Dutch Amazon is listing the 12900K, 12700K, and 12600K

Irata

Posts: 1,805   +3,033
So what? Isn't Apple supposedly based in Ireland to avoid taxes. Doesn't Amazon lobby for tax breaks wheb selecting a location for a new "distribution center". And hasn't Elon Musk practically sucked the life out of the US government for tax incentives for both Tesla and Space-X?. In Tesla's case, he built a huge factory in China, after he ran out of tax breaks in the US.

Pick one social caste I feel like listening to the least, Musk's fanboyz, AMD fanboysz, or Apple fanboyz
A: Musk fanboyz
B:AMD fanboyz
C: Apple fanboyx
D: All of the above, I wish they'd all shut up

If you guessed "D" you guessed right..

Think I'm wrong? Read this:
Totally not arguing regarding companies taking advantage of tax breaks and government handouts whenever they can.

But what does that have to do with my reply to your post?

You said they are able to build these new fabs because they are great at making profits (they are good at that, but it seems to get harder when faced with actual competition), I said that holding out their hand for government money is definitely enabling this, as well.

Tesla, Apple…. have nothing to do with this.
 

captaincranky

Posts: 17,623   +6,411
You said they are able to build these new fabs because they are great at making profits (they are good at that, but it seems to get harder when faced with actual competition), I said that holding out their hand for government money is definitely enabling this, as well.
OK, AMD has barely survived going into bankruptcy.. Neither of us actually know, what profit margin they're willing to accept to stay afloat, or cut into Intel;'s share of the market. Are AMD's wages comparable to Intels? Or are their employees psyched up enough they're willing to do "a lot more for a little less"? After all it behooves them to pitch in on any cost cutting to keep their jobs..

As for whether Apple or Tesla are pertinent to this discussion, I feel they are. You can't summarily dismiss Intel's accepting tax help as "evil", when so many other companies have done, and are still doing, exactly the same thing.

Besides, the endless harping about how, "AMD good, Intel bad", does get f**king tedious..
 

Adi6293

Posts: 931   +1,307
And like I said before, all that "profit taking" you're accusing Intel of, has allowed them to break ground on 3 or 4 new fabs, while AMD is still kissing TSMC's a**.

Intel is a manufacturer, AMD is a design firm. Try to take that into account while you're blowing up all this fanboy nonsense.

So just because I'm calling Intel out I'm a fanboy?.. What if my current CPU is the 10850K?
 

captaincranky

Posts: 17,623   +6,411
Besides, the endless harping about how, "AMD good, Intel bad", does get f**king tedious..
So just because I'm calling Intel out I'm a fanboy?.. What if my current CPU is the 10850K?
OK, "fanboy" is intended as a generalization. Take it however you choose. Surely you're not trying to deny there's a crapload of it going on here, are you?

All 6 of my systems are Intel based, But I don't consider myself an "Intel fanboy". Perhaps I'm a victim or "brand recognition psychosis", and that's why I build with their product.

AMD was garbage for more than a decade. Their x86-64 dual cores woke up "the sleeping giant", once before, and it might happen again, we'll have to wait and see/

The only constant I see in context here, is most of the membership feels that they're entitled to a lot more, for a lot less. And that just happens to be the nature of spoiled children.

Another parallel with Apple is in order here, Apple's "iSheep" are willing to pay a lot more than Apple's product is actually worth.. The only conclusion I can draw from that is, most of them are computer illiterate, overly socially preoccupied snobs, and Apple's propaganda machine is working double-time to pander to it...

And as I said before, neither you nor I, know exactly what profit margin AMD is willing to accept to get back on their feet..

Best advice there is, if you want to support the underdog, and anticipate a great rise in their stock prices, buy AMD. If you want reliable dividends, perhaps you should look toward Intel shares...
 
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Adi6293

Posts: 931   +1,307
OK, "fanboy" is intended as a generalization. Take it however you choose. Surely you're not trying to deny there's a crapload of it going on here, are you?

All 6 of my systems are Intel based, but I don't consider myself an "Intel fanboy". Perhaps I'm a victim or "brand recognition psychosis", and that's why I build with their product.

AMD was garbage for more than a decade. Their x86-64 dual cores woke up "the sleeping giant", once before, and it might happen again, we'll have to wait and see/

The only constant I see in context here, is most of the membership feels they're entitled to a lot more, for a lot less. And that just happens to be the nature of spoiled children.....

People calling out Intel for a reason, I as company hate them for their lack of ethics I only bought the 10850K because 5900X was either out of stock or was going for £600, the i9 was £409 which was a good deal but Intel would never sell us a 10 cores CPU for this cheap if AMD wasn't selling a better product for not much more
 

captaincranky

Posts: 17,623   +6,411
People calling out Intel for a reason, I as company hate them for their lack of ethics I only bought the 10850K because 5900X was either out of stock or was going for £600, the i9 was £409 which was a good deal but Intel would never sell us a 10 cores CPU for this cheap if AMD wasn't selling a better product for not much more
All of those unfortunate happenings are you're problem, not mine.

But let me get this straight, you, "hate Intel", and would have "bought AMD" and you're not a fanboy?

Or are are you just the "spoiled child" I described in my last post, always believing they're entitled to a lot more for a lot less"?

Besides, who in their right argues about the comparative price of a product, if AMD can't deliver enough of them? They could say the price was a dollar,,which wouldn't matter if they didn't have any to sell.
 

Adi6293

Posts: 931   +1,307
All of those unfortunate happenings are you're problem, not mine.

But let me get this straight, you, "hate Intel", and would have "bought AMD" and you're not a fanboy?

Or are are you just the "spoiled child" I described in my last post, always believing they're entitled to a lot more for a lot less"?

Besides, who in their right argues about the comparative price of a product, if AMD can't deliver enough of them? They could say the price was a dollar,,which wouldn't matter if they didn't have any to sell.

Well I'm definitely not a spoiled child, most of my life I was poor, I would prefer to have AMD CPU but I haven't lost my mind entirely to pay 50% more for extra 2 cores at the time but at the MSRP I would pay that little bit more
 

Sausagemeat

Posts: 1,036   +863
Please show where I make an excuse for AMD. Anywhere. I'm explaining why they can and should charge more. Because new CPUs deliver more.



That's called business. Only a fool running a business sells a product for less than the market will pay for it. Especially when lower tier products are both cheaper and *more than adequate for a similar job* (3600, 10400). If AMD CPUs are stitting on shelves gathering dust then the price is wrong. But that's clearly not happening.

Make no mistake: An 8+ core processor is a halo product. The only reason AMD sold the 1700 and 2700 for cheapish is because their reputation was trash and those processors were only faster in some workloads, not all. As they improved the speed of their processors, AMD wasn't about to give anyone that increase in speed for free because that's bad business. The 5800X processor is now $120 more list for a lot more performance than either the 7700K or the previous gen 3700X. You want more, you pay more, and BTW that price is coming down, by about $55 off list as of now.

Still don't want to pay more? There's still the 5600X, 3700X, 11700K, 10700K for similar prices and all are *great* processors. 11400, 3600, 10400 if you need to go lower, all very good. Lots of choice.

Business.



Do you have a point about the 3990X? Do you begrudge AMD for creating CPUs for different price and performance points? Should there be less choice?



Lol @Wake up. Wow, you totally showed me there. Stick to the discussion.

I discussed business above. And in my first post. Read your last paragraph there and apply it to your complaints above about AMD being in business to charge more for higher tier products. That's the point.

And Intel is also in business to charge more for higher tier products, they just didn't do it right with their artificially segmented HEDT line prior to Coffee Lake. AMD showed them how to do it right by incorporating those core counts into mainstream MoBos and charging more for a new tier of products, but not ridiculously more. They caught on pretty quickly.
Wow you’ve written an essay, you really are marching to AMDs defence aren’t you.

I’m not blaming AMD for raising prices, they are a business and businesses are designed to make money (as I mentioned). However you’re still wrong. Intel had HEDT which was absurdly expensive but AMD have TR which is yet even more expensive, extremely expensive, most expensive CPU ever expensive. The fact is AMD have raised prices way more than Intel have over the last 10 years. And that was my point. If you disagree, show me any consumer grade CPU from Intel with prices anywhere near TR.

And yes you can buy a midrange CPU for the same price that we used to pay for top end hardware. Thankyou for proving my point..

However it was very telling how you reacted to my post. For some reason you don’t like me pointing out the fact that AMD are gouging more than Intel have for the last 10 year.
 

Adi6293

Posts: 931   +1,307
Wow you’ve written an essay, you really are marching to AMDs defence aren’t you.

I’m not blaming AMD for raising prices, they are a business and businesses are designed to make money (as I mentioned). However you’re still wrong. Intel had HEDT which was absurdly expensive but AMD have TR which is yet even more expensive, extremely expensive, most expensive CPU ever expensive. The fact is AMD have raised prices way more than Intel have over the last 10 years. And that was my point. If you disagree, show me any consumer grade CPU from Intel with prices anywhere near TR.

And yes you can buy a midrange CPU for the same price that we used to pay for top end hardware. Thankyou for proving my point..

However it was very telling how you reacted to my post. For some reason you don’t like me pointing out the fact that AMD are gouging more than Intel have for the last 10 year.

No they are not, yes AMD HEDT is more expensive than Intels was at the top end but most people don't need to buy HEDT, you still get cheaper and faster sku's than what Intel used to sell in their HEDT line up, AMD just added models on top of that, that 3990X is basically an Epic CPU for like half the price... You can call it gauging but I call it a good deal for those who need that kind of performance
 

captaincranky

Posts: 17,623   +6,411
Well I'm definitely not a spoiled child, most of my life I was poor, I would prefer to have AMD CPU but I haven't lost my mind entirely to pay 50% more for extra 2 cores at the time but at the MSRP I would pay that little bit more
We could always fall back to the conspiracy theory that, "covid was released in the wild, to screw up supply chains, which in turn caused shortages" Thereby enabling manufacturers to overcharge for their products, by simply adhering to the well established.law of, "supply and demand".

My personal take on this situation is this, TSMC promised more chips than they could possibly deliver.

And two, that AMD lured customers back by under pricing their initial run (s?) of CPUs. And now, a pricing reality check has set in, after the success of their initial offerings.

It does stand to reason that a company trying to get back on their feet after hitting the brink of bankruptcy, might be willing to accept a 10% margin.. but now they're shooting for a more realistic 25%, (or so).
 

Adi6293

Posts: 931   +1,307
We could always fall back to the conspiracy theory that, "covid was released in the wild, to screw up supply chains, which in turn caused shortages" Thereby enabling manufacturers to overcharge for their products, by simply adhering to the well established.law of, "supply and demand".

My personal take on this situation is this, TSMC promised more chips than they could possibly deliver.

And two, that AMD lured customers back by under pricing their initial run (s?) of CPUs. And now, a pricing reality check has set in, after the success of their initial offerings.

It does stand to reason that a company trying to get back on their feet after hitting the brink of bankruptcy, might be willing to accept a 10% margin.. but now they're shooting for a more realistic 25%, (or so).

There is truth in both of your " theories" they have definitely charged less than they wanted to at first but at the same time they couldn't really change more because they didn't win in all applications on top of it I think their average margin was closer to 40ish percent and now they are working towards the 50% mark. You know I did actually owned a 5800X for around a month which I then sold because my mind was really set on the 5900X and I ended up with the i9, just like I wanted the 6800XT and I ended up with a 3080 such a bad AMD fanboy : - P
 

Lew Zealand

Posts: 1,973   +2,305
TechSpot Elite
Wow you’ve written an essay, you really are marching to AMDs defence aren’t you.

I’m not blaming AMD for raising prices, they are a business and businesses are designed to make money (as I mentioned). However you’re still wrong. Intel had HEDT which was absurdly expensive but AMD have TR which is yet even more expensive, extremely expensive, most expensive CPU ever expensive. The fact is AMD have raised prices way more than Intel have over the last 10 years. And that was my point. If you disagree, show me any consumer grade CPU from Intel with prices anywhere near TR.

And yes you can buy a midrange CPU for the same price that we used to pay for top end hardware. Thankyou for proving my point..

However it was very telling how you reacted to my post. For some reason you don’t like me pointing out the fact that AMD are gouging more than Intel have for the last 10 year.

OK I get it. You love Intel and are not interested in a discussion about business practices. That's fine. Enjoy!
 

McMurdeR

Posts: 373   +366
I'm disappointed (understatement) with new hardware prices so I simply haven't bought anything significant. I bought a PS5 specifically because of the ludicrous PC prices.

PC always had a viable case against new consoles, initial cost was high but there was money to be saved elsewhere. You could buy an upgrade GPU and fit it in a few years old machine for the price of a new console. The new GPU obliterated it usually if you had chosen your CPU wisely. Now because of the prices these days it's literally impossible to justify, when new GPUs no faster like an RTX3060 cost 30+ percent more than the entire machine. The only way hardware seems to be reasonably priced at the moment is if you buy bundles or pre-builts.

Despite the fact I have always built all my own machines I am seriously considering a pre-built this Christmas as an easy cheap hardware upgrade until it's realistic to custom build again. Sad days.

Same here. Consoles are hard to come by, but at least they're MSRP. The PC gamer's price / value proposition is miles out of kilter atm - if you can even find a seller. I'm out until late 2022 at least.

On the other hand, the situation shows the PCs other strengths - my 4 year old box still manages quite well, and there's a huge back catalogue to play on it...