On your second point given that China is so developed now in major cities and nationalism so strong, I think there's a lesser chance of people wanting to stay in the west after receiving their education.
Intel apologizes to China after warning suppliers about Xinjiang region
- Thread starter midian182
- Start date
I'm glad the UK lost their tech leadership because it meant that the USA had already taken it over.
I see no reason for the USA to hold the title when they've lost it in reality.
Settle and solve those deep, systemic economic and moral issues first. In reality, a house is built from the foundations up.
Vulcanproject
Posts: 1,698 +3,210
The technological baton was handed to the USA probably around the first world war. Even prior to the great depression. With Europe destroyed, economies melted and resources scarce it set the whole continent back either immediately or shortly after it ended. World War part two only magnified the effect and displayed it fully when the USA finally came out of isolationism. Call it half raw resource availability, half brain drain from Europe itself.
As the space race joke goes, the USA's German scientists were better than the Soviet's German scientists. That and they had more cash.
Bluescreendeath
Posts: 397 +620
That is true, and not just for educated people from China, but educated people from around the world. We're beginning to see some people from Eastern Europe, Russia, and South Asia travel to mainland China for work.
The USA has to step up its game in not only providing a top notch education and top notch institutions to attract skilled immigrants, but also a conducive economic, social, and political environment that convinces those skilled immigrants to remain in the USA.
captaincranky
Posts: 19,684 +8,825
We already provide, "top notch education". Which is partly the reason our college grads are straddled with student loans they won't be able to pay in a lifetime The trouble is, we in the US are so money hungry, we'll take anyone's money, for any clandestine purpose.
The prime example of this is, a US flight school took money for flight lessons in commercial aviation from Muslim extremists, who "didn't need to know how to land". And the next thing you know, those very "gentlemen", hijacked airliners, and flew them into the World Trade Center towers.
Now, I do think it's interesting that people from various countries are traveling to China for work..However., I would like you to answer this question, "does Foxconn still have their suicide nets up"? That's a fair question, since there's "so many good jobs available in China". I would suggest the possibility that there's "no good jobs for them", in their native countries, and that's why they're emigrating to China.
Our major corporations have been taking advantage of good employees from other countries.for quite awhile
In point of fact, "60 Minutes" did a piece about that very issue. US companies were importing H2-B immigrants, then forcing American workers to train them to replace them at their jobs.
BTW, if this experiment has any validity in relation or relevance to human societies in general, the US is doomed already:
Universe 25: The Mouse "Utopia" Experiment That Turned Into An Apocalypse
Universe 25: The Mouse "Utopia" Experiment That Turned Into An Apocalypse
www.iflscience.com
Last edited:
Shadowboxer
Posts: 2,074 +1,655
As a Brit who used to work in China, I can assure you that the Chinese do not do it better than the west. If you think labour laws are weak in the west prepare to get your mind blown. In China people work all day everyday, one day off a week is a luxury and there is pressure for people to work on their day off. You mention their trains, the trains are fine sure but if you want to drive you basically have to enter a lottery. I believe about 1 out of every thousand people has a driving licence. As for cashless payment, I haven’t withdrawn cash in over 6 months in the U.K. at this point. It’s not really a big deal lol.
China is a truly horrifying place, it’s scary how they just put up with it. The culture there is that of helplessness to an extremely authoritarian and evil government, it’s so far removed from the west where people have constitutional rights and do actually tend to get them. People that support the authoritarian, genocidal Chinese regime are truly disgusting individuals.
Bluescreendeath
Posts: 397 +620
High education costs isn't a symptom of a top notch education, but a symptom of greed and a backward system of socialized losses combined with privatized gains as a bad form of corporate subsidy. This is 21st corporate socialism...the ironically more accepted form of socialism here in the US. IIRC, top tier or Ivy league schools used to cost 1/16 or 1/20 the cost it does now, while minimum wage was only 1/5 what it was now. In 1970, Harvard University cost $4000 a year. In 2021, it costs $70,000 for tuition and room n board. Federal minimum wage was $1.45 back in 1970, and is $7.25 today. Somehow our min wage only went up by 5x, but our tuition costs went up by 16x-20x.We already provide, "top notch education". Which is partly the reason our college grads are straddled with student loans they won't be able to pay in a lifetime The trouble is, we in the US are so money hungry, we'll take anyone's money, for any clandestine purpose.
The prime example of this is, a US flight school took money for flight lessons in commercial aviation from Muslim extremists, who "didn't need to know how to land". And the next thing you know, those very "gentlemen", hijacked airliners, and flew them into the World Trade Center towers.
Now, I do think it's interesting that people from various countries are traveling to China for work..However., I would like you to answer this question, "does Foxconn still have their suicide nets up"? That's a fair question, since there's "so many good jobs available in China". I would suggest the possibility that there's "no good jobs for them", in their native countries, and that's why they're emigrating to China.
Our major corporations have been taking advantage of good employees from other countries.for quite awhile
In point of fact, "60 Minutes" did a piece about that very issue. US companies were importing H2-B immigrants, then forcing American workers to train them to replace them at their jobs.
BTW, if this experiment has any validity in relation or relevance to human societies in general, the US is doomed already:
Universe 25: The Mouse "Utopia" Experiment That Turned Into An Apocalypse
Universe 25: The Mouse "Utopia" Experiment That Turned Into An Apocalypse
A person used to be able to pay off their student loans and college costs by working a low skilled job. Nowadays, even our garbage diploma mills charge and arm and a leg for education.
And that is why I said we need not only good education, but also a better social, political, and economic environment to attract the best and the brightest. Straddling American people with debts they can't pay off is not sustainable. And sky high tuition rates does not encourage smart immigrants people to stay and study in this country and contribute to its economy.
As for your Foxconn comment, People emigrate because there are less good jobs in their home countries. That is a given and applies everywhere. Illegal immigrants come to the US because job opportunities back in their home countries are atrocious. Russian, Chinese, etc immigrants during the Cold war came to the USA for similar reasons of jobs and opportunity. The foreigners I'm talking about aren't low iphone wage factory workers jumping off of buildings...but skilled workers like engineers, artists, architects, etc. A lot of China's tech, construction, etc industry hires skilled foreigners. There is little to no reason for a foreigner to work in a minimum wage factory job in China.
And that H1B issue can be solved by requiring corporations to pay foreign workers the same as or higher than local workers, and having the govt strictly enforce this with actual labor agency powers. Then only legitimate smart and competent foreign workers will be hired. But like those farmers in recent news who want to hire illegal immigrants for cheaper labor, people prefer profits and are willing to break the laws these days...and they get away with it because the govt doesn't have the resources to enforce half their requirements.
As for your mouse utopia collapse example, luckily, the USA is far from a utopia and isn't in any danger of overpopulation. Utopia is a pipe dream of communists.
I'd be more worried about the rupture of society from socio-political factionalism, revolutions, and civil war as seen in history rather than from some nonexistent utopia.
Last edited:
hahahanoobs
Posts: 5,219 +3,074
What you said may be true, but I was talking about technological and infrastructure advancements specifically, regardless of how they treat workers.
China is REALLY far from me. I'm more worried about what Canada and the USA does that affects my life before I start skipping my disappointment stones across the pond to China.
The lesser of two evils has no right to brag.
Last edited:
Bluescreendeath
Posts: 397 +620
High education costs isn't a symptom of a top notch education, but a symptom of greed and a backward system of socialized losses combined with privatized gains as a bad form of corporate subsidy. This is 21st corporate socialism...the ironically more accepted form of socialism here in the US. IIRC, top tier or Ivy league schools used to cost 1/16 or 1/20 the cost it does now, while minimum wage was only 1/5 what it was now. In 1970, Harvard University cost $4000 a year. In 2021, it costs $70,000 for tuition and room n board. Federal minimum wage was $1.45 back in 1970, and is $7.25 today. Somehow our min wage only went up by 5x, but our tuition costs went up by 16x-20x.We already provide, "top notch education". Which is partly the reason our college grads are straddled with student loans they won't be able to pay in a lifetime The trouble is, we in the US are so money hungry, we'll take anyone's money, for any clandestine purpose.
The prime example of this is, a US flight school took money for flight lessons in commercial aviation from Muslim extremists, who "didn't need to know how to land". And the next thing you know, those very "gentlemen", hijacked airliners, and flew them into the World Trade Center towers.
Now, I do think it's interesting that people from various countries are traveling to China for work..However., I would like you to answer this question, "does Foxconn still have their suicide nets up"? That's a fair question, since there's "so many good jobs available in China". I would suggest the possibility that there's "no good jobs for them", in their native countries, and that's why they're emigrating to China.
Our major corporations have been taking advantage of good employees from other countries.for quite awhile
In point of fact, "60 Minutes" did a piece about that very issue. US companies were importing H2-B immigrants, then forcing American workers to train them to replace them at their jobs.
BTW, if this experiment has any validity in relation or relevance to human societies in general, the US is doomed already:
Universe 25: The Mouse "Utopia" Experiment That Turned Into An Apocalypse
Universe 25: The Mouse "Utopia" Experiment That Turned Into An Apocalypse
A person used to be able to pay off their student loans and college costs by working a low skilled job. Nowadays, even our garbage diploma mills charge and arm and a leg for education.
And that is why I said we need not only good education, but also a better social, political, and economic environment to attract the best and the brightest. Straddling American people with debts they can't pay off is not sustainable. And sky high tuition rates does not encourage smart immigrants people to stay and study in this country and contribute to its economy.
As for your Foxconn comment, People emigrate because there are less good jobs in their home countries. That is a given and applies everywhere. Illegal immigrants come to the US because job opportunities back in their home countries are atrocious. Russian, Chinese, etc immigrants during the Cold war came to the USA for similar reasons of jobs and opportunity. The foreigners I'm talking about aren't low iphone wage factory workers jumping off of buildings...but skilled workers like engineers, artists, architects, etc. A lot of China's tech, construction, etc industry hires skilled foreigners. There is little to no reason for a foreigner to work in a minimum wage factory job in China.
And that H1B issue can be solved by requiring corporations to pay foreign workers the same as or higher than local workers, and having the govt strictly enforce this with actual labor agency powers. Then only legitimate smart and competent foreign workers will be hired. But like those farmers in recent news who want to hire illegal immigrants for cheaper labor, people prefer profits and are willing to break the laws these days...and they get away with it because the govt doesn't have the resources to enforce half their requirements.
As for your mouse utopia collapse example, luckily, the USA is far from a utopia and isn't in any danger of overpopulation. Utopia is a pipe dream of communists.
I'd be more worried about the rupture of society from socio-political factionalism, revolutions, and civil war as seen in history rather than from some nonexistent utopia.
captaincranky
Posts: 19,684 +8,825
You're making a ton of assumptions with regard to the "improvability" of our basic nature.
As for the "overpopulation" issue, the earth is in danger of it, whether it's Utopian or not. That's directly related to the laws of animal behavior and evolution. No apex predator can survive indefinitely without prey.
Bluescreendeath
Posts: 397 +620
I'm more realistic or pessimistic about human nature, while you seem overly optimistic about humanity's basic nature.
You made a lot of assumptions about the improvability of human nature when you cited a mouse study that was placed mice in an artifical utopian environment and claimed that it may have a relation to how the USA will collapse. That means you think the USA can achieve a utopia in the first place where all needs are met and people have to do nothing.
I'm of the opinion that human nature will make that type of utopia impossible to achieve in the first place, so that utopian mouse study has little bearing on real life.
As for overpopulation, birth rates fall when people become educated and lifespans improve. High birth rates are usually tied to countries with high infant mortality and low education. Europe, North America, and Eastern Asia all had very high population growth and fertility in the past, but this has significantly dropped off as both regions developed. Take S. Korea or Japan - their birth rate is low enough that theyre at negative population growth. Or take the populous country of China for example. They had a sky high birth rate of around 6-6.5 back in the 1960s. Today, even after the removal of the 1 child policy several years ago, birth rates in China is at 1.7 - which is below the 2.1 to sustain a stable population and so they're also in negative population growth.
Encouraging less kids in places that can't afford them is a good thing and is effective policy to improve living standards around the world. But we now have people peddling conspiracy theories about policies that try to reduce population growth to sustainable levels. Bill Gates' organizations that subsidize contraceptives and teaching family planning & birth control in 3rd world developing countries...but this is somehow treated as an evil genocide population-extermination conspiracy to those nutcases.
Mice are hardly apex predators. There is some debate whether humans qualify as apex predators depending on different definitions, but assuming humans are apex predators, human nature will mean there will always be humans who will take advantage of or bully other humans as is their human nature. So humanity will never be short of a prey to exploit or enemies to fight.
captaincranky
Posts: 19,684 +8,825
Yeah well, there's an old teenage adage that goes something like this, "the first sign of an individual self sexually stimulating, is denying it". I have this "atypical" viewpoint", that extends itself to many, if not all types of human justifications, for their negative actions.. So, "the first sign of being an 'apex predator', is denying it"."Homo sapiens", is overall, the worst practical joke evolution has ever played on itself. It starts from the arrogance detailed in Genesis 1, and goes downhill from there..In fact, the species designation, "sapiens", is a boldface display of that narcissism.
I could sit here typing examples of human arrogance and greed all night. But all you really have to do is read a history book. Behind almost every famous name, is an apex predator. Alexander the great, Julius Caesar, Napoleon, Adolf Hitler, Josef Stalin, to name a few. You want sexual predators? Caligula, Henry the XIII, Rasputin, again, to name just a few..
Speaking of predators, did you know that the NASPCA, does not distribute any of its contributions to local chapters, and their CEO pulls down $800,000 a year?
As for "every day working stiffs", their need to hunt for dinner, has been replaced by slaughterhouses. So, "apex predator by proxy", maybe?
And remember every elephant we slaughter for its tusks, "is for a good cause", like some sh!t Chinese non-working "folk remedy". Well not all dead elephants,, the ultra rich cut off their heads and hang them on the wall in their dens.
"In conclusion". you seem to be an optimist, and I am so very obviusly a pessimist. Neither one of us is necessarily right or wrong. We just have to wait to see which faction wins out.
And BTW, there was only one factor of human behavior Sigmund Freud was wrong about.
Last edited:
captaincranky
Posts: 19,684 +8,825
I think that Tienanmen Square, and more recently Hong Kong, may have convinced the Chinese people that they don't have much of a choice, other than to put up with it.
Bluescreendeath
Posts: 397 +620
I believe the term Apex predator is usually used to refer to an entire species, not individuals within the species that prey on other members of the species. So the debate I was referring to are people debating whether humanity as a whole species is an apex predator of other life forms/other species, rather than whether there are humans who prey on other humans.
"Homo sapiens", is overall, the worst practical joke evolution has ever played on itself. It starts from the arrogance detailed in Genesis 1, and goes downhill from there..In fact, the species ouedesignation, "sapiens", is a boldface display of that narcissism.
I could sit here typing examples of human arrogance and greed. But all you really have to do is read a history book. Behind almost every famous name, is an apex predator. Alexander the great, Julius Caesar, Napoleon, Adolf Hitler, Josef Stalin, to name a few. You want sexual predators? Caligula, Henry the XIII, Rasputin, again, to name just a few..
Speaking of predators, did you know that the NASPCA, does not distribute any of its contributions to local chapters, and their CEO pulls down $800,000 a year?
As for "every day working stiffs", their need to hunt for dinner, has been replaced by slaughters. So, "apex predator by proxy", maybe?
And remember every elephant we slaughter for its tusks, "is for a good cause", like some sh!t Chinese non-working "folk remedy". Well not all dead elephants,, the ultra rich cut off their heads and hang them on the wall in their dens.
As for humans who prey on other humans or humans who take advantage of others for power, yeh, that is definitely a common and not particularly unusual thing. I don't think those people are actually called apex predator but something else.
Yes, I agree that the non-profit organization thing is often a heavily abused scam. Boy scouts, girl scouts, charities, religious organizations (especially those mega churches), etc have CEOs getting paid half a million easy. Those televangelists on TV preaching prosperity gospel and begging for donations to fund their lavish multi million dollar lifestyle while their organization is a tax exempt non-profit. It's all a racket.
I haven't heard about people saying slaughter elephants are for a good
cause? The only thing I hear about elephant slaughter (for either religious-folk medicine nonsense in the east or for boosting their ego in the west) is negative news and condemnation of it.
And I don't see how I am the optimist when I believe a utopia can never be achieved in the first place due to the flaws of human nature, while you believe the USA/humans will achieve a utopia and then collapse after achieving utopia.
Or maybe we're just optimistic/pessimistic about different things.
captaincranky
Posts: 19,684 +8,825
The only assumption I was making, is that you can still get a top notch education at Harvard. It was completely independent of the price you'd have to pay for it.
captaincranky
Posts: 19,684 +8,825
No, the term "apex predator" applies to the species which is at the "top of the food chain", in its given range or territory.. In case you haven't noticed, globally speaking, that's us..
If you want to deal in semantics, trust me, I'm here for you..
True, there are "social misfits", who work in wildlife rescue centers. But the a**hole with the gun that brought that eagle down in the first place, is certainly not a "conservationist". So, you have to ask yourself, "is killing just for the hell of it, predatory behavior"?Genesis I verse 26:
26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”
So, there you go. We're barely off page 1 of the bible, and we've declared "our godliness", and our "sovereign right", to do whatever we damned well please, with every other living thing on the planet. Some, (including myself), would consider this "predatory". Bur hell, our "superior intelligence", provides us with the means to justify and rationalize our behavior. In fact, that's exactly what makes us so damned dangerous.
People say that written language is the foundation of our success as a species, perhaps that's true in some aspects. However, before we discovered cave walls to paint on, we turned out to be omnivores. So, we're not "obligate carnivores", (Felidae), or grass munchers ( Ungulates), we can eat or "predate", on almost 100% of all living things. (some claim rattlesnake tastes like "chicken"). That's one aspect of our success as a species).
If I would have been tasked with writing Genesis, I would have worded it, "on the 6th day, God took a sh!t, he saw that it was fetid, he called it "man", and right after the 11:00 PM news, verily he went back to bed. As to whether that was Saturday or Sunday, you\ll have to ask a rabbi or a priest.
On a graph compared with me, you are an "optimist". How other humans would be ranked on the same curve, could potentially influence your overall ranking (Possibly downgrading you to the pessimist category)..
Bluescreendeath
Posts: 397 +620
Yeh, that's what I said. The examples of bad people taking advantage of others are examples of individuals within the species preying on the same members of the species. These are individuals within the species, not the species as a whole.
See above.If you want to deal in semantics, trust me, I'm here for you..
Either way, I was just saying some people debate whether humans are apex predators or not. Personally I think humans are indeed apex predators.
Hahaha. Well, mankind is supposed to be made from a lump of mud according to it anyways, so it's not that much better than a lump of doo doo. But people will elevate even doo doo to godly status if they think it was made in god's image.
Last edited:
captaincranky
Posts: 19,684 +8,825
Right. So then can we agree that man is a "delusional apex predator"?
Bluescreendeath
Posts: 397 +620
Similar threads
