Geralt
Posts: 1,387 +2,213
People in this century thought we were different now, more civilized than in the 20th century. But they were wrong: We continue to be the same bunch of barbarians like before.
Apple kicks 'Russian Facebook' off the App Store following new UK sanctions
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Endymio
Posts: 2,669 +2,701
Here's a US journalist, interviewing random people on the streets of Mariupol in Ukraine, all of whom explain how they voted in the referendum, and why. (spoiler: all but one voted for Russian annexation). Their comments about how the media intentionally misrepresents them are particularly poignant
It's hard to believe anyone would have the gall to put up Patrick Lancaster as proof of anything. Though it's no surprise from you:
Patrick Lancaster - Wikipedia
"During the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine, Vice Media and NBC News describe him as the most popular of the pro-Kremlin influencers spreading Russian propaganda and disinformation on YouTube.[2][8] According to Bellingcat, the scene in at least one of Lancaster's videos was staged.[8][9] An August investigation by Bellingcat found that one of Lancaster's YouTube videos showed the presence of, and helped identify, a Russian soldier suspected of torturing and castrating a Ukrainian prisoner of war.[19]
Lancaster's videos on the conflict have regularly been aired by Russian state owned media like Ruptly, Zvezda, and RT. Earlier in the conflict, his videos were also featured on international media like the Associated Press, ITN, Skynews, Reuters, SPIEGEL TV, however in 2022 Lancaster's sole 'international' outlet has been conspiracy theory website InfoWars."
And before your inevitable whining begins, all source material and citations are at the bottom. And the Bellingcat findings are unquestioned even among trump politicians. That's why they all dropped him.
Even for you and your incredible, persistent Russian propaganda, this is a new low. When are you going to realize that maybe America just isn't for you? And that's NOT a joke.
EDIT -
And no:
I'm not being intentionally obtuse.
I'm not confused.
There are no fallacies here. At least not from me.
And yes I'm serious
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terzaerian
Posts: 1,517 +2,260
Endymio
Posts: 2,669 +2,701
Still refusing to use those critical thinking skills? All source citations refer back to Bellingcat. The "scene" in this case is an IED attack which Bellingcat suspects was staged by Russian forces. An attack which Lancaster reported. Is it so? Quite possibly. Both sides are staging a number of attacks and "atrocities", and I know of more than a dozen events staged by Ukrainian forces, which were breathlessly repeated by Western media. Does that mean we should automatically discount AP, NBC, and the NY Times as "Ukrainian propapagandists"?
Nothing you say can hide the fact that Ukraine has been fighting a civil war the past decade against its ethnic Russian citizens, people whom Ukraine stripped of the right to vote, to hold political office, and even to speak their own language. Is Russia aiding the separatists? Sure. But that begs the question on why they so desperately wish to separate in the first place. And it also clearly demonstrates that a huge percentage of the people in Donbas don't wish to be Ukrainian.
As early as 2015, the EU and even the US Congress sanctioned ultranationalist paramilitary groups like the swastika-wearing Azov Battalion for their acts of terror against civilians in Donbas. How did the Ukrainian government react to that? They officially integrated Azov into their armed forces. There's an entire park devoted to the child victims of these forces -- some killed in raids on villages by Azov, others by artillery shelling of civilian areas. I visited this park myself a few years ago. Perhaps you should visit it as well:
Alley of Angels in Donetsk (Donetsk) Essential Tips and Information
The Alley of Angels in Donetsk, Ukraine is a memorial for children of Donbas killed during the War in Donbas. At the entrance there is an arch...
Wasting time with you is like trying to cure an addict.Still refusing to use those critical thinking skills, eh? All source citations inevitably refer back to the organization Bellingcat. The "scene" in this case is an IED attack which Bellingcat strongly suspects was staged by Russian forces. An attack which Lancaster reported. Is it true? Quite possibly. Both sides are doing this, and I know of more than a dozen attacks and other events staged by Ukrainian forces, all of which were breathlessly repeated by Western media. Does that mean we should automatically discount AP, NBC, and the NY Times as "Ukrainian propapagandists"?
And nothing you say can hide the fact that Ukraine has been fighting a civil war the past decade against its ethnic Russian citizens, people whom Ukraine stripped of the right to vote, to hold political office, and even to speak their own language. Is Russia aiding the separatists? Sure. But that begs the question on why they so desperately wish to separate in the first place, doesn't it? And it also clearly demonstrates that a huge percentage of the people in Donbas don't wish to be Ukrainian.
As early as 2015, the EU and even the US Congress sanctioned ultranationalist paramilitary groups like the swastika-wearing Azov Battalion for their acts of terror against civilians in Donbas. How did the Ukrainian government react to that? They officially integrated Azov into their armed forces. There's an entire park devoted to the child victims of these forces -- some killed in raids on villages by Azov, others by artillery shelling of civilian areas. I visited this park myself a few years ago. Perhaps you should visit it as well:
Alley of Angels in Donetsk (Donetsk) Essential Tips and Information
The Alley of Angels in Donetsk, Ukraine is a memorial for children of Donbas killed during the War in Donbas. At the entrance there is an arch...trek.zone
You have your post, disconnected from my comments as it is, and I have mine.
And honestly, I'm sick of the "both sides" excuse, so let me make myself clear.
If anyone from another country came to my country and started a war with us, and did the things to my fellow countrymen (even trumpers) that Russia has to the Ukrainians, I would have zero problems using every opportunity I could get to break every Geneva Convention rule in the book on his sorry ***. You get it?
Paybacks a *****.
Let's let everyone do their homework. Especially on the staged attack that got Lancaster all excited, because that incident was the biggest final straw that made the right drop him hard as a source of information. Except IW of course.
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terzaerian
Posts: 1,517 +2,260
Historically with Russia this has also gone the other way - in attempts to assert control over regions like Ukraine, or the Baltic states, Russians were settled in an attempt to assimilate those areas, often over the objections and resentment of their native cultures and peoples, an imperial practice the Irish parts of my family is all too familiar with.
Really it'd just be nice if we returned to a mode of thinking that allowed for problems to be difficult gray areas and history to work through instead of the constant black and white, endless present absolutist shrieking we now have.
Endymio
Posts: 2,669 +2,701
Very true. In the case of Crimea, the Russian population there settled in during the 1800s, displacing Tartars after the Crimean War. Crimea was gifted to Ukraine in 1954 by Khrushchev, who was himself Ukrainian. In his autobiography (which was required reading for me during school), he called it his "birthday present" to Ukraine.
Endymio
Posts: 2,669 +2,701
When Ukraine can produce even one of the bodies of the "400 assassins" they killed who they claim Russia sent after Zelensky, they can speak. Or perhaps you'd like to discuss the "Snake Island massacre", in which all the dead victims later turned up alive. Or Ukraine's claim that the West had "only hours" to prevent Russia from intentionally detonating the Zaporizhzhia nuclear plant. Or their claim that Russia "poisoned our delegates to the peace talks" ... but that those delegates were "too busy" to seek medical attention, or even to have a simple blood test to determine what they'd been given.
My favorite was the attack on an "active maternity hospital", that lacked both furniture and medical equipment ... and filled with lightly wounded "victims" who conveniently waited until the Western reporters arrived with cameras before stumbling out of the rubble. Bellingcat unsurprisingly chose not to examine the forensic evidence of that staged attack. Had they, they might have found this:
Ukraine Maternity Hospital Shelling: A False Flag?
Assessing the alleged Russian strike on the Mariupol maternity hospital
technofog.substack.com
Axle Grease
Posts: 306 +262
I'm glad you noticed that the referendum conducted in Ukraine's Eastern border provinces was an obvious sham. The footage was taken by Russian state media (Channel One) and meant for a Russian audience. Do you think anyone left in Russia has the presence of mind to notice the blank forms?
Endymio
Posts: 2,669 +2,701
Never seen one of these elections in person, have you? People are told to place the form in the appropriate ballot box: one box for yes, the other for no. The checks on the back are a backup, which many people never bother to fill in. When the boxes are opened, each box is counted separately ... which is why the woman in the clip isn't bothering to read each form individually. Surely you're intelligent enough to realize that, if the separatists wished to generate fake ballots, they'd have been sure the forms appeared valid before allowing them to be filmed.
I can't personally speak to the level of support for separatism today. However, as of a few years ago, I know for a fact that in Donbas it varied from 50 to 75%, and in Crimea it was easily 95% pro-Russian. Has six months of war changed that? I don't know ... but this food-for-fools Ukrainian propaganda clip certainly isn't evidence one way or another.
Axle Grease
Posts: 306 +262
Yes, twice. The process is 1) show one's ID. A worker then crosses off your name on a list and you get handed a ballot. 2) Go behind a screen and tick the appropriate box/circle. 3) Fold the ballot in half and stuff it into a box before exiting the room; the box labelled with one's region. Really, Endymic? Checkboxes used as backup only? That's a good one. Say.... what are those people doing in the background?
hwertz
Posts: 516 +273
(I'm ambivalent on pulling apps or not, Apple has done it and Google hasn't. But...)
Given Apple has pulled out of doing business in Russia, they owe the Russian gov't nothing.
Given Apple has pulled out of doing business in Russia, they owe the Russian gov't nothing.
hwertz
Posts: 516 +273
Just to point out, Patrick Lancaster has videos going back to 2014 pushing for Russia to retake this territory. He has a STRONG pro-Russia slant in every video he posts, and has even gone on ride-alongs with the Russian military. His videos are not objective, and I would not take anything away from watching 10 minutes of these clips any more than I would take anything away from watching 10 minutes of Fox News.
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Endymio
Posts: 2,669 +2,701
And CNN, MSNBC, and most other US outlets have stories going back to 2014 pushing equally hard in favor of Ukraine. By your logic, we should discount all their reporting as well.
The situation in Luhansk is certainly a gray area, but in Donetsk and especially Crimea it's a different matter. I personally was in Crimea shortly before their referendum. After the 2014 coup, you literally could not find a single person who didn't wish -- loudly and fervently -- to rejoin Russia. US reports of Russian troops forcing frightened people to vote in favor at gunpoint were absurd propaganda, period. A 98% in-favor vote isn't surprising at all.
Now, if Luhansk is reporting a 96% in-favor vote to rejoin Russia, then either the separatists are stacking ballots, or the anti-Russian citizens of the region aren't voting. Sure. That still doesn't change the fact that a majority of the people in the region are ethnic Russians, who consider themselves "Rus", not Ukrainian, and have been fighting a civil war for a decade to rejoin Russia -- in large part due to Ukraine's brutul repression of ethnic minorities in the country. Are you aware that President Poroshenko -- the so-called "Butcher of Donbas" -- used to drive around the country in vehicles plasted with enormous placards of his hero, the infamous Nazi collaborator Stepan Bandera? Did you realize why the initial Russian effort focused so heavily on Mariupol, and the "Azov-Stol Mill"? If you research a bit about the Azov Brigade which made its home there - a swastika-bearing paramilitary group sanctioned by both the EU and the US Congress for its acts of terror against the ethnic Russian Jews of Donbas -- you might understand why.
Bp968
Posts: 277 +195
Its not him getting you killed, its putin/russia. If a bully beats your friend all the time and he finally fights back so the bully retaliates and beats up his friends (like you) its not your friends fault that you got beat up, its the bully.
Giving in to the bully simply invites more beatings.
If the bully wants to pull the pin on the grenade thats his call, but he gets blown up just the same.
Bp968
Posts: 277 +195
Lol. 98% is "not surprising? In what democratically legit election or poll has anything gotten 98%? You could have a referendum that simply says "do you want everyone in the country to each get a free 1,000,000 dollars!" And you'd get 10 or 15% vote no just for the "memes".
Those 98-99% landslide "victories" happen almost entirely due to dictators pride and arrogance. If they wanted believable they would report numbers more like 55-60%.
But hey, if you want to keep swallowing that whole "nazi" pill you go right ahead. Though I figured you might find it at least a little odd that ukraine has had zero issues gettinf volunteers to face what was supposed to be the 2nd most power military the the world and the 2nd most powerful military in the world has had to resort to using convicts. First they tried money and no one bit, now he's trying forced mobilization and everyones running for their lives.
As for those places so intent on joining russia, well their mostly empty of their previous occupants, who fled, were killed by russia as it systematically pounded their homes into rubble or were conscripted to use as untrained cannon fodder for the russian military.
I'd say anyone looking in from the outside with even a tiny bit of common sense would *much* rather join the EU with ukraine then be pinned under russia/putins boot and be "liberated".
Honestly its usually easy to tell the "bad guy" from the "good guy" in a conflict like this with one simple question: Does the country in question have to lock people *in* or lock them *out*? If it has to lock its own people in, well there is probably a fairly good reason they want out.
Endymio
Posts: 2,669 +2,701
Bad example. Anyone who has the sense God gave a peanut would vote against everyone getting a "free" million dollars. Did you skip economics entirely?
By your logic, all the unanimous and near-unanimous votes in Congress are proof the US is run by a dictatorial regime. You have to understand the situation in Crimea at the time. The population there is almost entirely ethnic Russian, yet the pro-Russian government in Kiev had just been violently overthrown, and the new President was promising to "enact revenge" against any and all Russians ... a promise he soon made good on. The people of Crimea were in a panic -- I was there shortly before the referendum, and I saw a line of Crimean citizens more than two miles long outside the Russian consulate there: people desperate to apply for Russian residency. And none of this, of course, even takes into account the systemic issues with Ukraine: incredibly high corruption, and an economy so shattered that 50% of all transactions were occurring on the black market, and millions of Ukrainians illegally crossing into Russia just to find work.
Educate yourself:
"The UN has urged Ukraine to take a “compassionate and humane” approach to the martial law after reports of Ukrainian men defying orders to stay and attempting to cross into neighbouring countries to claim asylum....Men of conscription age, aged 18 to 60, were banned from leaving Ukraine after the Russian invasion but there have been multiple reports of Ukrainian men trying to cross into Hungary, Poland and Romania...Ukrainian authorities [are] checking everyone trying to cross to ensure no men with Ukrainian nationality are passing through.
You may find this interesting as well:
"Ukrainian forces track down, arrest citizens for pro-Russian views online....Ukrainian security forces tracked down and arrested citizens under new anti-collaboration laws that criminalize [the] public voicing support for the Russian side....Zelenskyy has even stripped two SBU generals of their rank, accusing them of treason. A “registry of collaborators” is being compiled and will be released to the public,..."
Over the weekend, the Associated Press reported Ukraine’s SBU security service had arrested hundreds of alleged violators of these new anti-collaboration laws, including about 400 people in the Kharkiv region alone....
Ukraine cracks down on 'traitors' helping Russian troops
Ukrainian authorities are cracking down on anyone suspected of aiding Russian troops under laws enacted by Ukraine’s parliament and signed by President Volodymyr Zelenskyy after the Feb. 24 invasion.
apnews.com
Endymio
Posts: 2,669 +2,701
"Ukraine bans all male citizens ages 18 to 60 from leaving the country..."
""In particular, it is forbidden for men aged 18-60, Ukraine citizens, to leave the borders of Ukraine," a statement from the service said, according to CNN. "This regulation will remain in effect for the period of the legal regime of martial law. We ask the citizens to take this information into consideration.""
Reports: Ukraine bans all male citizens ages 18 to 60 from leaving the country
According to reports, male citizens ages 18 to 60 are prohibited from leaving Ukraine under martial law as Russia presses its full-scale invasion.
www.usatoday.com
Axle Grease
Posts: 306 +262
"Ukraine bans all male citizens ages 18 to 60 from leaving the country..."
""In particular, it is forbidden for men aged 18-60, Ukraine citizens, to leave the borders of Ukraine," a statement from the service said, according to CNN. "This regulation will remain in effect for the period of the legal regime of martial law. We ask the citizens to take this information into consideration.""
Reports: Ukraine bans all male citizens ages 18 to 60 from leaving the country
According to reports, male citizens ages 18 to 60 are prohibited from leaving Ukraine under martial law as Russia presses its full-scale invasion.www.usatoday.com
Is Russia being invaded?
Endymio
Posts: 2,669 +2,701
Was the US being invaded when it attacked Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Serbia, Libya, Grenada, Yemen, or a half-dozen other nations?
hwertz
Posts: 516 +273
I do wish there was a good source of objective coverage. *Usually* when there's some topic where the US "old media" is going to put ridiculous amounts of spin on it, I can fall back to BBC coverage. But that is not going to help in this case.
The other part that makes it difficult in this case is Ukraine and Russia using largely the same military hardware, so the same video clip can be shown with both sides saying it was the other one doing X, Y, and Z, and it can't be debunked based on what kind of hardware is in the video.
(Edit: I thought I'd posted this like a day or 2 ago, only to find it sitting at the bottom with a "Post" button when I came back today.)
True, and that someone is you. Here we are only 3 days later.... And now this:I'm not the one openly advocating escalation, even if it means nuclear war, now am I?
I truly don't understand why, in this age of easily-obtainable information, certain people delight in remaining ignorant. Is it a security belief for you? 15 years ago, Putin was by far the most popular democratically-elected leader in the world. He lost a great deal of support over that period-- but the war in Ukraine has so far boosted his popularity, not reduced it.
Why Vladimir Putin still has widespread support in Russia
There’s no question the Russian population is subject to a Russian media largely loyal to the Kremlin. But that doesn’t mean Vladimir Putin lacks genuine supporters.theconversation.com
Six Months On, Most Russians Still Back the War in Ukraine
Polls suggest that more than three-quarters of Russians continue to back Putin's war efforts.time.com
Putin Didn’t Think He Would Fool Anyone
The sham referendum in Ukraine was for domestic consumption.
www.theatlantic.com
"There’s something mysterious about the results. Not whether they were a sham; they clearly were. (The words referendum and election should never be used to describe a process in which men with guns knock on your door and then force you to fill out a ballot while they watch.) What’s mysterious is the scale of the sham victory. According to the official figures released by the Kremlin, the percentages of the four regions voting to join Russia were as follows: 99, 98, 93, and 87."
If you believe that was the proper way to run an "election". Not to mention the numbers Putin and Russia are claiming, you are even bigger Russian apologist and scammer than I thought.
Axle Grease
Posts: 306 +262
Had the U.S. drafted men to fight in those wars you might've come closer to having a reasonable but-what-about-ism. The Ukraine is a sovereign democracy and its borders are clearly defined ( and includes Crimea ). Even Russia's president turned autocratic thug said Russia had long accepted Ukraine's current borders. The Ukrainian government conscripted men to defend its sovereign democracy against being annexed by Russia, not to go annex Russia. That is why your moral equivocation is ****.
hwertz
Posts: 516 +273
Indeed. I support Ukraine in this conflict, however I do find these kinds of actions troubling from either side. Hopefully, they focus on those who were calling in shell positions and so on (actually collaborating) and give those who were just voicing their opinion a slap on the wrist and let them go.Bad example. Anyone who has the sense God gave a peanut would vote against everyone getting a "free" million dollars. Did you skip economics entirely?
By your logic, all the unanimous and near-unanimous votes in Congress are proof the US is run by a dictatorial regime. You have to understand the situation in Crimea at the time. The population there is almost entirely ethnic Russian, yet the pro-Russian government in Kiev had just been violently overthrown, and the new President was promising to "enact revenge" against any and all Russians ... a promise he soon made good on. The people of Crimea were in a panic -- I was there shortly before the referendum, and I saw a line of Crimean citizens more than two miles long outside the Russian consulate there: people desperate to apply for Russian residency. And none of this, of course, even takes into account the systemic issues with Ukraine: incredibly high corruption, and an economy so shattered that 50% of all transactions were occurring on the black market, and millions of Ukrainians illegally crossing into Russia just to find work.
Educate yourself:
"The UN has urged Ukraine to take a “compassionate and humane” approach to the martial law after reports of Ukrainian men defying orders to stay and attempting to cross into neighbouring countries to claim asylum....Men of conscription age, aged 18 to 60, were banned from leaving Ukraine after the Russian invasion but there have been multiple reports of Ukrainian men trying to cross into Hungary, Poland and Romania...Ukrainian authorities [are] checking everyone trying to cross to ensure no men with Ukrainian nationality are passing through.
You may find this interesting as well:
"Ukrainian forces track down, arrest citizens for pro-Russian views online....Ukrainian security forces tracked down and arrested citizens under new anti-collaboration laws that criminalize [the] public voicing support for the Russian side....Zelenskyy has even stripped two SBU generals of their rank, accusing them of treason. A “registry of collaborators” is being compiled and will be released to the public,..."
Over the weekend, the Associated Press reported Ukraine’s SBU security service had arrested hundreds of alleged violators of these new anti-collaboration laws, including about 400 people in the Kharkiv region alone....
Ukraine cracks down on 'traitors' helping Russian troops
Ukrainian authorities are cracking down on anyone suspected of aiding Russian troops under laws enacted by Ukraine’s parliament and signed by President Volodymyr Zelenskyy after the Feb. 24 invasion.
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