Harley-Davidson's first all-electric motorcycle is now available to pre-order

captaincranky

Posts: 16,065   +4,867
"Just like traditional EVs, LiveWire can produce 100 percent of its rated torque the instant the throttle is called upon."

How can 100% of rated torque can be transferred to the rear wheel when you have chain drive powertrain?!!!
Some losses there...
In reality, every electric motor delivers 100% of it's rated power at STALL.

Depending on the volume of electricity available, and the duration of that stall, any electric motor will also self destruct under those conditions.

As for power train losses. First, the chain drive is the most efficient power transfer strategy available.

Now, given a gear ratio of 1:1 once the slack is taken out of the chain, effectively there is no power loss at stall, and little at speed. Granted, you have to keep the chain well oiled to reap those results.

Drive shaft based strategies are the least efficient method of power transfer in bikes, and you'll notice that most of the bikes introduced with high performance as their salient purpose, still use chains
 
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Kytetiger

Posts: 48   +14
I like the Iron 883 firstly for it's comfort...


But this story reminds me of South Park's Motorcycle Gang Episode ^^
 
S

senketsu

30-friggin-grand? There isn't even close to enough bike here to justify that cost. The biggest things their website brags about - Adjustable suspension, tires, and a touchscreen. And "Instant torque" to get you to 60mph slower than a modern 600cc.

I'm in full support of electric motorcycles. This one's missing every mark though.
absolutely.
110 mi. is roughly 170 km. On a GSXR-600 which has a 17 litre fuel tank I've hit 370+ km, might have made 400, but might have run out of gas too.
Adjustable suspension, yeah, for 8 grand ($12,000 new CAD) my bike has a Nissin fully adjustable front forks, fully adjustable rear shock, Brembo monobloc brakes and is chain drive. Engine can hit 14,500 rpm tho…..max power at 13,500 rpm. Keep it under 6000 rpm and you ride around nicely. Take it over 6000 and you start to unleash the beast.
 

Jeff Re

Posts: 222   +198
[QUOTE="With 35 G (tax, destination charge, etc.) you can buy two electric cars![/QUOTE]
Wow, your country has some great tax rebates!!!
 

MilwaukeeMike

Posts: 3,211   +1,455
Milwaukee area resident here. The Harley sound gets really...really old after 1 summer of obnoxious stoplight revving.

I love motorcycles. I have a v-twin. The difference is mine isn't aircooled, it's quieter, and makes nearly twice the hp/tq with comparable displacement. "Millennials" want value, which means performance. Not noise and chrome. Or a ridiculously overpriced electric bike with no enticing tech.
Amen brother! Every summer when they do their Harley Anniversary reunion I want to go on vacation for a week. I work downtown and the rumbling is 100% constant. However, they'll tell you that loud noise helps keep them safe as you won't ever miss one in your blind spot.

Limited range, absorbent price, and no great rumble? It might be a bike, but it ain't no Harley
The 100 mile range doesn't matter. Look at the sitting position... it's bent over like a sport bike. I used to own a sport bike and 30 miles was about all you'd ever want to go because it's not very comfortable. This bike is not comparable to a Harley you'd take cross-country. To work and back and weekends around town is all this is for - just like a sport bike.

I think the price will hold them back the most. If this were $9,999 they'd have a winner.
 
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cuerdc

Posts: 210   +62
Great...except stupidly overpriced, same can be said for tesla, electric vehicles not quite there yet. Focus should be on low cost free to ride electric pedal bikes, I'm sure would reduce traffic and emissions considerably.
 

mbrowne5061

Posts: 1,523   +846
"$30k for a vehicle that will only take you 110 miles? Which really means 90 miles because you don't want to tempt fate being stuck in the middle of nowhere without a charger nearby."

110 miles for driver only... If you have a trip companion and any other loads, that number would be around 85 miles! With 35 G (tax, destination charge, etc.) you can buy two electric cars!
Which electric cars are you buying that are 15-20K?
 
As far as I know, Harley's sound is not trademarked. They tried to register the sound as a trademark, but gave up in the attempt when other motorcycle manufacturers opposed it. They couldn't trademark it because Harley has not been the only motorcycle that has a 45 degree V-twin and common crankpin arrangement that produces the distinctive engine sound.
 

captaincranky

Posts: 16,065   +4,867
I like the Iron 883 firstly for it's comfort...


But this story reminds me of South Park's Motorcycle Gang Episode ^^
Oh for god's sake, use cubic inches to measure the Sporty's displacement, which is 55 CI.

The Japanese started that CC sh!t in the American market. For example, "the Honda 'Superhawk' has an astounding 305 CC displacement". Which amounts to less than 19 cubic inches. To the upside. the little junkers didn't leak oil over the driveway, and got at least a hundred mpg.

Harley had to start marketing its bikes in cubic centimeters, since the average ,."we're number #1" American, is closer to about "we're number #30", worldwide in math skills.
 
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captaincranky

Posts: 16,065   +4,867
As far as I know, Harley's sound is not trademarked. They tried to register the sound as a trademark, but gave up in the attempt when other motorcycle manufacturers opposed it. They couldn't trademark it because Harley has not been the only motorcycle that has a 45 degree V-twin and common crankpin arrangement that produces the distinctive engine sound.
If I had to guess it would be Indian motorcycles which carried a similar design to the Harley engine. AFAIK, Indian is defunct (again). (Needs a fact check).

Harley's engine is essentially 2 cylinders of an aircraft radial engine, that also has a single crank pin, to which all the con rods connect.

Here's a cutaway video of the Pratt & Whitney "Double Wasp":


Because this is a cutaway engine, only two connecting rods are shown. Were the engine intact, every hole you see in the crank journal, would have a piston rod.

The one major difference in the Harley motor, is the single point connection of both piston rods. One rod is "U" shaped at the crank end, the other has a standard end, as you would find in an automobile engine
 
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wiyosaya

Posts: 5,321   +3,424
Great...except stupidly overpriced, same can be said for tesla, electric vehicles not quite there yet. Focus should be on low cost free to ride electric pedal bikes, I'm sure would reduce traffic and emissions considerably.
I see it as yet another example of brand marketing hubris attempting to cash in on the EV fad. The fact you can buy an Nissan Leaf for approximately the same cost is clear evidence that this is astronomically over-priced.
 
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Underdog

Posts: 154   +77
Oh for god's sake, use cubic inches to measure the Sporty's displacement, which is 55 CI.

The Japanese started that CC sh!t in the American market. For example, "the Honda 'Superhawk' has an astounding 305 CC displacement". Which amounts to less than 19 cubic inches. To the upside. the little junkers didn't leak oil over the driveway, and got at least a hundred mpg.

Harley had to start marketing its bikes in cubic centimeters, since the average ,."we're number #1" American, is closer to about "we're number #30", worldwide in math skills.
Quoting an engine displacement in ccs would appear to be a sound idea as not many countries outside the USA use inches for anything. If HD wanted to sell their goods abroad then some awareness outside the continental US is of great benefit. Personally I don't give a rat's backside how they're measured as long as they pack plenty of torque and make a nice noise.
 

wiyosaya

Posts: 5,321   +3,424
It's still one of those "chicken or the egg" type questions, since you can't copy the sound, without copying the engine design, almost verbatim. Unless of course, you "fake the sound" via modification of the exhaust system. Were a maker to do that, so as to infringe on Harley's customer base, then trademarking the sound of their bikes make an eminent amount of sense. That's whether your tender ears agree with it, or not.
Maybe HD will make a recording of their standard sound, and then play it through some speaker on this bike. After all, recording is another way of reproducing the sound.

My bad - it appears that HD withdrew its application - however - HD's lawyers insist they retain the trademark rights to the sound even without it being registered. https://www.justanswer.com/motorcycle/2dilq-harley-davidson-sound-trademarked-patented.html

Well, maybe, maybe not. The street level noise level is, (whether you admit it or not), directly interpreted by other humans as an indicator of how much power is being produced.

Or to the contrary as we sometimes scornfully yelled at cars with glass pack mufflers, but without any other obvious performance enhancement, "it must be fast, listen to all the noise it makes".

All of this is based on the animal side of our nature. The human male doesn't have the plumage of a peacock, the roar of a male lion, or the trumpet of a bull elephant. Accordingly, he feels the necessity to create by any means necessary, sounds and images based in nature, to attract a mate. (Or at least, a mate for the night).
True. In fact, it mirrors a trait in wild monkeys ;) - https://phys.org/news/2017-06-wild-monkeys-loud-relative-strength.html

So, the louder the roar, becomes, (perhaps subconsciously), it becomes interpreted as, the more masculine the male. Which, I would assume you would find extremely offensive, because of your deep affliction with, "Sheldon Leonard Syndrome". :p

Now, as for Ford "faking the sound of the mustang", you still have to keep in mind that the less restrictive an exhaust system is, the louder it will be. The work Ford may have performed on their car's exhaust, could more correctly be termed as "altering the tonal spectrum", or "equalization", as it's more commonly called. It's very simple, you filter out the yapping bark, but leave the robust low frequency growl. So instead of the yipping of a Chihuahua, you have the growl of a tiger.
Which is, of course, marketing, or yet another way to enhance the co-dependency between company and its weak-minded customers. :imp:

Since I come from "the muscle car era", we used to interpret the mods and performance potential of a car's engine an entirely different way That's by judging how it idled. Fluctuating idle speed, along with an overall roughness, indicated the amount of "cam" that was in the engine. In other words the camshaft's lift and duration is a predictor of how well the engine will perform in the upper end of its RPM range. High lift, and long duration camshafts, allow both the intake and exhaust valves to be open at the same time, which in turn causes the rough idle. At high RPMs, the exhaust leaving the engine actually has "a poor man's supercharger effect", by allowing the incoming fuel mixture to be sucked into the engine by the exiting exhaust pulse rarefaction.
I assume it is muscle-car aficionados that assume sound is always an indicator of engine machismo. It would be interesting to do a blind comparison of sound between a well-regarded muscle car and some supercar. I have to wonder what the results wold be. Then again, a wrench in the works would be to throw in the sound of some high-performance EV.

If this interests you, (which I doubt), you can read this article from the university of Colorado, about the underlying math: https://www.engr.colostate.edu/~allan/fluids/page7/page7.html Frankly, I can only manage algebra while I'm still in the algebra classroom. Perhaps you'll fare a bit better.
I'm more interested in the science. This is CFD. However, I think this kind of thing is becoming less important as EVs become the one ring to rule them all. :laughing:

You do know that car companies spend millions of dollars in research on perfecting the sound of their car doors slamming, don't you? By your definition, their door slams are "fake".
See my comments above about marketing. ;)
You know, I don't even have speakers attached to my computers, since the noises made by Windows are so obnoxious, at any volume.
I have speakers, but only turn them on when I specifically want to listen to something. I have not done it, but the obnoxious windows sounds can be turned off.

However, I can tolerate music that I enjoy at ungodly high volumes for extended periods of time.
As I see it, there are key multiple keys to that including production values and having enough power to reproduce the source music without distortion. Its amped-up distortion, AFAIK, that will damage ears.

Here's a sample of one of the cleanest ever, IMO, recordings.

Inversely, I need earplugs when I'm exposed to rap, punk, and disco.
I break out in hives when I am exposed to these music genres. :D

I'm good to at least 110 Db on this though. Give it a listen. Let me know what you think:

The female vocalist, Floor Jansen, is widely regarded as the most versatile and likely the best girl singer in all of this genre, which is, "symphonic metal"

Too much? This is (only very slightly) tamer

The second track, "The Haunting", is an adaptation from Goethe's "Faust", (*) where the devil tricks Faust into thinking he is the hero's dead girlfriend. Jeez, those guitars are noisy though. Did you pick up the key change at 2:46?

(*) I didn't want you to think this was just some illiterate wanking by some heavy metal Harley driving thugs.
Interesting music, however, I would not make it a staple. I do appreciate it when an artist interprets the classics or finds a way to express some wisdom in their work. In fact, that is typically what I consider among the best of musical compositions.

Though the quality of this particular YouTub recording is severely lacking (the original is significantly better) here is something to try
I suspect that this might be too tame for you, though, so be sure to set an alarm to wake you at the end. :laughing:
 

captaincranky

Posts: 16,065   +4,867
Maybe HD will make a recording of their standard sound, and then play it through some speaker on this bike. After all, recording is another way of reproducing the sound.
Yes, but if you wanted the sound of straight pipes, it might actually reduce the already abysmal range even further.
My bad - it appears that HD withdrew its application - however - HD's lawyers insist they retain the trademark rights to the sound even without it being registered. https://www.justanswer.com/motorcycle/2dilq-harley-davidson-sound-trademarked-patented.html

Which is, of course, marketing, or yet another way to enhance the co-dependency between company and its weak-minded customers. :imp:
All American consumers are in one way or another, weak minded. Harley's just obviate themselves by wearing a sh!tload of denim and drinking beer by the keg
I assume it is muscle-car aficionados that assume sound is always an indicator of engine machismo. It would be interesting to do a blind comparison of sound between a well-regarded muscle car and some supercar. I have to wonder what the results wold be.
Believe it or not, Harley installs a lower lift, shorter duration cam on one of the valves in their Sportser engined, to reduce the "lope" of the engine at idle. (The engine has a separate cam for each valve). The first step in souping one up, is to install the "4th peak cam".
Then again, a wrench in the works would be to throw in the sound of some high-performance EV.
And what would that be, Musk's newest "update", the fart track from, "Blazing Saddles"?
I have speakers, but only turn them on when I specifically want to listen to something. I have not done it, but the obnoxious windows sounds can be turned off.
I know, I found how to do it once. However, I couldn't find it the other night when the "double doink" sound went off every time I picked up the keyboard. Maybe I was too annoyed to be rational.

As I see it, there are key multiple keys to that including production values and having enough power to reproduce the source music without distortion. Its amped-up distortion, AFAIK, that will damage ears.
All loud noises will damage your ears. You just have to "pick your poison", so to speak.
Here's a sample of one of the cleanest ever, IMO, recordings.
Hm, about "Pink Floyd"/ Early Floyd really was just stoner music in its early years. Roger Waters is in his own right, a monumental waste of studio time. Very early "Floyd", was really Waters making odd ball noises in the background, so that a bunch of potheads could sit in front of the stereo and try to figure them out. His solo releases followed that formula to one degree or another.

"DSotM" managed to stay in the Billboarf top 100 for years. However, the album that clinched their legend was, "The Wall". While Waters had a huge part in it, David Gilmour established himself as the voice and consummate melodic power guitarist. His solo on "Comfortably Numb", peppers the web with versions, covers, and tutorials on how to play it, along with how to get his guitar sound. Which incidentally involves a crap load of distortion and delay. Some people got into "The Wall" and never came back. In my case, I think it's their best album, but never was at the top of my "got to play once a day" priorities.
I break out in hives when I am exposed to these music genres. :D
, Hm, I'll have to check my skin next time Homo erectus drives by out front with "explicit" rap playing as loud as it can go. (I'm allowing for the power amp clipping at at least 50% in that assessment).

The most ironic in all of music is the fact you need to find the cleanest and loudest stereo you can find, to accurately reproduce the gross amount produced by pedals and amps in modern music. (for decades in reality). BTW, did you know that musical instrument amps are probably the major reason. vacuum tubes are still in production. They "break up on power amps, and produce gross amount of "harmonic distortion", which people quite unknowingly, find very pleasant.(Intermodulation distortion is another matter entirely, ow my ears).
Interesting music, however, I would not make it a staple. I do appreciate it when an artist interprets the classics or finds a way to express some wisdom in their work. In fact, that is typically what I consider among the best of musical compositions
Well first, those two examples I posted were sort of more "power", or "progressive".metal, not truly "symphonic" metal, (They do tend to split hairs within the metal genre as a whole)

Though the quality of this particular YouTub recording is severely lacking (the original is significantly better) here is something to tryI suspect that this might be too tame for you, though, so be sure to set an alarm to wake you at the end. :laughing:
It didn't put me to sleep, as I listened to it while I was posting this reply. I may have nodded off a bit, but we'll blame that on my not finishing my breakfast coffee

The whole "metal fetish" I'm experiencing my be me going into, "my second teenager-hood", prior to the dreaded "second childhood" phase.

However, I couldn't abide the first wave of heavy metal at all/. Despite his proficiency on the guitar, I never have, and never will, own anything by Van Halen, Metallica, Slayer, ad. naseum. In fact, they drove me to country during the 90's

The modern metal I embrace, is much more melodic, heavily orchestrated, and very often fronted by opera trained sopranos, such as Floor Jansen, who was showcased in the Evergrey track I posted. (BTW, she's a vocal coach in her spare time). So, "opera metal" maybe? (It's that hair splitting I spoke of earlier.

I have however, (for better or worse), been around for decades, and picked a few other musical listening habits along the way. Here's some examples:

Al Stewart takes 10 minutes to sum up the German invasion of Russia in WWII (70's)
Along with their defeat and expulsion.
David Cousins with "The Strawbs", extrapolates today's "opiod crisis", with Homer's "Iliad":
"Heroin" plus a trailing "E" equals "Heroine". But I'm sure you knew that).

Loreena McKennitt Now here's a musician I could never convince a bunch of "pop heads" was any good.
Maybe I'll have better luck with you. Here she puts Alfred Noyes' "The Highwayman" to music. I think this track was recorded at the Alhambra. but not sure.
Well, you did say you loved the classics

Here's true "symphonic metal" A home made video puts scenes from "Game of Thrones" to "Within Temptations'", "Let us Burn"
 
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captaincranky

Posts: 16,065   +4,867
And lastly IMO, one of the most beautiful songs ever written, Xandria's "Forevermore".

This borders on "opera metal". Listen to the lead guitar part. You'll hear it's infected with the spirit of David Gilmour..

Just for the record, my home stereo is powered by electricity, not some inefficient steam or ICE, fired by gas or coal
 
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wiyosaya

Posts: 5,321   +3,424
And lastly IMO, one of the most beautiful songs ever written, Xandria's "Forevermore".

This borders on "opera metal". Listen to the lead guitar part. You'll hear it's infected with the spirit of David Gilmour..
Just for the record, my home stereo is powered by electricity, not some inefficient steam or ICE, fired by gas or coal
No steam, ICE, gas, or coal? :poop: I thought that was something else we would have in common. :laughing:;)

Loreena McKennitt Now here's a musician I could never convince a bunch of "pop heads" was any good.
I need no convincing there. I am familiar with Loreena McKennitt, and I like her music.

As an aside - back years ago, the 70's ;), pop music was the devil's music in the crowd that I ran with. Even pop rock was the devil's music. ;) We listened to a station in my area that is no longer, however, it never followed the pattern of playing the same tunes ever hour on the hour. The diversity of music played was what attracted us.

I enjoy a wide variety of music. Here's a few things I put together. Well off-topic, but some might enjoy the ride.

I saw this live at my first concert - back in the days before Yes went to the dark side and they toured with what might have been the first laser light show -
EDIT: Yes guitarist Steve Howe was also classically trained.

Another classically trained singer, Annie Haslam -

Probably an obscure artist in the US, but some nice guitar work in these - not necessarily inspired by David Gilmour;) -

Probably also not that well-known, none-the-less, I like much of their work
 
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wiyosaya

Posts: 5,321   +3,424
Part 2 ;)
A few that have been used in film/TV
I particularly like this version of this first one
Some wisdom in this one, IMO
I like this one - though I don't necessarily like everything in this genre - good for the imaginative mind that enjoys the company of women, IMO ;)
And finally, another obscure experience on the edge of space and time:D -
 
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