration it's the filth in Brussels.

*Now we can drop it.
 

Puiu

Posts: 5,874   +4,884
TechSpot Elite
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yehor_Soboliev#Political_career <--- he was on the payroll and of course the EU wanted Sholkin gone because if there's anyone as corrupt as the current US administration it's the filth in Brussels.

*Now we can drop it.
please stop, you are just embarrassing yourself with such statements. you are literally accusing someone that had an active roll in the Maidan of being on a payroll after he came out against Shokin which was refusing to investigate the shootings in the Maidan.

kinda hard to not see hole in your argument. he's literally the guy that pushed for the adoption of laws for "total openness of officials assets declarations, all property rights in Ukraine".

 
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AlaskaGuy

Posts: 684   +558
please stop, you are just embarrassing yourself with such statements. you are literally accusing someone that had an active roll in the Maidan of being on a payroll after he came out against Shokin which was refusing to investigate the shootings in the Maidan.

kinda hard to not see hole in your argument. he's literally the guy that pushed for the adoption of laws for "total openness of officials assets declarations, all property rights in Ukraine".

And who bankrolled the Maidan? The US taxpayers is who to the tune of $5 billion dollars. I know how this works. I was an admirer of Charter '97 until I found out what they were really about. Look into the Colored Revolutions and don't just read the western version of them.
 

Puiu

Posts: 5,874   +4,884
TechSpot Elite
And who bankrolled the Maidan? The US taxpayers is who to the tune of $5 billion dollars. I know how this works. I was an admirer of Charter '97 until I found out what they were really about. Look into the Colored Revolutions and don't just read the western version of them.
No the US didn't spend 5 billion on the Maidan, that's 100% fake. It's just something RT reported as "news". And therein lies the problem, you believe everything that you hear instead of doing at least a bit of research.

5 billion is an rough estimate for the money the US invested in Ukraine since the collapse of the USSR. It had nothing to do with the Maidan.

Actually wait... it actually did help the Maidan because the investment from the US improved the democracy in Ukraine. Go figure. (and in case you didn't get it, it's a joke)


Stop pushing Putin's propaganda here.
 

AlaskaGuy

Posts: 684   +558
No the US didn't spend 5 billion on the Maidan, that's 100% fake. It's just something RT reported as "news". And therein lies the problem, you believe everything that you hear instead of doing at least a bit of research.

5 billion is an rough estimate for the money the US invested in Ukraine since the collapse of the USSR. It had nothing to do with the Maidan.

Actually wait... it actually did help the Maidan because the investment from the US improved the democracy in Ukraine. Go figure. (and in case you didn't get it, it's a joke)


Stop pushing Putin's propaganda here.
Politifact is a known joke in this country (USA).


 

wiyosaya

Posts: 8,241   +7,585
I have lived near Putin for years and still don't know him. Anyway, you seem to know him very well. Use your time and energy in commenting on things you know and stop wasting your time and ours showing only that you are a son of western propaganda. Thanks.
Hey, I get it. But, no one stopped Putin in from invading Crimea in 2014, and look what is happening now.

In the US, no one gave a crap when Hitler was exercising his muscle, and look what happened then.

You seem like a smart person. And I am sure that you have heard of Einstein's "The definition of insanity is doing the same things over and over again and expecting different results."

You live in Russia and, perhaps, you have a closer view of things that may give you the advantage in knowledge.

However, the pattern is repeating itself here, yet again. No one has stood up to the bully and the bully thinks that means that he can have the entire playground no questions asked. Maybe you like living in Russia, but I, as a US Citizen, have no desire to live under a despot who has created an autocratic society where no one, literally no one, can openly say anything against him, nor do I want to live in a world where the elections are outright "rigged" in favor of the only candidate on the ballot - Putin.

Maybe, for you, living in figurative chains is a great way to live, however, for me, I have enough figurative chains already, and do not need anymore that will only satisfy the narcissistic whims of a human pile of excrement - namely, Putin. No one in the Ukraine asked him to come and save them like no one in Crimea asked him to come and save them. Putin's excuse for going in is literally the same excuse Hitler used: Create a boogeyman out of an imaginary world and try to convince the world that that boogeyman really exists.

If you don't like my comments, block me. Unlike any similar site that may or may not exist in Russia, this forum is free and open and not subject to the dictatorial whims of an autocratic despot.

@AlaskaGuy I find it very interesting that the right wants out of the skirmish in the Ukraine. Even the right's most worshiped hero, Ronald Reagan, knew that "Peace through strength" was the only way. In fact, I vote once for Reagan based solely on that.

IMO, getting out of there and letting Putin have is way is insane, and even if Trump were still in and he let Putin have his way, it is far more likely, IMO, that Putin would double-cross even Trump, and keep on going, as it is far more likely that he sees Trump as a "useful idi0t".

And have you guys thought of the other possible solution to the skirmish??? Namely, Putin gets the hell out of Ukraine, takes his toy soldiers off the battle field and goes home? WTF is wrong with that? He is presently getting his a$$ kicked anyway, and is it the actions of a sane ruler to threaten the rest of the world with his nuclear weapons?

As I see it, the world is better off without Putin, just like it was better off without Hitler, Saddam Hussein, and other such human trash.
 

Puiu

Posts: 5,874   +4,884
TechSpot Elite
Politifact is a known joke in this country (USA).


What politico writes about the "5 billion" is factually true. You don't like politico? There are many sources that say the exact same thing.

The simple fact that you believed (or pretended to believe) that whole 5 billion "controversy" shows that you don't actually care about that, all you want is to search for excuses for putin to commit mass murder, regardless of how comical these excuses are.

Russian propaganda 101: always point fingers at others and never talk about or address what russia is doing.

"But... but Biden's son!!! putin was right to kill everybody in his way because of that!"
 
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