Apple updates MacBook Pro line with Sandy Bridge, Intel's Light Peak

[TrekExpert]

@Whoaman

I believe that you only gave two advantages that macs have over PC in you comment. Resale value and reliability. I would definitely have to disagree with mac being reliable. I use macs quite often and they have given me nothing but trouble. On the point of resale value, the reason why macs have such a good resale value is because people who by macs don't care about the specs or they wouldn't be buying a mac in the first place. Therefore people don't care if they are buying a new mac or not.

 

[lawfer]

Whoaman said:

lawfer said:

You, sir, are delusional.

There is absolutely NOTHING of what you've mentioned that justifies spending $2500 on a laptop computer. Read this, nothing.

There must be a lot of delusional people out there because Mac laptops are selling very very well and their customers are very satisfied (for years). And then they sell them second hand for a premium.

I'll say it again though it will probably fall on deaf ears... there is a heck of a lot more to value than a sticker price. If that's all one sees than I think the delusion most definitely lies there.

If you enjoy dealing with umpteen issues only to end up with a relatively worthless pile of plastic at the end, then by all means go the Win\Generic laptop route - at least you won't have paid as much upfront at the till and that seems to make a lot of arguably delusional people temporarily happier. However, if you spend a lot of time on your computer and that time is of value to you then Apple's laptop platform is a bargain.

The simple truth is that once you do the math on even just the resale value of Mac vs winPc, you are already ahead of the game. And yet there are many many other real world factors to take into consideration when looking at the true TCO and at this time the Mac wins most of them easily.

Believe it or not I am not a mac fanboy and I take issue with some of the directions Apple is taking But I have been servicing numberless clients on all the different hardware\software platforms for decades and this is what the results bare out. If I were going to be self-serving then I would not be writing this because I make most of my bread on the endless lineup of unhappy winPC\laptop owners knocking on my door to fix the endless list of mind-numbing problems they are having. All this downtime is costly for them and costly to get fixed. Taking into consideration the percentage of mac owners to winpc owners, I can estimate with a fair degree of accuracy that a winPC is more than six times as likely to end up in my shop compared to a Mac.

Sometimes I think that it is precisely this "make work" aspect of the winPC industry that is paradoxically behind its "success". Kind of like Ford and Chrysler - most of the profit comes from fixing them.

Luckily for me there are enough sticker tag worshipers out there (and on this site apparently) to keep filling my pockets.

Thanks for all the business.

(bring on all the empty arguments, rhetoric and name calling...)

Sticker tag worshipers? If you read my first comment, you would realize I actually like Mac computers. What I don't like is Apple's highly memetic business practices. Now, you say Macs are more reliable than PCs, and that is extremely subjective statement.

Your logic is so flawed, it is laughable. You do know Windows currently holds 89% of the OS market, and that Macs only hold 5%, correct? Your argument is based on the fact that you, and only you (and wherever it is that you live), have experienced a higher surge of PC customers due to their systems' issues. You then conclude that because of that, you consider PC as more unreliable than Macs, knowing very well the market share difference, and the the specific location in which you are basing your personal "findings" on. How is this possible, sir? How can you conclude such a thing, knowing that mathematically you will always get more PC related issues than Macs, as the amount of PC users is substantially higher? Oh lord.

The reason why there's no justification as to why you should spend $2500 is not because of reliability; customers don't think about TCO, they only think about the immediate benefit of the purchase (and for those who do think ahead, they'd just order AppleCare). If we did, spending money on products would be a tedious effort (even more than it already is, with such limited funds). The reason why spending $2500 is unjustifiable is because of this: option. Macs are NOT more reliable than PCs, neither it is the other way around. There are more powerful options in comparison that you would get for $2500, and this price range alone, should assure you that the reliability of the product shall be as lasting as a Mac, while retaining better specs, therefore, any "reliability" argument is nullified when you consider that the second option is just as reliable but more powerful. Now, if your other argument is about customer loyalty (or resale value as you call it), then my argument goes back to how Apple brainwashes (in a way) people to buy their products NOT based on specifications and/or build quality, but based on, you know, the brand.

My girlfriend works for AT&T, and they recently released the HTC Inspire 4G (which she got). That phone has a 1GHZ processor, a 8 megapixel, dual-LED flash camera, a 4.3 inch screen, and comes with Froyo 2.2 (later upgradeable to 2.3). It's also made of an aluminum unibody case, that's sturdy and reliable. And it's worth 50 bucks with a 2 year contract (online). How can you explain to me, why should I pay 150 dollars more for an inferior phone, this being the iPhone? Because its Apple? Because its more "reliable"? No, sir. I don't have anything against personal choice, after all it's your money. But when I see Apple luring customers to their perfect "brand" of underpowered products at exorbitant prices, it really just makes me puke. And that sentiment still applies to the computer world.

 

[Whoaman]

lawfer said:
"You do know Windows currently holds 89% of the OS market, and that Macs only hold 5%..."

Yes. Perhaps you misunderstood the "Taking into consideration the percentage of mac owners to winpc owners..." part.

Some figures: Research suggests Windows to have 80-90% and OSX 6-10% depending on where you look. I based my calculations on Windows 86% OSX 7%, about 12wpc/1m. My ratio of clients over the last 4 years is roughly 2846wpc/39m , about 73wpc/1m.

Feel free to correct my math but it indicates to me about a 6 to 1 ratio on a LEVEL PLAYING FIELD. Of course this is a rough estimate and there are other factors to consider in the mix. Regardless, from my personal experience this is a very telling figure. I have 6x as many win users having serious enough trouble to feel the need to take the time and money to have me fix their system. I can also tell you that the ratio of repeat customers is much much higher on the WinPC side as well.

Much of this boils down to the fact that Apple makes both the hardware and the software and at the moment are doing a very good job on both. Apple also continually rates the highest in support. It would be a big mistake to underestimate the additional value passed on to the average consumer from this potent combination.

When one looks at the minimal hardware spec sheet alone (ie. the big 4 -> cpu\gpu\ram\drive) and compares around then the Mac sticker price can appear underwhelming at best. But this is only one part of many to factor into the overall value and TCO passed onto the consumer.

Lawfer, I appreciate your arguments, but all factors for all big companies being roughly equal, at the end of the day brand-loyalty must be earned. ALL companies do their best to "brainwash" customers into buying into their products. One could easily argue that all sensory impressions that enter through the five sense doors continually "wash our brains". If that brain is washed by lasting happiness then that's about the best we could ask for don't you think?

Apple's brain-washing is proving to result in the most happy satisfied customers at this point in time in its field of endeavour. Some of the reasons for this I have provided for you.

A lasting looks good, feels good relationship is more valuable$ then the big 4 (cpu\gpu\ram\drive). There is a tangible cost to providing this for a consumer. Apple is getting this right.

As an ubergeek I'm happy to run my show off of a hacked old 25$ Linksys WRT54G linux-infused router. But for the average consumer, Macs offer the best value.

 

[Whoaman]

TrekExpert said:
@Whoaman

I believe that you only gave two advantages that macs have over PC in you comment. Resale value and reliability.

In no particular order:

1. Resale

2. Support - only need to go to one company for support and it is the highest-rated in the business

3. Integration - hardware and software engineered to work well together

4. Design and Build - other manufacturers continually struggle to produce as-good designs and they are typically MORE costly then the equivalent mac when they do.

5. OS X - Rock-solid, painless-to-upgrade\update, fully-professional, unix-based, crapware-free, loaded with powerful great apps (Time Machine, iLife etc.), painlessly fast install\uninstall of applications (typically just drag and drop), highly intuitive interface (constantly copied by others)...

6. Flexibility - runs Windows exceedingly well with Boot Camp if one has the need (ex. SQL Server, certain games). PCs can run OS X but it requires considerable technical knowledge and has caveats.

On the average this all adds up to a class-leading experience and lower TCO compared to the winPC. For a great many, Macs will provide the best ROI.

 

[lawfer]

Whoaman said:

lawfer said:
"You do know Windows currently holds 89% of the OS market, and that Macs only hold 5%..."

Yes. Perhaps you misunderstood the "Taking into consideration the percentage of mac owners to winpc owners..." part.

Some figures: Research suggests Windows to have 80-90% and OSX 6-10% depending on where you look. I based my calculations on Windows 86% OSX 7%, about 12wpc/1m. My ratio of clients over the last 4 years is roughly 2846wpc/39m , about 73wpc/1m.

Feel free to correct my math but it indicates to me about a 6 to 1 ratio on a LEVEL PLAYING FIELD. Of course this is a rough estimate and there are other factors to consider in the mix. Regardless, from my personal experience this is a very telling figure. I have 6x as many win users having serious enough trouble to feel the need to take the time and money to have me fix their system. I can also tell you that the ratio of repeat customers is much much higher on the WinPC side as well.

Much of this boils down to the fact that Apple makes both the hardware and the software and at the moment are doing a very good job on both. Apple also continually rates the highest in support. It would be a big mistake to underestimate the additional value passed on to the average consumer from this potent combination.

When one looks at the minimal hardware spec sheet alone (ie. the big 4 -> cpu\gpu\ram\drive) and compares around then the Mac sticker price can appear underwhelming at best. But this is only one part of many to factor into the overall value and TCO passed onto the consumer.

Lawfer, I appreciate your arguments, but all factors for all big companies being roughly equal, at the end of the day brand-loyalty must be earned. ALL companies do their best to "brainwash" customers into buying into their products. One could easily argue that all sensory impressions that enter through the five sense doors continually "wash our brains". If that brain is washed by lasting happiness then that's about the best we could ask for don't you think?

Apple's brain-washing is proving to result in the most happy satisfied customers at this point in time in its field of endeavour. Some of the reasons for this I have provided for you.

A lasting looks good, feels good relationship is more valuable$ then the big 4 (cpu\gpu\ram\drive). There is a tangible cost to providing this for a consumer. Apple is getting this right.

As an ubergeek I'm happy to run my show off of a hacked old 25$ Linksys WRT54G linux-infused router. But for the average consumer, Macs offer the best value.

Again, your (unnecessary) numbers, and your ratios are meaningless when, like I mentioned, you are BOUND to receive a higher percentage of PC customers, as the amount of PC owner is substantially higher in ANY place, mathematically that is. Any use of personal findings (that were based on local, and highly subjective data) to state a fact, is just as bad as the fact I'm trying to point out with my argument. (Which I shall explain below.)

You see, you seem to misunderstand my argument. My argument, in itself, is that people do not choose the brand for the reasons you are attempting to point out; they are actually choosing the brand for the... brand. They don't care about possible system issues, performance, specifications, TCO, insurance, etc. They all care about having the brand. Which leads me to my secondary argument which is that Apple uses this as a way to sell products at exorbitant prices. There's absolutely nothing wrong with customer loyalty, which is why I said I have no problems with personal choice. But Apple making owning Apple products some sort of feat is just ludicrous.

Macs, to them, do not offer a better value, which is my problem. To them a Mac is simply superior because it is a Mac. They do not see what you seem to point out. They simply do not. And I know, because I've dealt with that. I can show you in many ways how having a PC is more convenient than having a Mac (repair-wise). You could actually obtain parts for your computer; you are ten times more likely to find a technician; since Windows hold 89% of the market, OEMs tend to produce and ship millions of units, which alternatively obliges them to invest on warranty centers, making the repair/exchange even easier and just as accessible as with Macs, etc. Not to mention that general software support for Macs is highly limited, whereas with Windows is the total opposite. Just like you can find issues with Windows by being the majority, just as well you can find benefits that might leverage that.

Research shows that more than 10 percent of the world population (600+ million) own computers (hell, Facebook has about 90% of that 600+ million). When you see that number, and you realize that more than 85% of those are Windows computer users, you HAVE to recognize the value in getting a PC (some which I exemplified above; don't even get me into gaming). But for the life of me, I can't see the logic in which you say people who don't even know or care about computers specs, should spend $2500 because to them it is of higher value. Well, if you call elitism and showing off, parts of "higher value" (which in a sociological context it wouldn't be too incorrect), then by all means yes. But Apple doesn't even manufacture their own products for Christ sake, Apple is simply a designer. Asus is a superior company (on the quality side), but you don't see them selling as much, do you? I assure you that if we take an Asus laptop computer, paint it white, paste a fake Apple logo on the back, and sell it for $5000 dollars, people would blindly buy it. And they wouldn't even tell a difference, besides the fact that, you know, it will perform better (but that doesn't matter, right?). And it's OKAY if it doesn't matter to the average consumer, but it's simply not okay when they simply don't know the difference. Which is, indeed, my argument.

 

[ViperSniper2]

@Whoaman
I'll forgive you your arrogant nature (it runs in the CrApple Family, like iCrAppleholism), but your ignorance of the rest of the computing world and what competitors offer as being inferior, is abominable at best!

The affects of your iNazi training in RDF (Reality Distortion Field) generation from years of Steve iHitler Jobs Infomercial Marketing is phenomenal. But... hardly anything to brag about. In fact it so permeates your being and personality, I doubt you have any friends other than other HARD CORE Mac Addicts and fans of it's 1984 style Thought Police mind control tactics. All those that refuse to believe iMacs i7's had any issues or that even the last OS-X release wasn't/isn't Aryan Bred perfect in every way.

Even though you most likely were one of those that got an iMac i7 that was shipped with a broken screen (& repeatedly returned), freaky hard drives that died or that wouldn't even boot out of box (also repeatedly returned many times). hmm... Something about corrupt security chip firmware rejecting FLASH, that NO WINDOWS PC has ever had a problem with and that with over 10 times the distribution and also having CrAppletastic Quicktime Framework along with Adobe FLASH installed!

.....hmmm interesting CrApple rejects FLASH Plugin, Complains about having the Best Photo Manipulation Program on Earth, yet still keeps Quicktime (2nd worst security plugin on the planet - while FLASH has widest distribution w/ fewest security bugs ever) embedded in every OS and Multimedia product they make. A framework that should have died w/ Newtons and OS9! ...but is still in the slowest and worst.... (as well as freakiest) media mis-management program on the planet..... yeah.... iFreakingSteinTunes!

Of course we won't mention (again) the ultra thin Cheap recycled aluminum beer can on MacBook Airs that dent if you breathe too hard on 'em. Or the fact that iPhone 4 designers weren't satisfied giving you just one piece of glass to break... so they made the back glass as well. Not only glass, but very thin glass at that! Why? ....because all you iCrAppleholic failures would rather have a phone that looks nice only when new, than a phone that can actually send and receive calls. Yes.... something about it blocking radio signals and it being some fake thin alumino-silicate glass. Well ya know... just a Cheap knock-off Chinese CrApple Brand!
btw... Real Gorilla Glass is only made in Harrodsburg, Kentucky (USA) and in Shizuoka, Japan.

Oh but CrApple's Steve Nixon Jobs is heard today (not tomorrow for he'll hopefully be all comfy and burried w/ YOUR Billions of Dollars in the ground), saying "But... I'm not a Thief". Yet.... that's exactly what he said he was in a video and how proud he was to steal Zerox's PARC desktop UI. Then he takes it all further and steals from his own 3rd party software vendors along w/ GPLv2 & 3 software he steals and then bans from running on any Apple products in it's original Open Source coded state. Safari... anyone? Yes... CrApple only borrowed KHTML Browser Technology and set up a WebKit w/o contributing back most of what they developed on their own for Safari. But who cares.... lol... it still remains the CrAppleliest Browser in the WebKit family, that Google Chrome excels over in less than 2 years w/ now far greater distribution. NO! CrApple neither wrote WebKit Application Framework or the Browser layout (all KDE) either. Just more stealing from the Open Source Community they've been doing all along and NOT ONCE giving them credit for it! Microsoft at least does that to a degree and they do allow and give back GPLv2 & 3 licensed software w/o crying about how much they have contributed! lol.. near ZERO!!! ^_^

 

[Whoaman]

ViperSniper2, you really have it out for Apple.

I agree that Apple can improve on what they take out of open source land and are over-protective in general. But it would be very easy to argue that Microsoft and many other big name companies in this business are no better and often worse.

The rest of your comments I personally don't find relavant. The vast majority of parts in ALL computers made today are not made by the designers and too much of it is manufactured in China - we all know this. A substantial part of what drives the Chinafication is people who expect to pay nothing for a highly technical powerful device that can offer much more in return.

Also there is plenty of room for improvement industry wide (Apple included) at the software and hardware level. But this is not my point.

As for the arrogance part, well.... I have a view based on a ton of hands-on and customer experience that time and again proves itself out but I'm open and interested in hearing and evaluating all views. I'm not sure I see the arrogance in that. The universe is complex and time is limited; I have presented what I consider to be the key reasons for Apple's success and why in my experience Apple machines are priced appropriately and overall provide the best TCO and ROI for most consumers and many professions as well.

Lawfer feels my personal statistics are not valid and that the main thrust of Apple's success in getting people to pay more comes from marketing\branding genius alone. There is no doubt that Apple is very good at branding - I agree with you there. I also agree that the typical consumer is undereducated when it comes to spending their consumer dollar on most things they buy. This includes buying badly designed winPCs because of the big4 and because they were cheap. This is a large part as to why the world is such a mess - "ignorance" is arguably the biggest battle we all need to face within ourselves and others.

The parts argument can be seen from many angles. Hardware speaking I don't personally find it any more difficult to find and replace parts in macbooks or macs. They are just as standard or non-standard and available as any PC.

Lawfer, I live in a very Mac active place and I am quite well known as a "go-to-guy" for Macs. When I average out all the probabilities I can come up with it bears out that my statistics likely are within 10-15% accuracy. Even in worst case the results are still overwhelming. I also have the anecdotal evidence of dealing with a huge swath of customers. The end result is that the majority of mac users and clients I meet have a good relationship with their macs, don't feel they we're ripped off, don't feel the need to buy a new one every 2-3 years, and get good money for them when they do sell them. Unfortunately it is almost diametrically opposite on the winPC side. Satisfaction with your purchase is a very important factor and with Apple it goes beyond just marketing and the big4 components. To make innovative good products and support them properly requires that a company make a profit.

If you aren't an ubergeek and enjoy purchasing a computer full of adware, having to get support from Microsoft and the hardware vendor who will often playoff against each other until you go insane - that is if you can reach them at all, Windows activation silliness, virii, crappy battery life (unless it runs on an Atom), scouring for bios updates to fix the inevitable motherboard issues, reinstalling Windows every year and a half because it "inexplicably" seems to be running so much slower now and finally, prefer paying me to get it working properly for you because you don't have the time, patience, or interest in fixing your own car nor wasting your time trying to get Microsoft or that hardware vendor to do it with 40-hour phone marathon runarounds in Hindi .... ...... .....

then winPC is for you my friend! But don't expect to save any money. You certainly won't get much when you try to sell it a couple of years later.

 

[Whoaman]

http://www.macrumors.com/2010/03/11/apple-dominates-consumer-reports-tech-support-ratings/

For non-ubergeeks (most of the world), easily accessible and functional support is important for something as complex as a computer. For a mac you only need to go to one company and they so happen to be the standard barer.

Having the best of the big4 crammed into a plastic shell monstrosity that runs for 2 hours on battery and "features" many of the problems listed above is very likely not a happy recipe for most users.

A sticker price and a cursory spec sheet can be utterly deceptive because it represents a minuscule part of the real-world equation. Furthermore, supporting the undervaluation of laptops and computers only hurts us all in the long run (manufacturer, consumer and environment).

TCO, ROI and PS (purchase satisfaction) are very much in Apple's favour at the moment in the majority of use cases. Apple computers are NOT overpriced. The simple truth in this industry is that for most users you can expect to get exactly what you pay for.

 

[ViperSniper2]

So I see your are incapable of defending the closed generic product nature (like Steve's Wardrobe) of mass produced cloned non-customizable hardware and software Apple has sold you? Where everybody and everyone's hardware and OS looks just like some one model one size fits all, factory replicated zombies!

So unlike their "Think Different" slogan..... eh? You know that's one of the best parts of having an Open Platform where Customization is more the norm for anyone with a brain and the desire to Be and Actually Create a Different Experience" from everyone else's Dell, HP or Mac computing box. But even they are more customizable and give users/owner/operators more CHOICE in their OS and hardware. After all the reality is that all CrApple products are like game consoles.... CLOSED BOX non-upgradable or modifiable systems. That's the primary reason that Android has now obliterated iOS phones into a declining user base. You can expect that same thing to happen in Tablet Market, demonstrated with these numbers on phones:
Read more: Research: Android held 53% of smartphone OS market in Q4 - FierceMobileIT http://www.fiercemobileit.com/story...rtphone-os-market-q4/2011-02-01#ixzz1FCtbkfJc
While CrApple iPhone 4 is basically stagnant in the market like OS-X Desktops and actually losing some market share. Only sales to over pampered bottle fed babies are only keeping them even. Ya know.... those that have been previously addicted and already have the Stamp of the Beast (Steve iHitler) already on their foreheads. That's no competition for either Windows or Android!

Freedom and Openness are what people really want. Most people are no dumbies and they know exactly what they're paying for and getting. If they aren't getting it.... they aren't buying it again. Choice and the customization of what you purchase isn't to be found in a CONTROLLED CLOSED BOX SYSTEM like the only thing CrApple OFFERS!

For you iCrAppleholics, it's all too much like standing in line in the military waiting to receive your Government Issue razor. It doesn't matter if you got sensitive skin or want a different scent in your shave cream, you only get what they give you! ....and that's a croak of shizt!

btw... you might want to check the return rate on HP's and Dell's and compare it to CrApple's. Oh.. yeah that information is not released by Apple ever. Only when it's good. But I can tell you that iMac's, MacBooks and iPhone 4's see more time at the Genius Bar than the top 4 PC and top 4 Phone makers have coming in for service. For you guys... you're guaranteed to be taking your iPhone 4 in for a battery change. Heaven forbid your SSD goes bad in your MacBook Air or you're in for a whole world of hurt!

Run Windows 7 on your Mac? Yeah most Mac owners do these days. In fact browser web data has Mac owners running Windows about the same as those running OS-X. Games on Mac? Forget it..... DirectX owns that World and you know it! Apple doesn't support it directly either. The only things missing on Windows running on Macs, is the full speed of the OS. Come on... don't tell us that lie about Windows running faster on Bootcamp than on a Windows PC with same hardware specs. We know that a bunch of bull. It's just a hypervisor running a simulated bios on a virtualized environment and even with hardware access it's still limited. How do I know? ....a friend with a Mac with virtually the same specs and ran several Windows games. The difference was night and day! haha...... Office runs faster on OS-X than in Bootcamp on Windows.....and that's NOT because the Mac version is better. It's because it's running as a virtual machine is not natively running directly on the hardware!

 

[wizardB]

Gotta love it now Apples using Intels broken chipset this has the makings of great comedy!!

 

[wizardB]

OSX is junk trial-ware just like Windows except they charge you big bucks for the service packs just so you feel special.......

 

[wizardB]

Whoaman said:
Apple products are much more than just a hardware spec sheet. They come fully baked with a wonderful headache-free "ultimate version" OS and an excellent array of useful well-featured well-integrated applications tailored to run very well with it's surrounding hardware.

No driver issues.
No virus issues.
No junk\trial\crapware.
High-quality build.
The most copied but never matched or exceeded design in the business.

This adds up to years of relatively trouble-free productive use for its users and a high resale value at the end.

OSX is junk trial-ware just like Windows except they charge you big bucks for the service packs just so you feel special....
Add up the real COO and the Apple machines are a bargain.