Graphics cards face further shortages as crypto prices rise

Mining bitcoins is a ridiculous waste of energy and should be banned by all.
This is *****ic. People say gaming is a waste of energy too, does that mean bend over and take it? It's none of your damn business what I do with my GPU.

GPU mining is the most incredible waste of resources ever. It’s a waste of cards that could be used by real gamers. It’s damn sure a waste of electricity and it’s a waste of thermal heat going into our atmosphere (unless you use the rig to heat your house?)

NVIDIA and AMD need to sell cards directly to consumers, one at a time, to ensure real gamers get them.

That said: Cryptocurrency is being resurrected by institutional buying. The average investor is better in stocks.
I disagree with the sentiment re: mining but I agree that retailers need to do more to limit sales per-customer. GPU mining farms are harmful to crypto because it centralizes mining power in the hands of a few, which is against crypto's decentralizing ethos. Satoshi's entire intent with Bitcoin was against that.

Instead of bellyaching about crypto miners, all of you could be easily mining yourselves and learning about crypto with programs like CudoMiner.
 
That energy could have been used for other things.

Specifically: content creation/ entertainment.

Furthermore, these mining rigs generate so much heat that you usually need air conditioning just to cool them down. So you end up wasting even more energy...

That same money and energy invested into real, tangible products yields better results.
I'm not using my computer 24/7. There is no reason it can't mine while I'm away or asleep. As for your charge that it's not "tangible," crypto can and does go towards tangible products all the time. And how is "video rendering" any more tangible than crypto? It's also just bits, and its value as a cultural product is even more relative than crypto's value as a financial product.
 
He probably means "If you made a new currency out of 21 million high security paper banknotes then irreversibly destroyed the printing plates + designs then handed them out to those with expensive GPU's then setup Internet trading exchanges, you'd achieve the same thing Bitcoin has without the absolutely insane resource wastage". ie, "But gaming is a waste of resources too!" is a straw-man since it's impossible to play video games without using electricity, whilst it's entirely possible to create a currency that isn't overprinted without wasting billions of dollars of energy / resources / wealth destruction in the process.
Sure. It's impossible to play games without electricity. But what is the value of gaming? You call my argument a straw-man, but it isn't, because it was from the perspective of value. Say what you will, but cryptocurrencies are more valuable than gaming. So much so, that games are created on them nowadays, in case you didn't know.
Your argument is the equivalent of saying that a gaming PC is a waste of energy and resources because you can play on consoles too. Newsflash; It's not the same thing.

Sure. You don't need so much electricity to create a currency. But can you create a currency that is non-consumable (unlike Gold that can be used for other things), AND durable (unlike paper that deteriorates over time or can be burned), AND easily portable (unlike Gold), AND highly divisible (unlike Gold), AND easily transactable (unlike gold), AND counterfeit proof (unlike fiat), AND scarce (unlike fiat), AND programmable (unlike fiat & gold), AND decentralized, without using so much energy?
I know the answer. But I won't tell you what it is. I want to know what you think.

The only way your argument flies is to degrade Bitcoin's value to 'just' another currency. But it's not just the currency by itself. It's all the additional aspects and features that come with it that makes it different from other currencies. And those features have value.

"Bitcoin consumes more energy than Switzerland, according to new estimate". Switzerland's GDP = $708bn. Bitcoin's net worth (18.6bn units mined x $30k = $558bn). Meanwhile at a rate of 900 new Bitcoins mined per day x 365 days per year x $30k BTC, it will cost the equivalent in electricity used to generate a $708bn GDP economy over the next 12 months to mine approx $9.9bn more BTC wealth. It's like watching someone on a $30k salary pay $2.1m in fuel costs to travel to work and justify it on hyper-ideological "but it's not FIAT petroleum, that's ALL that counts"...
And that is less than 0.25% of the whole planet's energy consumption. And you think that is somehow making a difference...?
Additionally, by that metric, it only shows that Bitcoin is actually still undervalued. This argument will fly out the window as soon as the Bitcoin price increases. Your argument assumes that the price of Bitcoin will remain the same, which is a very broken assumption. Thanks for that by the way. You have unknowingly given me a metric to calculate a potential cycle top valuation.

And another thing... Did you ask yourself why Switzerland was picked? Switzerland is nowhere near the top consumption country in the world.
It's 44th on total power consumption.
It's 36th on consumption per person.

You know who consumes the most per person? Iceland. And they consume almost 8X as much energy as Switzerland does per person.
The US consumes almost twice as much as Switzerland per person. I don't hear anyone screaming how US citizens are wasting energy.
And that's not counting the other 30+ countries that are all higher than Switzerland in consumption per capita.

You can look at things in two ways. Either you count only the ones that are using Bitcoin, or you count the whole world. Bitcoin is a global market. If you're going to use GDP, which uses everyone whether they generate income or not, you should use the total human population. How much energy does BTC use per capita then...? And even if you want to count only the ones using Bitcoin, those amount of people are estimated to be 45 million, which is almost 6 times as many as the whole country of Switzerland.

We can all play the numbers game to push a certain agenda. You cannot compare two completely different markets in this way. It's like saying that cars are a waste of energy and bad for the environment, because they consume gas and produce excess CO2, while horses can also transport you and are carbon neutral.

That's how completely ridiculous and insanely wasteful the maths are behind it as an "alternative" to "I don't trust USD". Everyone is so hooked up on punch-drunk levels of "Hopium" of Bitcoin replacing all normal currencies on the one single metric of "but you can't overprint it", they've stopped asking if the overall "big picture" maths actually add up vs real-world economics of what the same energy could otherwise produce on an actual industry (not currency) level...
"Normal" currencies? What is even a 'normal' currency?
 
If it's the miners who have been paying the scalpers, I can stop blaming "the *****s who buy from scalpers" and start blaming "the *****s who speculate in virtual currency." (censored word is one indicating a not-smart person, and to my experience is not widely considered too impolite for conversation?)

We're blessed with a highly efficient global financial system. You can dial in pretty much any amount of risk you want for your portfolio, all while enjoying at least some legal protections and owning something of at least nominal tangible value. I feel like with bitcoin and their ilk, you're at way above average risk of getting ripped off in a downstream trade (or by your exchange), and past a certain volume, you're signing yourself up for being on government watchlists (although you can do that just by being a linux enthusiast as well.)
 
GPU mining is the most incredible waste of resources ever. It’s a waste of cards that could be used by real gamers. It’s damn sure a waste of electricity and it’s a waste of thermal heat going into our atmosphere (unless you use the rig to heat your house?)

NVIDIA and AMD need to sell cards directly to consumers, one at a time, to ensure real gamers get them.

That said: Cryptocurrency is being resurrected by institutional buying. The average investor is better in stocks.
Yes!! of Gamers, by Gamers, For Gamers!! (Allelujah, Allelujah!)
 
Say what you will, but cryptocurrencies are more valuable than gaming.

"Hi, I'd like to buy a TV with the process of playing Chess please. NightAntilli classes "playing a game" as a financial transaction apparently..." :joy:

But can you create a currency that is non-consumable (unlike Gold that can be used for other things), AND durable (unlike paper that deteriorates over time or can be burned), AND easily portable (unlike Gold), AND highly divisible (unlike Gold), AND easily transactable (unlike gold), AND counterfeit proof (unlike fiat), AND scarce (unlike fiat), AND programmable (unlike fiat & gold), AND decentralized, without using so much energy?

The answer is yes. You simply create a digital currency with the rate of work toned back to sane levels that actually represent the far slower changing value of goods & services without Bitcoin's hyper-deflationary junk bubble economics. The issue isn't that crypto-currencies aren't useful, the issue is the completely arbitrary and nonsensical "economics" behind wasting hundreds of billions of $ in energy costs over their lifespan is almost completely divorced from reality of the real-world economy.

The only way your argument flies is to degrade Bitcoin's value to 'just' another currency.

"Normal" currencies? What is even a 'normal' currency?

What is a "normal currency"? One that actually fulfils the criteria of one : 1. Short term stability (no wild month by month volatility to actually give faith for native pricing), and 2. Liquidity (no currency shortages when used on a larger scale). Bitcoin has failed miserably at both every single year of its life. Currencies by definition are supposed to be stable, ie, not supposed to go down OR up. Why do you think China don't want a mega-appreciating Renminbi and underpeg it to the USD? Because it would make exports more expensive and less competitive vs neighbours. "Bitcoin economics" would literally kill off any country's export economy stone dead.

The "elephant in the room" is that everything completely falls apart when you do native pricing (set a static price in BTC, not simply price in USD then work out the USD -> BTC exchange rate) with massive day to day fluctuations. Imagine being a baker seeing the price of bread in Bitcoins change from 2 to 0.002 in the space of mere months when literally nothing about the demand for bread, bakery operating costs, supply of wheat, population size, etc, is changing more than +/-5%. Pretend the USD doesn't exist, and there's only BTC vs Bread. What do you think a 1,000x change is supposed to be "reflecting"? The bubble "values" are completely worthless vs actual real-world trade, which is why almost nothing (except Ransomware) is priced natively in Bitcoins. It's priced in USD, EUR, etc, and the Bitcoin equivalent gets asked for then rapidly exchanged back into something more stable.

Saying Bitcoin must be 30000:1 vs the $ "because fiat is worthless" is complete nonsense because if you price up "fiat" in tangible commodities (eg, the value of USD measured in barrels of oil / tonnes of copper / bushels of wheat), literally nothing has soared in value 30,000x in 10 years relative to the USD (if $50 oil was set to 50BTC at 1:1 10 years ago and all fiat disappeared leaving only native BTC, do you think after 10 years that BTC equivalent of $0.0016 is a "fair price for oil" bearing in mind it still cost many thousands of times more to actually produce? :laughing:

If all fiat currencies disappeared overnight, and you valued BTC in commodities year-on-year, the illusion that Bitcoin's 30,000x "wealth increase" per decade is anything other than an artificial hyper-deflationary bubble would instantly pop (and the only thing propping that up is ironically a fiat-like faith that it's "worth" solely what someone is still willing to pay, not because it's backed by anything). What a few geeks who are great at explaining Blockchains but extremely cr*p at economics really want with this stuff is a digital get-rich-quick scheme, but keep trying to dress that up to be something it simply isn't. Repeat after me - Currencies are not stocks...
 
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"Hi, I'd like to buy a TV with the process of playing Chess please. NightAntilli classes "playing a game" as a financial transaction apparently..." :joy:



The answer is yes. You simply create a digital currency with the rate of work toned back to sane levels that actually represent the far slower changing value of goods & services without Bitcoin's hyper-deflationary junk bubble economics. The issue isn't that crypto-currencies aren't useful, the issue is the completely arbitrary and nonsensical "economics" behind wasting hundreds of billions of $ in energy costs over their lifespan is almost completely divorced from reality of the real-world economy.



What is a "normal currency"? One that actually fulfils the criteria of one : 1. Short term stability (no wild month by month volatility to actually give faith for native pricing), and 2. Liquidity (no currency shortages when used on a larger scale). Bitcoin has failed miserably at both every single year of its life. Currencies by definition are supposed to be stable, ie, not supposed to go down OR up. Why do you think China don't want a mega-appreciating Renminbi and underpeg it to the USD? Because it would make exports more expensive and less competitive vs neighbours. "Bitcoin economics" would literally kill off any country's export economy stone dead.

The "elephant in the room" is that everything completely falls apart when you do native pricing (set a static price in BTC, not simply price in USD then work out the USD -> BTC exchange rate) with massive day to day fluctuations. Imagine being a baker seeing the price of bread in Bitcoins change from 2 to 0.002 in the space of mere months when literally nothing about the demand for bread, bakery operating costs, supply of wheat, population size, etc, is changing more than +/-5%. Pretend the USD doesn't exist, and there's only BTC vs Bread. What do you think a 1,000x change is supposed to be "reflecting"? The bubble "values" are completely worthless vs actual real-world trade, which is why almost nothing (except Ransomware) is priced natively in Bitcoins. It's priced in USD, EUR, etc, and the Bitcoin equivalent gets asked for then rapidly exchanged back into something more stable.

Saying Bitcoin must be 30000:1 vs the $ "because fiat is worthless" is complete nonsense because if you price up "fiat" in tangible commodities (eg, the value of USD measured in barrels of oil / tonnes of copper / bushels of wheat), literally nothing has soared in value 30,000x in 10 years relative to the USD (if $50 oil was set to 50BTC at 1:1 10 years ago and all fiat disappeared leaving only native BTC, do you think after 10 years that BTC equivalent of $0.0016 is a "fair price for oil" bearing in mind it still cost many thousands of times more to actually produce? :laughing:

If all fiat currencies disappeared overnight, and you valued BTC in commodities year-on-year, the illusion that Bitcoin's 30,000x "wealth increase" per decade is anything other than an artificial hyper-deflationary bubble would instantly pop (and the only thing propping that up is ironically a fiat-like faith that it's "worth" solely what someone is still willing to pay, not because it's backed by anything). What a few geeks who are great at explaining Blockchains but extremely cr*p at economics really want with this stuff is a digital get-rich-quick scheme, but keep trying to dress that up to be something it simply isn't. Repeat after me - Currencies are not stocks...
Bitcoin's volatility is rarely over 5%, the most recent example being the 3/12 COVID crash.... when EVERYTHING was volatile and oil was trading at negative dollars.


Try again?
 
Bitcoin's volatility is rarely over 5%, the most recent example being the 3/12 COVID crash.... when EVERYTHING was volatile and oil was trading at negative dollars
"Rarely over 5%". Links to chart filled with double-digit spikes long before 2017. Same chart shows USD vs EUR volatility doesn't hit 1% over the whole decade. You might want to lookup what the terms means in terms of currency trading. "It's not volatile, it's just 16, 14%, 15%" = "Inflation isn't high, it's just 30% this year"... :laughing:
 
"Rarely over 5%". Links to chart filled with double-digit spikes. Same chart shows USD vs EUR volatility doesn't hit 1% over same period. You might want to lookup what the terms means... ;)
Which is why I highlighted the 3/12/20 spike as a noticeable exception in the past few years (and an exception which got everyone on the planet, not just BTC). Volatility was a sound, real criticism a decade ago, less so today.
 
Which is why I highlighted the 3/12/20 spike as a noticeable exception in the past few years (and an exception which got everyone on the planet, not just BTC).
Do you even understand the charts you're quoting to me? Hint: Click both the 60-Day BTC/USD and USD/EUR and compare the flatness of the two lines. Then swap the latter for USD/CNY and compare with BTC/USD, then swap that for USD/JPY and compare likewise. Your own chart literally shows the exact opposite of what you're claiming... Pro-tip: A "non-volatile currency" in Forex is a near flat line, not the fricken' Himalayas... :laughing:
 
Do you even understand the charts you're quoting to me? Hint: Click both the 60-Day BTC/USD and USD/EUR and compare the flatness of the two lines. Then swap the latter for USD/CNY and compare with BTC/USD, then swap that for USD/JPY and compare likewise. Your own chart literally shows the exact opposite of what you're claiming... Pro-tip: A "non-volatile currency" in Forex is a near flat line, not the fricken' Himalayas... :laughing:
The lack of volatility in state currencies is maintained by parlor tricks that are becoming increasingly unsustainable. 22% of all USD ever were made last year. Volatility is coming for statist dollars, sooner or later, and if ASUS's planned price hikes are any indication, it's already begun:


That's where you are wrong. It's not just you. It is a group of people needlessly burning up resources for no value. That is other than to promote a system that scams people left and right.
Please get back to us when you've caught up to 2014 at the earliest.
 
Looks like I won't be able to do my new build at all, prices are still absurd and inventory non-existent on GPU's especially. And it's no good doing a build with last gen stuff as prices for say Turing and Navi 10 are still absurd and prices on AMD Zen 2 have all risen too. I am getting sick of my old 2011 Ivy bridge PC although it still works fine I need something a lot faster not just for gaming but actual work.
 
The answer is yes. You simply create a digital currency with the rate of work toned back to sane levels that actually represent the far slower changing value of goods & services without Bitcoin's hyper-deflationary junk bubble economics. The issue isn't that crypto-currencies aren't useful, the issue is the completely arbitrary and nonsensical "economics" behind wasting hundreds of billions of $ in energy costs over their lifespan is almost completely divorced from reality of the real-world economy.
That will either not be secure, or will not be decentralized.
I'll just say that there's a reason Ethereum is switching from PoW to PoS. Not that I expect you to know what that is. Your understanding of the space is clearly lacking, which is pretty understandable. During the initial years of the internet, people had the same opinion about it as you are having now about crypto.

What is a "normal currency"? One that actually fulfils the criteria of one : 1. Short term stability (no wild month by month volatility to actually give faith for native pricing), and 2. Liquidity (no currency shortages when used on a larger scale). Bitcoin has failed miserably at both every single year of its life. Currencies by definition are supposed to be stable, ie, not supposed to go down OR up. Why do you think China don't want a mega-appreciating Renminbi and underpeg it to the USD? Because it would make exports more expensive and less competitive vs neighbours. "Bitcoin economics" would literally kill off any country's export economy stone dead.
Oh. I guess you don't know there's such a thing as DXY (the dollar currency index). And currencies are not "stable", otherwise there would be no Forex market. They are artificially kept stable through pumping of money, I.e. inflation, I.e. stealing your wealth.
Just FYI, from March of last year to now, the value of the US dollar dropped 13%.
And from 2001 to 2008, it dropped a whopping 42%. So much for "stable"...

The "elephant in the room" is that everything completely falls apart when you do native pricing (set a static price in BTC, not simply price in USD then work out the USD -> BTC exchange rate) with massive day to day fluctuations. Imagine being a baker seeing the price of bread in Bitcoins change from 2 to 0.002 in the space of mere months when literally nothing about the demand for bread, bakery operating costs, supply of wheat, population size, etc, is changing more than +/-5%. Pretend the USD doesn't exist, and there's only BTC vs Bread. What do you think a 1,000x change is supposed to be "reflecting"? The bubble "values" are completely worthless vs actual real-world trade, which is why almost nothing (except Ransomware) is priced natively in Bitcoins. It's priced in USD, EUR, etc, and the Bitcoin equivalent gets asked for then rapidly exchanged back into something more stable.
If you compare the price of bread to Gold, Silver, or Oil, or whichever other commodity, the same applies. Have you ever wondered why some places you go to on vacation are cheaper than where you live, and others are more expensive...?
If the US dollar doesn't exist, there is no other value to compare it to, and ultimately all prices stabilize based on how many satoshis a piece of bread is worth.

Saying Bitcoin must be 30000:1 vs the $ "because fiat is worthless" is complete nonsense because if you price up "fiat" in tangible commodities (eg, the value of USD measured in barrels of oil / tonnes of copper / bushels of wheat), literally nothing has soared in value 30,000x in 10 years relative to the USD (if $50 oil was set to 50BTC at 1:1 10 years ago and all fiat disappeared leaving only native BTC, do you think after 10 years that BTC equivalent of $0.0016 is a "fair price for oil" bearing in mind it still cost many thousands of times more to actually produce?
Consider how many trillions of dollars exist. Then consider how many Bitcoins exist.
Now consider that only the dollar and a million units of some product exists.
Now consider that only bitcoin and a million units of the same product exists.

Right now we have about 2 trillion dollars in circulation, the fair price for one unit of that product would be 2 million dollars.
Right now we have about 20 million bitcoin in circulation (rounded up for ease of calculation), the fair price for one unit of that same product would be 20 bitcoin.
That means that in this scenario, each Bitcoin is worth 1 million dollars.

Now, fiat can be printed indefinitely. Say that in a couple of years, there are 4 trillion dollars in circulation. Bitcoin will only ever have 21 million in existence. For ease of calculation, let's round it to 20 million again... That means, that in those couple of years, the value of Bitcoin will have practically doubled compared to the US dollar to 2 million dollars. That's how it works.

If all fiat currencies disappeared overnight, and you valued BTC in commodities year-on-year, the illusion that Bitcoin's 30,000x "wealth increase" per decade is anything other than an artificial hyper-deflationary bubble would instantly pop (and the only thing propping that up is ironically a fiat-like faith that it's "worth" solely what someone is still willing to pay, not because it's backed by anything). What a few geeks who are great at explaining Blockchains but extremely cr*p at economics really want with this stuff is a digital get-rich-quick scheme, but keep trying to dress that up to be something it simply isn't. Repeat after me - Currencies are not stocks...
On the contrary; Bitcoin would have to be adopted by everyone. That means that those 21 million Bitcoin will have to be divided among ~8 billion people.

To again put things in perspective, we now have 2 trillion dollars in circulation. If everyone on the planet had the same amount of dollars, assuming a population of 8 billion people, everyone would have 250 dollars.

If we have 20 million bitcoins in circulation, and everyone on the planet had the same amount of Bitcoin, they would all have 0.0025 Bitcoin.

Therefore Bitcoin, if used by everyone (not everyone uses dollars either), it would literally be worth 100k times more than the US dollar.
 
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Can cryptocurrency miners develop their own dedicated hardware to mining rather than using GPUs? I appreciate GPUs probably do a very good job but would a dedicated component not do the job better?
gpus are still more accessible than most asics, and have insane resale value right now (I'm still receiving good offers for pascals), while asic can potentially turn into a deadweight. gpus are just easier to deal with
 
gpus are still more accessible than most asics, and have insane resale value right now (I'm still receiving good offers for pascals), while asic can potentially turn into a deadweight. gpus are just easier to deal with
I'm pretty sure my humble 1070 Founder's Edition is more expensive now than when I bought it. :scream:
 
*eyeroll* I'm not the one that needs to get back to reality.
Your reactionary pablum is as old as the invention of fire, and if we listened to it as a species we'd still be crouching in caves, eating raw meat, because "dammit we need them sticks to hunt, ya can't burn 'em!"
 
I wont be upgrading.
I hope everyone says the same as revenge for this torturous treatment from amd and nvidia.
 
an absolutely staggering divorced from reality tirade
I honestly thought you were serious about understanding what the issue is, but I just stopped reading here. "If there were no fiat, everyone would use Bitcoin. All 7.7bn people. Even the +40% of the global population in the developing world without reliable Internet plus those without electricity. And everyone would get 0.0025 Bitcoin worth $100,000 to $1m each or $250-$2500 wealth and 99-99.9% of young people would enjoy being homeless when the money supply is so starved barely 1 in every 100-1000 could get a BTC mortgage. And people will rejoice when governments naturally end healthcare, education, law enforcement, basic infrastructure, etc, due to inability to acquire funding. And a shrinking money supply will work perfectly on a planet with a growing population..." :facepalm:

Your Anarcho-Communist "utopia" of basically inflicting severe currency shortages on everyone to an extent of a permanent new 1930's Super Depression + liquidity crisis + no functional govt out of misplaced over-compensation for "I hate it when govts print too much money" seems to be the level of almost childlike completely divorced from reality ultra-idealism cluelessness of how the real world works for which there simply is no real intelligent debate to be had. Have a good day. LOL.
 
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Remember the article a few days back about resolution scaling? There was a lot of skeptical people on that but it looks like you might want to reconsider it: if Nvidia finally puts some tenser cores on the 3050 then you could end up saving several hundred bucks by upscaling 1080p with DLSS 2.0 (Or worst method for games not supporting that)

Because if the last mining shortage was bad, one that was preceded by paper launches means you might not be able to get anything better for all of 2021.
 
You mean playing a game for time killing is worth more than maintaining a decentralized network with actual use cases...?
Can you please share a few of those "actual use cases"? I'm genuinely curioius. So far, everyone I have seen is using bitcoin (or other cryptocurrencies) as an investment alternative, and that's fine by me (however stupid and wasteful I think the whole scenario is, is irrelevant: people have the right to invest into whatever they like), however, not any "real life" use cases. Yes, in 2015, with some of my colleagues, we made a few "fun transaction" with bitcoin (it was around 600 at the time) to "welcome the future" (I was working in an "innovation lab" at the time), but that was just that: fun. It never replaced any function of any actual financial service in our lives. So, like I've said, I'm genuinely curious: what have I missed?
 
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I think, overall it is a kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy: if the BC price is above a certain level (and rising), it becomes profitable again to mine with non-ASIC resources (e.g. graphics cards) too, wchich will push the price further up, generating even more demand for GPUs...until the whole process overheats (and probably collapses, at least to some extent).
I was really interested to buy either a 3070 or a 6800 (both are impressive), but it seems that will have to wait....on the other hand, I wish that was the biggest problem in my life :) :)
 
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