Microsoft confirms: Windows 11 requires TPM 2.0 in all machines... even virtual ones

brucek

Posts: 893   +1,293
This strange mentality that Microsoft is somehow bullying you to upgrade is what's wrong with most people's arguments here.
They are not bullying anyone to upgrade today, because Windows 10 remains supported.

But the writing is now on the wall. Windows 10 support will end, long before hardware without TPM2 stops being useful for many home, business and industrial tasks. At that point Microsoft will indeed be bullying for the needless destruction of billions - trillions even? - of dollars of otherwise still useful IT equipment.
 

Burty117

Posts: 4,229   +2,278
They are not bullying anyone to upgrade today, because Windows 10 remains supported.

But the writing is now on the wall. Windows 10 support will end, long before hardware without TPM2 stops being useful for many home, business and industrial tasks. At that point Microsoft will indeed be bullying for the needless destruction of billions - trillions even? - of dollars of otherwise still useful IT equipment.
You could say the same thing when Vista came out. Needed higher end hardware to run.

Also, October 2025 is a long way away and let's be honest, if there's that many of you running Windows 10 still by then, they'll probably extend the support a few more years.

I think it needs saying here and now, you can stick to Windows 10 even after it's gone out of support. You're again projecting the feeling of being forced to upgrade when you're really not, if you want to stick with your 10 year old PC, you do you bo.
 

brucek

Posts: 893   +1,293
The fact that some numbers of individual users will choose to get left behind does not change the macro point I am trying to make, which is that the TPM decision today will inexorably lead to the needless destruction of billions of dollars of IT equipment tomorrow. Microsoft's withholding of bug fixes for those left behind systems will cause further substantial economic damage when they are exploited.

I'm getting well off topic from the article now, but I've been amazed our political and legal system has been as tolerant of Microsoft as it has. When asbestos was killing people, we did not say "well they should have upgraded to insulation 2.0". I don't know why Microsoft is allowed to unilaterally declare lack of any responsibility for the security loopholes it created, has the power to fix, and decides not to.

(btw while you could say TPM is an attempt do better at security, I agree with the others here that the new strengths it is providing are not a match for the vulnerabilities that are actually being exploited and will still be exploited even with Win 11 / TPM.)
 

cliffordcooley

Posts: 12,989   +6,310
The fact that some numbers of individual users will choose to get left behind does not change the macro point I am trying to make, which is that the TPM decision today will inexorably lead to the needless destruction of billions of dollars of IT equipment tomorrow.
Agreed! And for those that think it will stop with TPM 2.0. They are naive. How many numbers are there after 2.0 that will do the same in the future?

I can already picture Windows 12 being advertised to support TPM 3.0. It's almost as if they are using TPM as a replacement for DirectX. Now that DirectX has matured to a point of slow advancement. What else are they going to use to promote future sales?

__ _ _ _ __ _ _ _ __ _ _ _ __ _ _ _ __ _ _ _ __ _ _ _ __ _ _ _ __ _ _ _ __
Obsolescence by design is brilliant from a business perspective. The only question is if we (as consumers) will allow it. Sure we will. We are as a whole, ignorant and gullible. We no longer have a government fighting for our best interest.
 

Burty117

Posts: 4,229   +2,278
The fact that some numbers of individual users will choose to get left behind does not change the macro point I am trying to make, which is that the TPM decision today will inexorably lead to the needless destruction of billions of dollars of IT equipment tomorrow. Microsoft's withholding of bug fixes for those left behind systems will cause further substantial economic damage when they are exploited.
What are you on about? When a new CPU comes out, do we just destroy the last versions? When a new GPU comes out, do we all just go out and buy the latest and destroy the last one?
Agreed! And for those that think it will stop with TPM 2.0. They are naive. How many numbers are there after 2.0 that will do the same in the future?
Then why aren't you using Windows 3.0? Honestly the lack of logic here is astounding.
I can already picture Windows 12 being advertised to support TPM 3.0. It's almost as if they are using TPM as a replacement for DirectX. Now that DirectX has matured to a point of slow advancement. What else are they going to use to promote future sales?
So what your saying is they should have sold Windows 3.0 back in the day and just released updates all these years and just left it as Windows 3.0. I'll let you be the judge of how clever an argument that is...
 

cliffordcooley

Posts: 12,989   +6,310
So what your saying
What I'm saying is MS never really cared to force security until now. Now when they are running out of software options to force on people. They are now using security as a way to force new hardware, which in turn gets them a new sell. In a decade or two MS will have people believing they have no choice but to upgrade hardware every two years. Just to keep their software updated. MS doesn't care if you can financially afford to do so. They will cut you off all the same. Because you know "That is just good business".

This is however only the icing of my anger toward MS. I had already started my walk away from MS. They simply sealed the deal with this bull5hit.
 

brucek

Posts: 893   +1,293
What are you on about? When a new CPU comes out, do we just destroy the last versions?
If by "we" you mean the readers of this thread, I couldn't predict and also don't care. We make up a tiny tiny tiny tiny fraction of what I'm talking about.

What I'm "on about" is the much more predictable actions of the business, government, educational, and military owners of vast numbers of PCs that will be near auto-retired and landfilled in response to end of commercial support. By pressing this button, Microsoft will cause billions of economic destruction first by requiring those units to be needlessly replaced; then not-trivial environmental destruction because they including their non-harmless ingredients will be buried somewhere; and then further economic damage from not supporting whatever units remain behind and are rendered even more easily vulnerable to criminal exploitation.

re: your earlier point about we could have said the same thing about Vista, a) in some part yes we should have, but also b) the rate of improvement in these computers compared to their underlying functional needs is significantly different now. Five year old computers today are essentially fully mission capable for most mainstream uses and they likely would remain so for many years to come if not for artificial obsolescence. That was not as true back then.
 

Burty117

Posts: 4,229   +2,278
What I'm saying is MS never really cared to force security until now. Now when they are running out of software options to force on people. They are now using security as a way to force new hardware, which in turn gets them a new sell. In a decade or two MS will have people believing they have no choice but to upgrade hardware every two years. Just to keep their software updated. MS doesn't care if you can financially afford to do so. They will cut you off all the same. Because you know "That is just good business".

This is however only the icing of my anger toward MS. I had already started my walk away from MS. They simply sealed the deal with this bull5hit.
So I'll ask again, why aren't you using Windows 3.0
What I'm "on about" is the much more predictable actions of the business, government, educational, and military owners of vast numbers of PCs that will be near auto-retired and landfilled in response to end of commercial support.
Ok, let's use your example of the business sector and ending commercial support. When HPE ended support for Gen8 servers, no longer producing firmware updates and millions of servers being thrown into a land fill, did you start shouting in HPE forums that they were ending support too early?
 

brucek

Posts: 893   +1,293
Ok, let's use your example of the business sector and ending commercial support. When HPE ended support for Gen8 servers, no longer producing firmware updates and millions of servers being thrown into a land fill, did you start shouting in HPE forums that they were ending support too early?
I don't have any exposure or interest to HPE Gen8 servers, so no I did not. If it is true that happened then yes I would be upset. Even so I'd note:
- "HPE Gen8 server" is a much smaller market then "Win 10 computer"
- After maybe an initial stability period for brand new hardware, required firmware updates come up a lot less frequently than O/S security updates. If your server firmware worked last week it's a good bet it's going to work this week. That's not at all true with O/S: your patched computer deemed fit to be on the corporate network this week will likely be deemed unfit next week if the flow of security patches stop.

(Which is what this is all really about: Microsoft knows a penny-pinching bean counter will not see any actual functional reason to upgrade their five year old computers and therefore won't spend to do it; but will absolutely approve their en-masse replacement overnight if told it is legally negligent to leave them in use without security patches.)
 

captaincranky

Posts: 17,374   +6,125
You don't NEED to upgrade, they aren't forcing you and have actively said "stay on windows 10 if you have unsupported hardware".
Well, "Windows 11":, was not even supposed to happen, according to Nadella, while he was ramming 10 down the world's throat. Now it seems, they have announced an "end of life date", on it.

I neither forgive nor forget (Up to and including never).. Others of course, are free to choose their own course of actions, and the rational.behind them
 

Burty117

Posts: 4,229   +2,278
I don't have any exposure or interest to HPE Gen8 servers, so no I did not. If it is true that happened then yes I would be upset.
But why? Why would you be upset? Out of interest, what do you have exposure to when it comes to businesses and technology?
(Which is what this is all really about: Microsoft knows a penny-pinching bean counter will not see any actual functional reason to upgrade their five year old computers and therefore won't spend to do it; but will absolutely approve their en-masse replacement overnight if told it is legally negligent to leave them in use without security patches.)
So what you're saying is, the way we've been doing it all these years, releasing new major versions that require better hardware, is all wrong. How do you propose we move forward then? Just never improve?

Also, why is there no major competition to Microsoft? When a company went from Windows 7 to 10, why didn't they go Apple Mac or install a Linux distribution?
 

captaincranky

Posts: 17,374   +6,125
So what you're saying is, the way we've been doing it all these years, releasing new major versions that require better hardware, is all wrong. How do you propose we move forward then? Just never improve?
My only objection to the whole sordid affair, is that M$, is finally answering the question of which comes first, the chicken or the egg, once and for all. While I agree with you that new OSes often benefit from newer hardware, it never approached the "mandatory status", that Windows 11 is inflicting.
Also, why is there no major competition to Microsoft? When a company went from Windows 7 to 10, why didn't they go Apple Mac or install a Linux distribution?
A simple answer to my reason for not going to Linus is a basic as not being able to move the task bar? (Maybe someone with more knowledge of the OS can, I can't).

Consequently, for web use, I have a vertical monitor. In that orientation, the task bar resides on the left of the screen, eating up valuable screen real estate, and making the typing area too small.

Oh, and the friggin' video driver stopped working on the Ubuntu distro I was using..

Funnily enough, for all the crap that's being dished out about "how bad Intel is at supplying video drivers", I've never had an issue with any of their IGPs not working, In fact, anytime I have trouble with an Nvidia card, I just yank it, and the old trusty Intel IGP, works flawlessly for the bailout.

I freely admit that I am barely a hobbyist, and that my ambitions toward "world dominance via computer" are easily dwarfed by many others here. Hell, XP is good enough for me, were it not for the desktop background slideshow function in 7, I could be happy with that. (Well, er mostly). Only when the shIttin' thing refuses to move or delete a folder for no logical reason, do I lose patience with it.
.
 
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This will be just as poorly-adopted as Vista was.

The amount of people out there running Coffee Lake+, with all the options turned-on is probably less than 10% of all Windows users.

Business Users are likely to be the biggest draw for this (super secure Bitlocker), but given the fact that many Businesses Desktops get replaced once every 5 years, you're going to have to wait 3 or more years for anyone ready to transition over (no exceptions OR VMs to work-around , so you wait for the numbers to change)

My Skylake i5 from my hardware 2018 refresh does not support Windows 11. Two more years to replace MY hardware, then another year for anyone who got Kaby Lake (also not supported) then another for actually porting a hundred thousand PCs - going to be a mess getting it all done by 2025!

I feel like they've got blinders on.

Don't they realize how many PC users out there are unaware of how to purchase PCs these days? People like my uncles and aunts, in their 60s, who peaked in a time where you bought an all-in-one. They're all about to look at their PCs with chips ranging from 4 to 8 years old and say to themselves, What's wrong with what I've got? It runs so well.

I don't know quite what their endgame is, beyond trying to create a closed loop ecosystem like Apple, but older folks are gonna despise it. Hell, they'll probably pony up for Apple desktops instead, because they'll figure if they're now restricted to closed loops, they may as well go with the Apple all-in-ones. They're one-package desktops and they're a hell of a lot prettier.
 
The end-game here is MS wants to move towards a fully locked down platform so they can eventually have an exclusive app store with fat tax on all software like Apple's, right? (Plus probably a desktop that displays ads and gathers enough data to make Google look quaint.)

If they can't explain any benefits to users, assume the benefit is for Microsoft.
Yep that's what I suspect too. This is to use against the consumers not protect them. I'm sure the end goal is taking administrative rights away, implementing more draconian DRM, and ultimately killing the single payment license entirely so consumers have no rights at all for "buying" software or media anymore.
 

Bp968

Posts: 236   +167
That "ummm....yeahhh" patronizing manner of talking about TPM is sure to piss people off.

"As the Redmond giant tries to clarify why we need TPM 2.0 enabled to run its latest operating system, the company states that it will also be necessary for virtual machines."

Yeah they haven't cleared up anything. They havent explained why the virtual method of doing whatever "security" they want through TPM cant be dont on older hardware despite offering almost 0 performance penalty. They cant even describe how TPM will help "secure" their systems other then "muh ransomware" which, dude, ask any server admin, TPM doesnt do jack to stop ransomware. You cant fix stupid users who willingly click on things.

They cant manage to move all of control panel intot he settings menu for going on 10 years now, keep breaking their OS with updates, but hey you need TPM 2.0 to run our new UI update.

Perhaps MS should focus on actually fixing their broken network printing vulnerabilites, AGAIN:

https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/new-windows-security-updates-break-network-printing/

You also cant run apple software on non apple hardware. Apples and oranges comparison.

I was going to defend MS until you brought up the control panel stuff. Trying to change controller settings or sound settings is truely *****ic now. I the the microphone setup has 3 different locations, all with different settings and all 3 with different GUIs as well! It just makes it clear that they slapped a new microphone setup on top of the old one but didn't actually make sure all the settings were available in the new one. So all the succeeded in doing was scattering the settings around multiple menus. Stupid.
 

captaincranky

Posts: 17,374   +6,125
Yep that's what I suspect too. This is to use against the consumers not protect them. I'm sure the end goal is taking administrative rights away, implementing more draconian DRM, and ultimately killing the single payment license entirely so consumers have no rights at all for "buying" software or media anymore.
I have an Ivybridge rig, (i5-6600K/Z170) that I built with the last copy of Win 7 Pro (**) I had laying around, as soon as I got wind of Windows 10's mandatory updates, and force the feeding M$ was employing to "give it away free". I subscribe to the idea that, "there's no such thing as a free lunch", and was suspicious of M$' motives from day one. Point of fact, M$ giving away something that retails for a minimum of $100.00, has to have sdtrings and a huge self serving ulterrior motive attached. I can't identify the source, but I heard the concept put forward that, "Windows was a service". Well, most to all services share one thing in common, they have recurring subscription fees, which I also think, M$ is going to float sometime in the not too distant future.

M$, with its new mandatory updates, has already taken a big chunk of administrator rights away from users with Win 10., and this new "11" version, sounds much more invasive from the jump. Just look at the trials and tribulations experienced by "administrators", trying to accomplish things that were once done easily via a central location, "control panel"..

Judging by the rapidity which hardware makers jumped on the Win 10 bandwagon, with both Intel and AMD flatly stating, "all of our new processors will only be fully compatible with Windows 10", I also can't help but think there's a lot of cigar smoke and collusion between them and M$, going on in executive washrooms around the globe. This new issue of TPM 2.0, to me, is a thinly veiled effort to bring "planned obsolescence" to the desktop world..

This is sort of OK in the smartphone world, as they can get pretty ratty looking over the course of a very few years. But a decent desktop box, can last a minimum of a decade and look and function like brand new.. Plus it can be repaired by the user, which is something Apple doesn't ever allow at present, at least with respect to their phones..

The lack of optical drives bays on the newer cases, tells me one thing, that you're being herded to streaming and purchasing content from the web only. Call me old fashioned, but there's at least one optical drive in every one of my machines. No, it's not easier to run to Redbox, but it is actually a lot cheaper than streaming the very same movie from them.

We have a lot of performance fanatics here, (not judging), who will never be satisfied with anything less than , "the latest and greatest", up to and including, flashing lights on each and every component. (There's the sit at a desk analog, of, "car enthusiasts")...

I can't help but think that M$ is watching how Adobe's all subscription model does, and using it as a barometer to determine their future course of action.

I'm in a strangely chatty mood, and I could go on for pages about the bullsh!t going on in this industry, and how people's greed and sheer laziness, will ultimately lead to their subjugation by M$, but who will listen?

I'm sure I'll be dismissed ad old, stodgy, and living in the past. Yet still, I remain at a moderate level of control over my media consumption, and administrative rights, while those who blindly follow the path M$ has laid out for them, will find themselves in deep sh!t, in the very near future.

(**) Gigabyte screwed M#, by putting USB 3.0 drivers in their UEFI BIOS. After wandering the web to find out if it was possible to even install Win 7 on a machine "this new", I learned that most people that tried, failed. The reason this happened was lack of a DVD drive, and simply being unwilling to put in the time to install from DVD. "It's too slow" yadda, yadda, yadda...! Yet my install went flawlessly, smoothly, easily, and correctly, despite taking a few more minutes to pull it off.

I think I've used up far more time than "my two cents" could possibly buy, so I'll close for now. Cheers. (y) (Y) .
 
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captaincranky

Posts: 17,374   +6,125
So all the succeeded in doing was scattering the settings around multiple menus. Stupid.
Well no, it's not "stupid". It's a thoughtfully conceived arrangement, to take control away from the user, and return it to M$. Many will simply give up, and M$ wins control of the machine.

To dismiss it as "stupid", is somewhat naive. A lot of thought and pre-planning are very likely involved, with the end goal of wresting control of your machine from you, and handing it back to M$, as I stated before..I agree though, it seems "stupid", since it's subtlety can't automatically be confused with the actual premeditation intended..

Many people are so invested in gaming and ultimate performance, they're not paying attention as the rug is being pulled out from under them.

The best way to commit murder you ask? Make it seem like an accident. Final answer..
 
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Burty117

Posts: 4,229   +2,278
My only objection to the whole sordid affair, is that M$, is finally answering the question of which comes first, the chicken or the egg, once and for all. While I agree with you that new OSes often benefit from newer hardware, it never approached the "mandatory status", that Windows 11 is inflicting.
I do agree with you to a certain extent, the difference between yours and my view is that I've been using and enabling TPM for bitlocker for businesses since Windows 8. To me, using a TPM chip to encrypt a drive is just standard affair. It's about time your average consumer got more security and not just businesses.
A simple answer to my reason for not going to Linus is a basic as not being able to move the task bar? (Maybe someone with more knowledge of the OS can, I can't).

Consequently, for web use, I have a vertical monitor. In that orientation, the task bar resides on the left of the screen, eating up valuable screen real estate, and making the typing area too small.

Oh, and the friggin' video driver stopped working on the Ubuntu distro I was using..

Funnily enough, for all the crap that's being dished out about "how bad Intel is at supplying video drivers", I've never had an issue with any of their IGPs not working, In fact, anytime I have trouble with an Nvidia card, I just yank it, and the old trusty Intel IGP, works flawlessly for the bailout.

I freely admit that I am barely a hobbyist, and that my ambitions toward "world dominance via computer" are easily dwarfed by many others here. Hell, XP is good enough for me, were it not for the desktop background slideshow function in 7, I could be happy with that. (Well, er mostly). Only when the shIttin' thing refuses to move or delete a folder for no logical reason, do I lose patience with it.
So basically, you hate Microsoft for forcing the TPM requirement (even though it doesn't affect you) but you don't hate them enough to learn a competing product.
 

captaincranky

Posts: 17,374   +6,125
I do agree with you to a certain extent, the difference between yours and my view is that I've been using and enabling TPM for bitlocker for businesses since Windows 8. To me, using a TPM chip to encrypt a drive is just standard affair. It's about time your average consumer got more security and not just businesses.
Here's the thing,. While I'm aware that the TPM is protection against outside attack, I still have no need of it. I'm a bachelor, an orphan, an only child, and a sociopath.. Hence, I have absolutely no need of passwords, or encrypted drives, since nobody lives with me, and I don't allow visitors. My house has an alarm system, which may not seem as though it has a positive effect on the computer's security, but it does. The police will be here, long before anyone gains access to my systems. My only constant companions are my three cats, and they are less capable of of managing a computer system than I.

Besides, if I need a drive encrypted, I can always wait for a passing piece of ransomware to do it for me. 🤣.

There's very little on my internet machine that I can't afford to lose, and there's a spare C;/ drive sitting on top of the one powering the machine.

So, while my somewhat bleak existence may not appeal to many, it works like a charm for me.

So basically, you hate Microsoft for forcing the TPM requirement (even though it doesn't affect you) but you don't hate them enough to learn a competing product.
No, I didn't hate M$, until they put Satya Nadella in charge of it.. Windows 8 was a cruel joke, and and Win 10 arrived with Mr. Nadella. So, here I am at Win 7, and quite content to be there.

As I was saying in another post, "the way to commit the perfect murder, is to make it look like an accident"..

If you want to introduce planned obsolescence, draw attention away from it by constantly shouting, "improvement in security", through a bullhorn", and you've managed to commit the perfect computer crime, and the need for all new hardware looks like an accident.

I have a specific strong dislike of doing business with people of Indian descent (No, I'm not a racist, but I am "ethnocentric"). And no, it's not a matter of predisposition, it's a matter of experiences

I walked into a vape shop last weekend, run by two gentleman of Indian descent. They really weren't interested in answering any questions, just if I wanted to buy more product. At the ring out, I handed them my bank card, punched in my PIN number, and they rang up the sale. While the register had a screen facing me. The sale completed, and I expected to see the total on said screen. All I got was a blank red screen, along with no receipt. I actually had to go home and log into my bank account to find out how much I had been charged. If this were a random incident, I wouldn't mention it. But it is the thing I've come to expect, (and them some), with people from that culture. So, Nadella's tactics of ramming Windows 10 down the public's throat will never be forgiven or forgotten. "It's just another brick in the Wall", so to speak. My short term memory is getting a bit dodgy, but my long term recall, is up and running well.

As for Linux, I would swear that Ubuntu has become more hardware intensive than XP. Every system I've tried it on, has wound up with video crashes. So, I'm only in computers and by extension Techspot, to study other computer enthusiast's behaviour, and for the laughs. "Bash this", or "apt get that"., "open a terminal", doesn't really appeal to me all that much. Yes, I'm guilty of being a lazy, apathetic, chronic Windows addict / user. (As long as it's lucky number seven")..

I figure if I have a decent AV running, and use some common sense, Win 7 will do just fine, and I won't have to put up with the bullsh!t, propaganda, and garbage, that's coming out of Redmond these days.

Oh and BTW, I spelled "behavior", "behaviour", out of respect for you and possibly the queen. Ex prince Harry and his Megan hag, are a nuisance though, Please take them back,:won't cha?.:rolleyes:...
 
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rmcrys

Posts: 63   +67
1) MS reasons are nonsense, if they supported Skylake and above and all Ryzen CPUs, they would be fair and still exclude millions of CPUs (but then already "old"). They include hardware that is much slower or capable than other much faster and capable just because they were released sooner. An 2016 BMW M5 is still much better than a 2021 Ford Fiesta...

2) they could make a "secure" Version for TPM, so private and enterprise who value security above everything, then would be happy

3) MS should worry more about optimizing their SW than with hardware that runs it. But no, there are very dark businesses in the background....

4) I hope Wine, Proton, Vulkan, DXVK, etc take a HUGE advance so people can run Win apps and games on Linux and MacOS. Not only but that developers STOP F...... writing everything that runs only on windows!
 

ZedRM

Posts: 631   +395
https://www.cvedetails.com/top-50-products.php

1. Linux
2. Linux
3. Linux
4. Custom BSD
5. Linux
6. Custom BSD
7. Windows

As a single vendor, Microsoft may win (or lose) by virtue of how many products they push. But overall Linux is *not* in any way more secure than Windows.
Not only is that list misquoted(fixed to be accurate), it is also fundamentally flawed as a citation. For example when we look at last years results we see that Microsoft dominated the list, but in 2019 there was a more or less even mix of OS varieties. Then when you scroll down to the bottom of the page to look at "Total Number Of Vulnerabilities Of Top 50 Products By Vendor ", Microsoft tops the list(by far), followed by Apple. Everyone else comes in a fair distance lower. Hmmm...

The reality is that vulnerabilities vary drastically from year to year and even vary wildly in severity. As such, lists like that can NEVER be used as a metric for gauging the quality of an OS or OS type nor overall level of security of same.

They all have their situational pros and cons.
That part of your statement is true.
 
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Darth Shiv

Posts: 2,221   +791
If by "we" you mean the readers of this thread, I couldn't predict and also don't care. We make up a tiny tiny tiny tiny fraction of what I'm talking about.

What I'm "on about" is the much more predictable actions of the business, government, educational, and military owners of vast numbers of PCs that will be near auto-retired and landfilled in response to end of commercial support. By pressing this button, Microsoft will cause billions of economic destruction first by requiring those units to be needlessly replaced; then not-trivial environmental destruction because they including their non-harmless ingredients will be buried somewhere; and then further economic damage from not supporting whatever units remain behind and are rendered even more easily vulnerable to criminal exploitation.

re: your earlier point about we could have said the same thing about Vista, a) in some part yes we should have, but also b) the rate of improvement in these computers compared to their underlying functional needs is significantly different now. Five year old computers today are essentially fully mission capable for most mainstream uses and they likely would remain so for many years to come if not for artificial obsolescence. That was not as true back then.
Win10 will be updated for a few more years yet.
 

ron baer

Posts: 34   +11
Interesting that are pushing that since I am in the Beta channel using a Haswell CPU without any issues other than print spooler issues but im not the only one with that issue