Decades-old Windows systems are still running trains, printers, and hospitals

zohaibahd

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The big picture: There have been 15 Windows versions released over the last three decades, but even today, some of Microsoft's oldest works continue to hum away in the background. All over the world, ancient versions of Windows are still keeping elevators moving, trains running, and even government systems functioning.

A new BBC report uncovers some of the strangest real-world cases where outdated versions of Windows are still powering critical systems. One example is a hospital elevator in New York City, spotted this year, which still runs on Windows XP; the final version of that OS lost extended support from Microsoft in April 2019. Some ATMs run even older versions, powered not just by Windows XP but also Windows NT, which launched way back in 1993.

As it turns out, XP's stability and deep integration with proprietary control systems make it ideal for setups that haven't changed in years. Moreover, an ATM technician in New Jersey told the BBC that the cost of upgrading these systems is steep, with new hardware, regulatory hurdles, and custom software rewriting all adding up.

Germany had its own Windows throwback moment last year when Deutsche Bahn posted a job listing that required knowledge of MS-DOS and Windows 3.11. These relics still power display systems in a handful of trains, again largely because replacing them would mean ripping out hardware that could otherwise last decades. Then there's San Francisco's Muni Metro system, which, until recently, needed someone to pop a floppy disk into a DOS-based train control system to get it running each morning.

In San Diego, massive LightJet printers still produce museum-grade photo prints using Windows 2000. John Watts, who runs the machines, says upgrading would cost tens of thousands of dollars in new software licenses. He did say he "can't stand" Windows machines, but they're the only way to run the printers.

Perhaps the most extreme case is the US Department of Veterans Affairs. Doctors there have been using the Computerized Patient Record System (CPRS) to pull out patient records. It was introduced in 1997 but runs on top of an even older platform known as VistA, which dates all the way back to 1985 and was originally built for MS-DOS. And since it's DOS, it means that doctors use text-based interfaces that require typing out full file paths just to open a document. Worse, a psychiatrist told the BBC that booting up the computer could take 15 minutes, and any mistake, like forgetting a dash in a command, could eat up even more time. A modern replacement is promised, but full rollout won't be complete until at least 2031.

Despite a recent spike in Windows 11 users and Microsoft's aggressive push, numbers have shown that Windows 10 is still the leading version of the OS, with a 53% market share. Meanwhile, Windows XP persists at 0.33%, highlighting the reliance on familiar platforms even as official support wanes.

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Systems in old Boeing 747s are still loader using floppy disks too.
Not surprising, if it is not connected to the internet but still gets the job done, why not? I say again: if it is not connected to the internet...
 
Anyway, who's gonna try to hack into an elevator anyway. Upgrading these older systems to use the latest Windows dumpster fire would only be asking for trouble. Just waiting for the next patch update that goes belly up.
 
Anyway, who's gonna try to hack into an elevator anyway. Upgrading these older systems to use the latest Windows dumpster fire would only be asking for trouble. Just waiting for the next patch update that goes belly up.
Or they'd inherit the modern Windows bugs, like driver decay. Up through windows 7 everything was fine, but starting with 8 something changed in how the kernel handles drivers, you leave a windows 10 or 11 PC on for a month and watch as all sorts of things like browser settings or printing just stop working correctly.

Just imagine your plane stops working because it hasnt rebooted in 7 days and it just randomly decided that you dont need to actually move your rudder.
 
The fact that an entire train system used to rely on someone manually inserting a floppy disk every morning is peak 1980s cyberpunk. I hope that person was called The Diskmaster.
 
We have been embedded with the concept that nothing is “good enough” and everything could be better. This is vital for capitalism, as the system collapses if people don’t keep buying stuff.

But in reality, if something works fine, there is no need to “upgrade” it. Windows XP didn’t “get worse” 20 years later - the stuff we wanted it to do just got more complex. If the task you want from Windows XP hasn’t changed, there’s no reason it won’t keep working.
 
I do migrations and modernizations, and I think people would be shocked to learn the state of the technology managing some important and even critical aspects of our day to day lives. I always think back to that IT Crowd episode with the bomb.
 
We have been embedded with the concept that nothing is “good enough” and everything could be better. This is vital for capitalism, as the system collapses if people don’t keep buying stuff.

But in reality, if something works fine, there is no need to “upgrade” it. Windows XP didn’t “get worse” 20 years later - the stuff we wanted it to do just got more complex. If the task you want from Windows XP hasn’t changed, there’s no reason it won’t keep working.
No, the desire for improvement is a HUMAN trait. The soviet union moved away from horses after all. The Chinese have no issue adopting new technology either.
 
There’s a difference between necessary improvements and compulsory improvements.
And yet, you list XP under the latter, when XP is fundamentally unsafe to connect to the modern internet because of its underlying design and it's reliance on older hardware makes it progressively more expensive or insurmountable to maintain. Like when they stopped making big floppy disks and the military had to start investing in CF to ISA hardware to maintain their missile systems.

Also, Necessary and Compulsory are synonyms. Per Merriam Webster

https://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/compulsory

I believe what you were going for was something like "artificial necessity" which would still be wrong, but less so. Humanity doesnt stop progressing outside of capitalism, which you would know if you took even a basic history course. What is considered unnecessary improvement is both contextual and opinionated. You ask a boomer and internet bill pay, for example, was a totally unnecessary invention and a huge headache, ask a zoomer or millennial and it was a huge leap forward in convenience.

Sending man to space was in no way necessary, yet the Soviet Union did it before we did. Funny, they're not capitalist, so.....hmmmm....
 
And yet, you list XP under the latter, when XP is fundamentally unsafe to connect to the modern internet because of its underlying design and it's reliance on older hardware makes it progressively more expensive or insurmountable to maintain. Like when they stopped making big floppy disks and the military had to start investing in CF to ISA hardware to maintain their missile systems.

Also, Necessary and Compulsory are synonyms. Per Merriam Webster

https://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/compulsory

I believe what you were going for was something like "artificial necessity" which would still be wrong, but less so. Humanity doesnt stop progressing outside of capitalism, which you would know if you took even a basic history course. What is considered unnecessary improvement is both contextual and opinionated. You ask a boomer and internet bill pay, for example, was a totally unnecessary invention and a huge headache, ask a zoomer or millennial and it was a huge leap forward in convenience.

Sending man to space was in no way necessary, yet the Soviet Union did it before we did. Funny, they're not capitalist, so.....hmmmm....
XP, if NOT connected to the internet (since the internet has CHANGED since 2002) and accomplishing the SAME tasks as it was before (like running an elevator), is perfectly fine not being upgraded.

And “necessary” means you NEED to do it. But “compulsory” means someone TOLD you you need to do it. Almost the same, but a very crucial difference.

I am not arguing over whether other systems espouse improvement - obviously everyone wants that. The difference with capitalism is that it REQUIRES improvement to work.

By the way, I LIKE capitalism - it may have flaws, but it’s still the best system humanity has developed.
 
Windows XP systems aren't quite that difficult to spot, especially if you interact with it daily, like an ATM, mainly because of BSOD.
 
Well....duh? Embedded systems are massively expensive and replacing them is often either not an option or one that cannot be budgeted for.

So long as the systems are sufficiently isolated from the internet, this isnt an issue.

Ding ding; I need to support a Windows for Workgroups 3.11 machine that interfaces with a VMS/VAX server backend. All the original programmers are no longer with us, the documentation on the source code is non-existent, the code itself is long gone; it's basically impossible to replace without building the entire system from scratch. Besides; those late-80s relics are nothing if not rock solid stable.
 
I feel like we need to start designing operating systems for longevity. Windows 10 being "that last windows" was obviously a lie and now we have whatever the dumpster fire that is windows 11 burning down wind from us. And what makes me angry above all of this is that it never had to be this way. My full migration to Linux was how MS handled W10 and the crap in W11. Sure, I can remove whatever I want from windows 11, but I shouldn't HAVE to. I was already into Linux before that so I am definitely the exception, not the rule, but like, wtf man?

Windows seems to go in cycles of great then horrible. I have a feeling Windows 12 will great and if the world hasn't started migrating stuff to Linux natively by that point, I have a feeling that I will move back to windows if it is less work to get stuff to work natively in Windows 12 than it is for me to crack software to get it to run in WINE in Linux.

But trying to stay more on topic, there are things like trains and airplanes that have embedded systems in them and either the engineers need to plane the OS around being in an embedded system or people like M$ need to plan windows being in systems that run for 30+ years.

Or, as another commenter said, making sure that they are not connected to the internet....
 
Maybe it's time to reconsider the gold engineering principle often expressed as "If it works don't touch it" or variations thereof, and make it something like "If it works and it's not networked, don't touch it".

There are zillions of systems (e.g. ATMs) that still use Windows XP embedded. There are zillions of corporate / government systems that still use extremely vulnerable Internet Explorer based technologies, like activeX controls, although IE and everything around it has been long deprecated.
All networked systems are vulnerable and should be properly secured.
 
I feel like we need to start designing operating systems for longevity. Windows 10 being "that last windows" was obviously a lie and now we have whatever the dumpster fire that is windows 11 burning down wind from us. And what makes me angry above all of this is that it never had to be this way. My full migration to Linux was how MS handled W10 and the crap in W11. Sure, I can remove whatever I want from windows 11, but I shouldn't HAVE to. I was already into Linux before that so I am definitely the exception, not the rule, but like, wtf man?

Windows seems to go in cycles of great then horrible. I have a feeling Windows 12 will great and if the world hasn't started migrating stuff to Linux natively by that point, I have a feeling that I will move back to windows if it is less work to get stuff to work natively in Windows 12 than it is for me to crack software to get it to run in WINE in Linux.

But trying to stay more on topic, there are things like trains and airplanes that have embedded systems in them and either the engineers need to plane the OS around being in an embedded system or people like M$ need to plan windows being in systems that run for 30+ years.

Or, as another commenter said, making sure that they are not connected to the internet....

Humanity would benefit from a fundamental shift of software development culture and priorities. Less greedy, childish, short-sighted decision making and more focus on flawless long term reliability and support. The inner culture of the developer is directly represented by the design of their software and the logic of how it operates.
 
The use of floppy disks worries me. Sooner or later the mechanical parts on the drive will break or there will be terminal wear on the drive heads.

Then again, who makes new 5 inch floppy disks these days? I believe there are hardware emulators for floppy drives that plug straight into an old style drive socket and will translate from a USB drive. If I had one of these old systems I'd be investing in some of those.
 
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