The US looks to kill Chinese chipmaking ambitions with ASML sales ban

Hexic

Posts: 1,246   +1,960
TechSpot Elite
If only we lived in a geopolitical fantasy where "being nice" and assuming other countries aren't out for the same slice of pie.

Welcome to reality, China is in no way domestic in their thievery, hacking, and international bullying. If the US wasn't driving world commerce someone else would be, and that someone else has the tendency to be orders of magnitude worse.

Don't even start with that "USA = bully, China is just trying to grow" crap. That's not how the world has worked, currently works, or will ever work. China would have total control of the global economy, as would many other nations if given the chance.

International politics are dirty, nasty, and never clear. The sooner the idealists take off their rose-tinted glasses the sooner they'll realize you either own or are owned. Yeesh.
 

Dsirius

Posts: 254   +471
Wake up
If only we lived in a geopolitical fantasy where "being nice" and assuming other countries aren't out for the same slice of pie.

Welcome to reality, China is in no way domestic in their thievery, hacking, and international bullying. If the US wasn't driving world commerce someone else would be, and that someone else has the tendency to be orders of magnitude worse.

Don't even start with that "USA = bully, China is just trying to grow" crap. That's not how the world has worked, currently works, or will ever work. China would have total control of the global economy, as would many other nations if given the chance.

International politics are dirty, nasty, and never clear. The sooner the idealists take off their rose-tinted glasses the sooner they'll realize you either own or are owned. Yeesh.
US has total control now, they claim that they are the single superpower in the world but in the same time is crying that China is catching up fast and may outrun them soon and "Ohh, they will be worse than us". Lame, hypocritical excuse. Also accepting a vision that u cannot be the 1st and also "'nice" (like in honest at least) is way too fatalist. US has the chance to correct it's wrongdoings.
As I said in another post - It is hard nowadays to live and be objective in a society in which it's own govern spies and steal the entire world people information. Especially when the rest of the world is aware.
A useful link for comparing "present" US relations with Africa and China relations with Africa from a former African country minister:
 
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Endymio

Posts: 1,827   +1,895
Wake up dude.... "Ohh, they will be worse than us". Lame, hypocritical excuse.
China has some three million innocent civilians in slave-labor death camps, with shoot-to-kill orders for anyone caught trying to escape. The US has zero. The Chinese government employs several hundred thousand people full time to censor the Internet, and blocks tens of thousands of sites entirely. The US censors none. China has jailed thousands of people for doing no more than signing an online petition calling for government reform. The US has jailed none. China has arrested more journalists for reporting unfavorable news than any other nation in the world. The US has arrested none.

Still want to equate the two nations? Then read this:

"The consequences of [China's 'One Child' policy of] forced abortions, sterilizations, abandoned newborns, and government abductions are just being realized.

"One Child Nation," a documentary by Amazon Studios, hits theaters Friday, detailing the devastation felt by parents forced to abandon their children, in many cases knowing they would die, and women forced to have abortions or sterilizations "tied like pigs" to satisfy the Communist Party...

"Every woman has almost gone through a forced abortion or forced sterilization," Nanfu Wang, co-director and producer of the documentary, told PBS. "Sometimes the babies...they were born alive, and because of the policy and her job, she had to kill them after they were born alive, and she is really traumatized because of that."

Wang spoke to the midwife who delivered her, who admitted doing 50 to 60,000 abortions over her time to enact a policy that the government claims prevented 400 million births.


“I was the one who killed. I was the executioner,” the midwife said. “The state gave the orders, but I carried it out.”...
 

Dsirius

Posts: 254   +471
China has some three million innocent civilians in slave-labor death camps, with shoot-to-kill orders for anyone caught trying to escape. The US has zero. The Chinese government employs several hundred thousand people full time to censor the Internet, and blocks tens of thousands of sites entirely. The US censors none. China has jailed thousands of people for doing no more than signing an online petition calling for government reform. The US has jailed none. China has arrested more journalists for reporting unfavorable news than any other nation in the world. The US has arrested none.

Still want to equate the two nations? Then read this:

"The consequences of [China's 'One Child' policy of] forced abortions, sterilizations, abandoned newborns, and government abductions are just being realized.

"One Child Nation," a documentary by Amazon Studios, hits theaters Friday, detailing the devastation felt by parents forced to abandon their children, in many cases knowing they would die, and women forced to have abortions or sterilizations "tied like pigs" to satisfy the Communist Party...

"Every woman has almost gone through a forced abortion or forced sterilization," Nanfu Wang, co-director and producer of the documentary, told PBS. "Sometimes the babies...they were born alive, and because of the policy and her job, she had to kill them after they were born alive, and she is really traumatized because of that."

Wang spoke to the midwife who delivered her, who admitted doing 50 to 60,000 abortions over her time to enact a policy that the government claims prevented 400 million births.


“I was the one who killed. I was the executioner,” the midwife said. “The state gave the orders, but I carried it out.”...
Clearly at least some of these are wrongdoings by China govern. I agree to this point. Wrongdoing is wrong regardless of country.
Though even some of these claims are exaggerated there are some truths in them for sure ( I could find them).
A little parenthesis - abortion matter is not a good example and debatable, especially when US Supreme court totally banned abortion (correction, not totally, thx to Endymio for pointing it out). So u see, wrongdoings on both sides. Many people ask themselves why they are so extremists, on one side coerced abortion, on the other side coerced banned abortion.
Some of those sources u mentioned are close to propaganda and not so much with evidences, proofs. Like the image of a desperate chinese woman in the article about abortion.
That image is from an eartquake from China and that's why the woman is desperate. This is US lame propaganda, the abortion in China was a true fact, but the redactors can be from lazy liars to maliciously liars by publishing that image.
It became a real issue the fact that I have to double check whatever US media is claiming about China because of too many lies and propaganda spreaded which only makes more difficult to find the truth for those who do not pay attention or let them too easy be manipulated.
My opinion is that the real problem for US now is that they betrayed the trust of the entire world besides it's own citizens by spying and stealing all people's information all over the world through NSA, CIA, FBI, Facebook, Google, Apple, Amazon, Microsoft, Intel, list is long.
And a lot of people found this betrayal revolting. To regain world trust, or at least my trust, US has to prove itself through beneficial actions from now on, and not by words and lame propaganda, and I am willing to give it at least a 2nd chance for that if they are covered by actions which correct it's wrongdoings. Let's hope that US will find the courage and determination to make it happen ASAP.
 
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Endymio

Posts: 1,827   +1,895
Clearly at least some of these are wrongdoings by China govern...Though even some of these claims are exaggerated
Which ones?

Abortion matter for example is not a good one and debatable, especially when US Supreme court totally banned abortion.
You're confused. The US Supreme Court did no such thing. In fact, it did very nearly the exact opposite: it stated that it had no right to regulate abortion whatsoever.
 

Dsirius

Posts: 254   +471
Which ones?

You're confused. The US Supreme Court did no such thing. In fact, it did very nearly the exact opposite: it stated that it had no right to regulate abortion whatsoever.
Some of us, in fact many, can read between the lines of US Supreme court decision. Usually I check my statements and back them with sources.
Also the Court decision will have far wider and controversial implications.
I can give you an interesting point of view about this Court decision which I found it on my research. The US census data shows that in near future, the "pure white" majority of american citizens will be outnumbered by other ethnics groups combined. Also, the majority of women which make abortions are ethnic "white". So an easily missed point of view is rising now regarding Supreme court decision implications. I know that politics has the heaviest role here too, but is important to have as many, clear and good angles about the matter.
I corrected and updated my post with your observation.
 
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Endymio

Posts: 1,827   +1,895
Some of us, in fact many, can read between the lines of US Supreme court decision.
You mean, fabricate falsehoods about the decision. I personally support abortion ... but that doesn't change the fact that Roe v. Wade was horrendously bad law. Regardless, the statement that the Supreme Court "just banned abortion" is an absurdly egregious untruth. Their decision means that many states will actually loosen abortion restrictions, while others will tighten them. But in any and all cases, the voters now have a right to decide for themselves. Democracy wins the day.
 

Dsirius

Posts: 254   +471
You mean, fabricate falsehoods about the decision. I personally support abortion ... but that doesn't change the fact that Roe v. Wade was horrendously bad law. Regardless, the statement that the Supreme Court "just banned abortion" is an absurdly egregious untruth. Their decision means that many states will actually loosen abortion restrictions, while others will tighten them. But in any and all cases, the voters now have a right to decide for themselves. Democracy wins the day.
I support it too for the right reasons. I hope that u get what I meant to say about implications. 26 US states (republicans) intend to ban it. This is half or a little more than half of the US states, depending on how u consider and count Puerto Rico, District of Columbia, may be other regions too. Yes Roe v. Wade was controversial law especially if we relate to nowadays, need to be updated. Unfortunately 2022 US Supreme court decisions create more issues than resolve. This is politics, you cannot please everybody and Supreme court may decide for other reasons than we expect to or should be democratic.
 
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rmcrys

Posts: 250   +208
Probably because that "trade partner" has millions of people in slave-labor genocide camps, is actively engaged in stealing trillions of dollars of intellectual property from western companies, is threatening to invade Taiwan and take over the entire South China Sea, and is growing its military faster than the US, the UK, France, Germany, Japan, and Australia all combined.

+1

China (and others) is just "there" doing unfair business: they buy just what they need; they produce/sell everything, no matter what.

About Europe on this matter: in the last 2 decades unemployment went up and a huge amount of European companies went down our went to China because there you can produce much cheaper (the Chinese work much longer, harder, live to work concept and all that for much less, as caring much less about climate change). Then, very rich Chinese buy companies, football clubs, entire buildings and speculate/ increase prices for the locals.

At the end:
1) they attracted manufacturing with unfair competition
2) the "bosses" got even richer
3) they came to the EU (some via investors in Belgium or Spain) and bought many key investments (and some were stopped by governments, as they tried to buy energy companies, Telcom, etc etc) and now increased prices
4) they earned at the end even more money and have a monopoly
5) what they can't develop (waste of time they think) they steal / copy
6) if you try to do the same in China, you'll have no luck.
7) more of that money is to buy more weapons, get even bigger and dominate.

So, where lies the fair business from China? China is a bully and in the last 2 decades the world just have China more money and reasons to grow up.
 

zamroni111

Posts: 367   +215
If they can't buy it, they'll just steal the blueprints from somewhere and reverse engineer it.

At best, all it would accomplish for the West, is delaying their 2025 timetable, in the same way all we're doing is delaying Iran getting nukes.
even if they have the machine, reverse engineering it is still extremely difficult because it's about nanometer precision of mechanical, optical and chemical engineering.
 

rmcrys

Posts: 250   +208
even if they have the machine, reverse engineering it is still extremely difficult because it's about nanometer precision of mechanical, optical and chemical engineering.

They can just pay 50 million to a couple of ASML engineers + download the software from the already bought machine and the party begins. They did it already many times ago with other techs.

European football trend: China sends young football players to be trained (acquire the technique) in European clubs, China pays very well for the training > after 10 years they already have most of the knowledge, they just have to have natural skills from the Chinese + they have brutal amount of money to pay for international players > they stop investing on European clubs > they have the best teams + sunken European clubs > China wins.

Keep helping China...
 

zamroni111

Posts: 367   +215
They can just pay 50 million to a couple of ASML engineers + download the software from the already bought machine and the party begins. They did it already many times ago with other techs.

European football trend: China sends young football players to be trained (acquire the technique) in European clubs, China pays very well for the training > after 10 years they already have most of the knowledge, they just have to have natural skills from the Chinese + they have brutal amount of money to pay for international players > they stop investing on European clubs > they have the best teams + sunken European clubs > China wins.

Keep helping China...
If it's about the software, usa and india would have been able to produce high end duv or euv machine.
Chip making machinery is mechanical, optical and chemical engineering oriented.
 

rmcrys

Posts: 250   +208
If it's about the software, usa and india would have been able to produce high end duv or euv machine.
Chip making machinery is mechanical, optical and chemical engineering oriented.
The software contains curves / values and much more that drives the "printing" (optically, sensors, etc etc) from the center up to the peripheral zones, result of decades of research and improvement. That is much more important than the code itself, that is what I'm talking about. Let's summarize: the fine hardware and fine software is what makes the difference.
 

TheRealSCDC

Posts: 313   +435
Probably because that "trade partner" has millions of people in slave-labor genocide camps, is actively engaged in stealing trillions of dollars of intellectual property from western companies, is threatening to invade Taiwan and take over the entire South China Sea, and is growing its military faster than the US, the UK, France, Germany, Japan, and Australia all combined.

THIS!!!
 

MaitieS

Posts: 172   +190
If they can't buy it, they'll just steal the blueprints from somewhere and reverse engineer it.

At best, all it would accomplish for the West, is delaying their 2025 timetable, in the same way all we're doing is delaying Iran getting nukes.
This is just plainly false. You can not reverse engineering everything and just the fact that you are trying to imply that they are not doing it now is cherry on top...
 

Endymio

Posts: 1,827   +1,895
This is just plainly false. You can not reverse engineering everything and just the fact that you are trying to imply that they are not doing it now is cherry on top...
FYI:

"The heads of the FBI and UK domestic security service shared a platform for the first time to issue dire warnings about the threats posed by the Chinese government’s espionage operations, BBC News reports...."

July 7, 2022, Wall Street Journal: “The Chinese government is set on stealing your technology—whatever it is that makes your industry tick—and using it to undercut your business and dominate your market,”, said FBI Director [Wray] ....he added that the benefits of keeping a piece of technology confidential may sometimes outweigh those of accessing the Chinese market...."
 

R00sT3R

Posts: 693   +2,123
This is just plainly false. You can not reverse engineering everything and just the fact that you are trying to imply that they are not doing it now is cherry on top...

Lol, this is a country that sends its agents into fields to dig up Western engineered genetically modified crops to steal seed samples,ffs.

When you have tens, hundreds of millions of people at your disposal..anything is possible
 

MaitieS

Posts: 172   +190
Lol, this is a country that sends its agents into fields to dig up Western engineered genetically modified crops to steal seed samples,ffs.

When you have tens, hundreds of millions of people at your disposal..anything is possible
xDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD I am not even going to comment on this further because there is no reason to... waste of time... comparing crop to chips...
 

R00sT3R

Posts: 693   +2,123
xDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD I am not even going to comment on this further because there is no reason to... waste of time... comparing crop to chips...

Are you saying computer chips are more complicated than modifying nature at the genetic level?
 

Endymio

Posts: 1,827   +1,895
xDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD I am not even going to comment on this further because there is no reason to... waste of time... comparing crop to chips...
OK:

"In an indictment unsealed Thursday, the DOJ accused China’s Fujian Jinhua Integrated Circuits of economic espionage—of stealing proprietary technology from US-based Micron Technology to make dynamic random access memory chips..."

June 6, 2022: "Semiconductor firm ASML accused a Beijing-based firm, regarded by Chinese officials as one of the country’s most promising tech ventures, of stealing its trade secrets..."

Oct 18, 2018: "FBI indicts two Chinese intelligence officers and five hackers for breaking into the computer systems of 13 technology companies to steal trade secrets...."
 

silversea

Posts: 51   +86
The way I see it as soon as China invades Taiwan all the chip plants need to be totally destroyed beyond repair, there scientist's and workers from them plant's welcomed into the United States to start fresh in newly built chip plant's, China will be left with nothing...
 

MaitieS

Posts: 172   +190
Are you saying computer chips are more complicated than modifying nature at the genetic level?
Are you trolling me? You said: "country that sends its agents into fields to dig up Western engineered genetically modified crops to steal seed samples" how is stealing harder than making chips?....
 

MaitieS

Posts: 172   +190
OK:

"In an indictment unsealed Thursday, the DOJ accused China’s Fujian Jinhua Integrated Circuits of economic espionage—of stealing proprietary technology from US-based Micron Technology to make dynamic random access memory chips..."

June 6, 2022: "Semiconductor firm ASML accused a Beijing-based firm, regarded by Chinese officials as one of the country’s most promising tech ventures, of stealing its trade secrets..."

Oct 18, 2018: "FBI indicts two Chinese intelligence officers and five hackers for breaking into the computer systems of 13 technology companies to steal trade secrets...."
If they are so good at stealing why they are still a few generations behind? :)