Does George Bush really not negotiate?

[Raven Master]

1. US is at this hour the biggest (and ony, for now) superpower.
2. They think that being the most powerful amongst the states of the Earth gives them the right to play as the cop (vigilante?) who takes care of everything.
3. Just as the terrorists were bad when attacking on 9/11, the United States are just as when they attack some other state without a resolution from the UN. Who gave them the right to attack Iraq?
What was their problem with Vietnam, former Yugoslavia and so on? The human rights?! Be serious, the Chinese give a sh** about them and nothing will EVER happen to them. Why? 'Cause they're powerful enough! In this world, you have to realize that the law of power is THE LAW.
4. I'm sorry to say, but most of the Americans seem to be brain-washed over this.
You people should really start reading some books, and get the movies of Michael Moore.
Then, take a look at your huge egoes and deflate them a little.

If it wasn"t for the USA you would still be doing the Goose step march... and as far as "taking care of everything".... stop comming to the USA and asking for a Handout...as for Michael Mooreon and his movie half of the people have lodged complaints against him for taking their remarks out of context ...it was AMERICANS tha rebuilt most of the world after WWII and continue to do so when asked and Its AMERICANS that are always rthe First to give Aid when its needed and NEVER do we ask for anything in return !!!! Nothing wrong with our egos we are DAMN PROUD of our Country and have every right to be !

 

[peepnklown]

There is a big difference between being proud of your country and not being able to take criticism.

 

[hewybo]

no problem

There is a big difference between being proud of your country and not being able to take criticism.

I have absolutely no problem with intelligent, constructive criticism. I see none of that on this page.. Being told that ALL Americans deserve terrorist attacks is not constructive. Nor is it well thought out.

Implying that Americans do not read books, or listen to voices of dissent, shows deep bias on the part of the implicator. As is usually the case, bias stems either from a lack of knowledge, or a lack of understanding.

Some of us have, in the past, been jailed as a result of protesting our government's policies, and continue to protest (peacefully) those things we see as inappropriate. To paint all Americans with the same brush is like saying that all Muslims are terrorists. Or all Irish are violent hotheads.

Criticize ME all you wish- I make my own decisions, and answer for them. Do not criticize an entire nation because of your displeasure with their government. Remember, Adolph Hitler came to power legally.

 

[LuminaryJanitor]

Do not criticize an entire nation because of your displeasure with their government.

A democratic government ends up in power because the majority of citizens want them there.

The American people must accept some responsibility for the actions of the government they have elected. Especially for the actions of the government they re-elected, because this time around you all knew what to expect.

I'm not condemning the entire country. I'm not saying that you all share the opinions of your government. But a democratically elected government is a reflection of the opinions of the majority, and the fact that your governments consistenty slaughter innocent people for resources and economic power gives me a good enough reason to hate the majority of you.

...it was AMERICANS tha rebuilt most of the world after WWII and continue to do so when asked...

Taken from here:

"Instead of subjugated enemies, the western Allies preferred to have economically strong allies, a goal which both Western Germany and Japan fulfilled perfectly during the next decades, becoming staunch supporters of capitalism and western democracy."

There's nothing to gain from a decimated continent with a collapsed economy. If the US truly wanted to help rather than protect their own interests they would have joined the war without being forced into it. Sure, they had a good reason for joining the war in Europe - had Britain fallen, the war would have come to America eventually, and they would have been left trying to defeat Germany from the other side of the Atlantic. I just wish they didn't pretend their motives were purely philanthropic.

As I mentioned before, in 1978 a UN resolution was proposed, calling for developed countries to increase the quantity and quality of development assistance to underdeveloped countries. The vote passed 119 to 1. But the US vetoed it, and the resolution was thrown out. Why would they do such a thing? If the US truly acts out of compassion, why would they reject a proposal to improve the standard of living in third-world countries? Because it's easier to exploit them if you keep them in poverty.

 

[Raven Master]

I can take criticism when the criticismis based on the facts not on propaganda...I dont agree with all policies put fourth by this country all the time either but its still the best there is out there.

.

As I mentioned before, in 1978 a UN resolution was proposed, calling for developed countries to increase the quantity and quality of development assistance to underdeveloped countries. The vote passed 119 to 1. But the US vetoed it, and the resolution was thrown out. Why would they do such a thing? If the US truly acts out of compassion, why would they reject a proposal to improve the standard of living in third-world countries? Because it's easier to exploit them if you keep them in poverty.

As For the Den Of Thieves refered to as the UN here is the statastics of the votes against the US and that Us Dollars they receive

How they vote in the United Nations:

Below are the actual voting records of various Arabic/Islamic States which

are recorded in both the US State Department and United Nations records:

Kuwait votes against the United States 67% of the time
Qatar votes against the United States 67% of the time
Morocco votes against the United States 70% of the time
United Arab Emirates votes against the U. S. 70% of the time.
Jordan votes against the United States 71% of the time.
Tunisia votes against the United States 71% of the time.
Saudi Arabia votes against the United States 73% of the time.
Yemen votes against the United States 74% of the time.
Algeria votes against the United States 74% of the time.
Oman votes against the United States 74% of the time.
Sudan votes against the United States 75% of the time.
Pakistan votes against the United States 75% of the time.
Libya votes against the United States 76% of the time.
Egypt votes against the United States 79% of the time.
Lebanon votes against the United States 80% of the time.
India votes against the United States 81% of the time.
Syria votes against the United States 84% of the time..
Mauritania votes against the United States 87% of the time.

U S Foreign Aid to those that hate us:

Egypt, for example, after voting 79% of the time against
the United States, still receives $2 billion annually in US Foreign Aid.

Jordan votes 71% against the United States
and receives $192,814,000 annually in US Foreign Aid.

Pakistan votes 75% against the United States
receives $6,721,000 annually in US Foreign Aid.

India votes 81% against the United States
receives $143,699,000 annually.

Perhaps it is time to get out of the UN and give the tax savings back to the American workers who are having to skimp and sacrifice to pay the taxes

yup time to let the other countries take care of them selves in My opinion

 

[hewybo]

To the "Luminary" but unenlightened Custodian

You form your opininons of me, and speak of me, out of ignorance, and hatred. Odd, isn't it, that I don't hate you ? You see, I don't know you. I would have to know you to have an informed enough opinion to decide HOW I felt about you.

 

[Eko]

Of course the Americans pump money....

... If (and only if) they get something out of it.
Be sure I hate not the Americans as people, but the hypocrisy of their leaders. Some say that the money of Americans are spent somewhere else. Get a good look at the true motives between their actions, and then comment.
Another thing: do you have a statistic of the number of unemployed in the American system vs. the one in Ghana, for example?
Do you think it's OK to pollute (and don't give a damn) when everyone beside you is trying to protect their children, maybe unborn yet?
It's OK to spend billion of dollars not for the good of all mankind, but for increasing your "nuclear baseball bat" with which you can keep the others away?
Who are you fighting against, people? Several thousand people which are brainwashed? The big Soviet Union is no more. So why developing more and more destructive weapons? Because of Korea? Yeah, right...
Pretty soon, we'll have limited search because, for example, if I want to see how a plutonium bomb is made, I'm a potential terrorist, right ?!
You just can't look in the mirror and say "We are going on a wrong way with GW Bush"... can you?!
How can you let him go after he was involved with the bin Laden family in oil bussiness (with his father) for several years ?
The only rights in this world are the right of money and the right of power...
You saw Star Wars ? Episode III ? Emperor Palpatine? Emergency, crisis, terr'ism ? Imagine some parallels!

 

[RealBlackStuff]

You had enough *****s voting for that sucker GWB.
You getz what you deservez!

 

[hewybo]

Only the *****s-

You had enough *****s voting for that sucker GWB.
You getz what you deservez!

The *****s DO get what they deserve. The rest get taken along for the unpleasant ride.

Seems the leader of the UK has staunchly backed that sucker GWB. Intelligence (or the lack of it) knows neither borders nor ethnicity.

 

[Raven Master]

The *****s DO get what they deserve. The rest get taken along for the unpleasant ride.

I have to agree hewybo.... the 2 terms of Bill Clinton were proof of that...lmao :haha:

 

[RealBlackStuff]

Seems the leader of the UK has staunchly backed that sucker GWB. Intelligence (or the lack of it) knows neither borders nor ethnicity.

That may be so, but has nothing to do with me (an IRISH citizen).
ANYthing from the UK is still hugely unpopular in Ireland, and will probably always be!

But we are deviating here from the subject, Mr Incapability GWB himself.

 

[hewybo]

Yah, Erin Go Bragh

That may be so, but has nothing to do with me (an IRISH citizen).
ANYthing from the UK is still hugely unpopular in Ireland, and will probably always be!

But we are deviating here from the subject, Mr Incapability GWB himself.

Yeah, RBS, we can all learn the intricacies of peaceful, benevolent politics from the Irish, nah?

 

[Spike]

Actually, yes you can. It's the Irish politicians you need to watch

As for the UK leader supporting GWB, well, lets just say it's one of the reasons that the UK leader has so little support now (from me at least).

 

[hewybo]

I'm confused

Actually, yes you can. It's the Irish politicians you need to watch

As for the UK leader supporting GWB, well, lets just say it's one of the reasons that the UK leader has so little support now (from me at least).

Lemme get this straight- reading these posts, Americans are stupid (and, apparently, hated) because of their politicians. BUT- the other countries (Ireland, as in your post above) are to be considered NOT by their politicians, but by their citizens? Seems to me you guys hold me, as an American, to a different standard than you use for yourselves.

EVERYBODY but Americans have a clear and wonderfully accurate view of the world, and all would be well if the Osamas had their way and we were "buried?"

Now, THAT'S benevolence!!

 

[RealBlackStuff]

I think that all US citizens should be forced to spend some time learning their Geography!
The majority of you hasn't got a clue that Europe has many different countries, let alone what names those countries have.

Spike is a UK citizen, I am an Irish citizen.
I like Spike (that really rhymes well) as a person, but I don't like his (UK) government.
Now that's benevolence from me!

 

[hewybo]

missed the point

RBS_ I am familiar with the geography of the world. I identified you and Spike because you are the ones that are taking me and my country to task (among others, obviously). I also happen to like Spike, and I even kind of like you, too, though you seem to get a bit crusty at times.

I do not confuse comments in this thread as all coming from a united EU front. There is obviously no such thing. Many of the posters do not identify their location, so I take them as they come. You, and Spike, and others, demonstrate some intelligence and forethought, at least.

My point is that many of the people that are making these comments seem to consider "Americans" as all united in some sort of "damn the world-I'll take what I want" clique. That is nowhere near the reality, and that should be obvious. I DO NOT support GWB, and have considered him to be a dolt since the time he ran the Texas Rangers baseball organization(?).

I speak for myself, yet many contributors to this thread seem to think that they know me, and therefore ALL Americans, and that we should ALL be castigated for our beliefs and lack of morals/world view. That is the worst sort of bias.

 

[Spike]

I have a go at GWB and do so directly. I also have a go at those who voted for him to a certain extent perhaps, but I certainly don't have a go at all americans. Personally, I like to think of everybody as people of the world rather than citizens of a country. Naturally, when I speak of America, I speak of the "State" the state being the government and it's actions/policies. I also sometimes use "America" to speak of the land itself, but then that's just the beauty of context .

When it comes to the individual, I take each on their merits. I'm glad you guys seem to like me because if I'm any kind of judge of character, it would infer that I'm a reasonably decent person and come across as such, and evidently I quite like you guys too (great - that's the mutual gratification crap outta the way, even if it is meant wholeheartedly. lol) American, Irish, Albanian, Iranian, or dare I say, even English - I try to take people as they come and I know RBS is much the same in that respect, as are you I suspect.

That said, I think the comedian Bill Bailey said it best - he equated the US and UK to school children in the playground, saying that "America is like the big bully of the world, and the UK is like the tag-along git poking his head out from behind him saying "yeeeah" (in a completely false and pathetic demonstration of authority and force).

Not that I recall taking America itself to task in this thread, certainly not persistantly anyway = I don't know I'll have to take a look.

However, If I were to strike out at "Americans", it would be purely aimed at those whove been brainwashed by the state. If I were to talk about "America" in reference to it's government, it's a natural progression to referr to the governments fanboys and all-TOO-willing adherants as "Americans", even if that is to confuse the issue a little. Clearly there are other kinds of Americans outside of the group I refer to, but I'm not using the term in that context and so am not referring to them.

(EDIT by Spike: Just in case (As usually happens with such long posts) someone skim reads this thread an picks out the comment below as offensive, please know that I have already apologised for and explained my intentions behind this comment further in the thread, whereafter there was a fairly reasoned and intelligent (if a little heated) debate, ending in an agreement to disagree.)

I leave it here for context to subsequent replies and the apology only

However, I do rather feel that anybody genuinely voting for Bush is either brainwashed, naive, stupid, or otherwise generally not nice, or an ignorant (of the consequences of GWBs actions) person. But that really only accounts for half of all those that voted, which really isn't that many when you think about it.

 

[SNGX1275]

However, I do rather feel that anybody genuinely voting for Bush is either brainwashed, naive, stupid, or otherwise generally not nice, or an ignorant (of the consequences of GWBs actions) person. But that really only accounts for half of all those that voted, which really isn't that many when you think about it.

I voted for him. Guess I'm either brainwashed, naive, stupid, mean, or ignorant because of that...

There are really only 2 choices for President here in the US, you can talk about all the other parties all you want, but what it amounts to is if you don't vote repub or dem your guy is going to lose. And don't give me any of that BS about 'if the people that think that would just vote for who they want then the 3rd party wouldn't lose' the numbers are unrealistic to even acknowledge that idea.

Bush, in my opinion, at the time of the election was the better man for the job. Kerry was a good politician and not that good of a man. I don't want to get into any What Ifs? I didn't even want to get into this at all. But I felt I needed to point out that sometimes you don't vote for who you want to win, you vote against the guy you don't.

Judging the politics of a country from outside that country is an easy thing to do cause you can just take all the broad actions of what someone did, and disagree and therefore hate their leader, I really doubt you got the whole story on any of the issues that were in the spotlight during the campaigns.

This whole discussion is technically off topic anyway, and its now becoming something thats going to end up getting someone upset.

 

[spartanslayer]

RBS_ I am familiar with the geography of the world. I identified you and Spike because you are the ones that are taking me and my country to task (among others, obviously). I also happen to like Spike, and I even kind of like you, too, though you seem to get a bit crusty at times.

I do not confuse comments in this thread as all coming from a united EU front. There is obviously no such thing. Many of the posters do not identify their location, so I take them as they come. You, and Spike, and others, demonstrate some intelligence and forethought, at least.

My point is that many of the people that are making these comments seem to consider "Americans" as all united in some sort of "damn the world-I'll take what I want" clique. That is nowhere near the reality, and that should be obvious. I DO NOT support GWB, and have considered him to be a dolt since the time he ran the Texas Rangers baseball organization(?).

I speak for myself, yet many contributors to this thread seem to think that they know me, and therefore ALL Americans, and that we should ALL be castigated for our beliefs and lack of morals/world view. That is the worst sort of bias.

On the other hand, there are Americans like me, and, although I don't approve of George Bush's foreign policy (ie. I think we should be more aggresive overseas, and stop illegal immigration), I still support him as president. I may not particularly like him, but I'll support him until the next election. Hopefully there will be more qualified men then, or women (Condeleza Rice)!

And Spike, the people being brainwashed by the Schools are the liberals, who voted against GB. The school system in America is horrible. I'm very thankful I'm homeschooled.

 

[Spike]

well, not so much ignorant SNGX - hence the parentheses... "ignorant (of the consequences of GWBs actions)"

However, to my mind (bearing in mind, using the analogy I posted earlier in the thread, I'm politically far closer to Ghandi than Hitler - as I would hope most people are to be honest), when I think of the war in afghanistan I think "ok, retaliation isn't suprising, given the event". But when I see the war in Iraq, and the bush supporters who for some reason seemed to think that it was somehow linked to 9/11 It does kinda give me the impression that those particular people are pretty stupid. Then I think towards the way the rest of the world views the US with it's current administration, which for the most part really isn't all that well, and it got worse with his re-election. Worse still in my mind are the (by now) hundreds of thousands if not millions of human lives lost in the name of Bushes whims, and currently the dichotomy between the US treatment of India, N.Korea, and Iran respectively. It seriously worries me that in a country where separation of church and state is written into the constitution, the president is guided by "God" in terms of the wars he wages, and is happy to lend his support to religious matters at various levels.

However, I will apologise for my comments in that statement - they were written in haste, and it was really badly put, not to mention completely out of order. The essence of the comment was intented purely to demonstrate that I fundamentally disagree with the way the US Administration is throwing it's weight around in the world (to my mind, like some kid having a tantrum to be honest) while other nations follow for what seem largely to be political, economic, and power/control interests. This particular comment though DID tar a lot of people with the same brush - an attitude that untill then, as even mentioned in that same post, I hadn't been party too. It wasn't my intention, but not thinking about what I said I ended up doing so, for which I am truly sorry.

And Spike, the people being brainwashed by the Schools are the liberals, who voted against GB. The school system in America is horrible. I'm very thankful I'm homeschooled.

Interesting you should say that, what with Bush being a classic NEO-liberal. I can't comment on the school system in the US though as I know very little about it. I do know though that the extreme liberals in the US are no better than their counterparts. The same goes for any extreme and its opposite to be honest, but an unbalanced extremity tends to run away with itself and so both sides are needed. This was in fact the intention of by statement at the beginning of page two of this thread...

"The definition of the unreasonable man is in the absoluteness of his beliefs and opinions."

...and yes, that includes myself, hence the apology already given.

For the record though, The direct opposite of libertarianism is authoritarianism, the direct opposite of collectivism is capitolism. The USSR was collectivist but heavily state controlled (leftist and very facist). The US is capitolist and authoritarian (way out to the right and not on the middle road, but halfway between it and facism). The UK is in much the same place, but a little further to the left and center than the US, and so really not that much different.

In an ideal world, there's be no left and right, nor any libertarian/authoritarian scale - there's just be a center which is where everyone should really be. That's where the balance is. I VERY much don't thing GWB is the one to achieve that for the US, but then I also have to agree that in the last election, kerry wasn't the man for it either. Personally, if I were an american in america, I'd have voted for a third candidate in the knowledge that if enough people did it the message it would send to the two main parties couldn't be clearer.ok. the third party candidate wouldn't win in all likelyhood, but to me, if a democracy is going to be true and actually worth anything, then I'd vote for who I most liked, rather than who I thought would win. Democracy is supposedly about giving the individual a say, and to my mind a vote for the whichever of the popular candidates is most likely to win is a wasted vote if that isn't the person you actually feel should win. It's the "vote for the winner" kind of thinking that's resulted in politics becoming so corrupt - not just in the us but in other countries too, including the US. The "founding fathers" were supposedly "honest politicians", while today there's no such thing.

editJust as a footnote, what is a "liberal" in America? It doesn't seem to ring true with the actual definition of libertarianism. for some reason, I get the impression that people somehow consider "lefties" to be liberals?

 

[spartanslayer]

Spike,
The US may be throwing it's weight around, but we are doing it in a good way. I don't see any other countrys willingly trying to free the Iraq's from their dictator. And what about Afghanistan. We Americans have a reason to be attacking the Middle East, 911. If no one else is willing to help people around the world, we will. And trust me, the school system is very liberal.

 

[Spike]

The US may be throwing it's weight around, but we are doing it in a good way. I don't see any other countrys willingly trying to free the Iraq's from their dictator.

Erm, while ridding the world of a brutal dictator is indeed a good thing, was that the reason that the US went to war, and the reason Americans agreed to it? If so, why haven't they deposed the N.Korean dictator, amongs many others?

And what about Afghanistan.

I have already attempted to say that I actually both understand and sympathise on that account.

We Americans have a reason to be attacking the Middle East, 911.

There again - 9/11 isn't a reason to be attacking the middle east. It was a reason to depose the taliban and distroy al-queda training camps there, but it isn't a reason to be attacking any country the US feels like attacking. Iraq was NOTHING to do with 9/11. Never was, and never will be.

If no one else is willing to help people around the world, we will.

I'm pretty sure that if the US diverted all the money it spent on war in the middle east to being far better benefactors to Africa (though admittedly this is one area of the world where the US is doing some very good work), then in no time at all may lives would have been saved, many more would come, and the US would have gotten a whole lot of respect it doesn't have now from pretty much everywhere. There are also a great many people who need their freedom - what of the people of Taiwan? What of the people of Chechnya, who to start with were actually fighting a genuine war with Russia for freedom, untill they were demonised by russia, where for political reasons the US stood by Russia, and the chechnyans were forced into the very thing they'd been accused of to try to break free.

A country could be said to have a "right" to retaliate - but no country has any moral right to take the high ground and impose itself on another - that's exactly what the terrorists tried to do to the US on 9/11 and to return in kind is to make america no better. To sort out the afghanistan issue was understandable to a point, but to try to use it as an excuse to do what you (ie, america) likes is bordering on the rediculous. Let's not forget that the very dictator that was so great to get rid of was, like bin laden, once the greatest friend the west had ever had so to speak. Why?

And trust me, the school system is very liberal.

As I said, I know very little about the US school system. The way I figure it, if liberal teacxhes respect for fellow human beings and means that religion has no place in the classroom, then I'm all for it. If it has any other bearing on what the schools teach then I'd love to hear it if only for my own knowledge.

What can I say - I have opinions, My opinions, as a rough rule, seem to be supported by half of the wide variety of people I know, while the other half seem to hold opposite opinions. Maybe my view isn't perfect and I'm happy to say that, but neither is the other side of the coin. The balance lies in the middle, but for some reason it seems that it isn't the middle road that's being followed - it'll lead to disaster. In spite of any good that might have been done in the middle east, it's already being rapidly undone by the amount of instability in the world that the work to get there has caused. If it carries on down this road much further, it's going to get very nasty for anyone and everyone, including those who live today's relative comfort zone of "the west", and freedom isn't much use to a person when he or she is dead.

 

[spartanslayer]

Well Spike,
Americans may live in the "comfy zone", but look how we got here. We fought our way through 2 world wars, including one that was a great help to your country. And tell the army and rangers that they live in the comfy zone. That's pretty ironic. The US never attacks just for the fun of attacking, and don't you worry, I'm pretty sure North Korea is next. However I definately agree you have a right to your own opinion. If we can't agree, then let's drop the topic, and go back to helping others on TechSpot.

 

[Spike]

Spartanslayer, I really don't think we are going to agree on this, and just as you respect mine, I respect your right to your opinion also. I might not agree with it, but I defend wholeheartedly your right to hold it.

At the end of the day, we're two sides to the same coin here - to the best of my knowledge a one-sided coin is pretty useless in any currency

I'm happy to agree to disagee, and thankyou for the debate. If you wouldn't mind though, I would very much appreciate it if you would possibly PM me simply to tell be what exactly the term "liberal" means in US political terminology - I have a fair idea, but I'd just like to confirm it. Much obliged

 

[spartanslayer]

Liberal means "extremely Democrat" or that's the way I see it. Think Pro-Choice, Anti-War, and for Gay rights.