Klipsch 2.1

[olefarte]

Originally posted by Godataloss If you are cosidering buying a speaker with paper coned drivers, make absolutely sure that they have quality rubber surrounds- NOT FOAM!

I really don't think desdgl has to worry about this in the speakers he is considering.

But a good point, I thought about that and forgot to mention it. Foam surrounds will rot in maybe four or five years, if not sooner, and you will have to replace or recone your speakers. I've had this happen in the past myself. Surrounds should be made of butyl rubber, which is very flexible and I guess will last forever.

By the way, this JBL system is what I plan on getting, for my home theater system.

And if you believe that, I'll make you a good price on the Golden Gate Bridge. HeHe. Look at the price, $109,100. For that price you get nine speakers, four subwoofers, and ten amps. Looks like a deal to me, in my dreams. Wonder if NewEgg carries these at a discount?

But we're getting off subject of this thread, oh well.

 

[Nic]

Those JBLs will probably burst your eardrums :=).

Quad electrostatics are a class act, except for the bass end, which is pretty poor. My friend has a pair, and he ended up adding a couple of external subwoofers to get decent bass quality.

Paper is still the best material for woofers, for many reasons. It doesn't all just come down to stiffness and low weight. There are many factors that influence sound quality, and so far, nothing can beat paper (woofers only). That's just my opinion.

For the best bass drivers money can buy, take a look over here (all paper cones) ...

Volt Loudspeakers

There drivers have been used in many highly rated speaker designs, and I currently have speakers that use four of these units. The bass *quality* is phenominal.

 

[xtrmn8r]

if i put those jbl's in my room i wouldnt be able to move!! a lot of kit there, would be nice tho

slightly more back on track, well on a different subject previously mentionned can i refer you to this thread. one of the posts lists all of the thing which have been found to wear out in loudspeaker drivers...worth a look.

ok this is the bit where i may be wrong.

desdgl answering your question on 16-bit, cd's still are only 16-bit, the same with mp3's. the only medium to use 24-bit as far as i am aware is dvd audio, or dvd movies. so in other words, you shouldnt notice the difference in quality.

i would still be tempted to buy the audigy 2, because it will be of higher quality. and in the future, you may want to buy some 5.1 or 6.1 speakers, and you will then have the capability. thats what id do anyhow, and i think i actually will!

 

[DLx/P]

"paper cones are good as long as you are using them at a low power"

That is soooo not true. I have 2 studio monitor cabinets. Each loaded with 4X12" 500 watt Pyle Drivers with 2 100 watt power amps behind them. These speakers have paper cones. And I can tell ya, the local police can confer with me. These speakers will take alot of power and not complain a bit about it either.

And I agree about what was said on the Klipsch floor speakers. Most of them I have heard sound like they should be on a stage at a rock concert than in the home theater environment.

 

[desdgl]

Now that I know about these speakers, are the Klipsch paper cone? I never payed attention to these details before but can anyone explain what THX Certified means? Also, I read about the new Klipsch ProMedia GMX A-2.1 and wanted to know if they were better than the original Klipsch ProMedia 2.1. I just don't like the way these new ones look. I like the simple look of the originals.

 

[olefarte]

Here is a link that will tell you a little about THX. The biggest thing it does is re-equalize movies for home entertainment systems. Certain frequency's are boosted for play in theater audio systems, and THX attempts to smooth them out. Again, just a personal opinion, but I don't find that THX does all that much on my system, regular Dolby Digital sounds just as good.

Companies have to pay a fee to use the THX symbol and it process's. All this add's to the cost. If you are referring to "THX Approved" speakers, I think that any quality speaker is going to play music or home theater just fine, again, just my opinion.

I've got to go now, so don't have time to look at your other questions, maybe someone else can.

 

[Godataloss]

THX is a quality specification like the USDA for meat.

The Klipsch Promedias were the first computer speakers to be certified thx.

Nic I would have to humbly disagree with your proclimation that paper is the best material for a woofer (as if I hadnt made my position clear already). These speakers are producing frequencies in the lower hertz range and the tonal quality of the materials has little or no effect on the sound of these large waves. You want a stiff, light material to aid in accuracy, efficency, dampening and durability- ie kevlar, carbon composites and the such wich are often applied to a paper substrate, but paper alone won't take the abuse- or the wide temp and humidity cycles typical in houses and especially cars where paper drivers get literally eaten by sunlight.

If you talk about mids and tweeters, then driver material greatly effects tonal quality and that could lead into an even greater discussion of silkv vs. mylar vs. titanium- ad naseum, but I dont think it would help Desdgl decide on any speakers.

 

[Nic]

You're right, paper won't last in tough environments. Something you may wish to consider is that high stiffness is not a desirable quality in driver units (despite what some manufacturers may claim). What is really required is controlled flexing. There is an optimum driver size for each frequency band, and controlled flexing in drivers results in better quality sound. Ever wondered why tweeters are small and dome shaped, yet woofers are large and cone shaped.

I have a pair of 20 year old paper coned speakers are they are still in top condition. You'll find that suspension systems (which are made from treated cloth material and are used in all types of driver units) will wear out at the same time as cones, so even kevlar coned woofers won't last forever. All paper cones are treated to resist moisture, and sunlight also affects most synthetic materials.

The quality of bass sound is perceivable, despite the low frequencies involved (there are usually harmonics present).

You are entitled to your opinion so I'm not trying to change that, though I do believe your arguments are a little misguided.

 

[Godataloss]

Nic you need to look up some terms. I think you are describing your system- acoustical suspension (ie no vent or passive radiator). In these systems the mechanical suspension of the speaker cone is said to be stiff or loose(not the material itself) in relation to the air enclosed in the speaker box. This 'stiffness' is in direct proportion to how large the enclosure is- the bigger the box, the less 'stiff' the suspension of the speaker. All this refers to is how easily the speaker moves and has nothing to do with the rigidity of the driver material itself. A speaker suspension in an acoustic suspension design has to have low 'stiffness' because the pressure level inside the cabinet is so high.

As for controlled flexing and harmonics, you are correct that a flexing cone will create harmonics- this is call HARMONIC DISTORTION- as the load on the speaker forces a divergence from the waveform it is trying to accurately produce- not a good thing.

As for the dome shape of speaker drivers in general- this is done to INCREASE rigidity- the same purpose the concentric dimples in the cone serve. Wether a driver is convex or concave is irrevelant to its performance- tweets or woofers come either way.

Hope this clears some things up for ya.

 

[Nic]

A few points (just for info, so please don't take it personal) ...

Originally posted by Godataloss
I think you are describing your system- acoustical suspension (ie no vent or passive radiator) ... All this refers to is how easily the speaker moves and has nothing to do with the rigidity of the driver material itself.

I was refering to speaker *cone* stiffness. I designed and built my own speakers 20 years ago (reflex design using auxiliary bass radiators, I don't like the sound of acoustic suspension systems).

Originally posted by Godataloss
As for controlled flexing and harmonics, you are correct that a flexing cone will create harmonics- this is call HARMONIC DISTORTION- as the load on the speaker forces a divergence from the waveform it is trying to accurately produce- not a good thing.

I wasn't refering to harmonic distortion, but the fact that all speaker units are designed to reproduce more than one frequency, and that all musical instuments produce harmonics along with the fundamental frequencies. That's what gives instruments their particular sound.

Originally posted by Godataloss
As for the dome shape of speaker drivers in general- this is done to INCREASE rigidity- the same purpose the concentric dimples in the cone serve.

Not entirely correct. There is a well known phenomena that occurs in all audio transducers (even non-audio such as radar, for that matter) that results in sound becoming more directional as the size of the transducer increases relative to the frequency reproduced.

The reason why tweeters are dome shaped is to prevent the high frequencies from 'beaming' (audio terminology), which would result in them being loudest when you are positioned directly in front of the driver. Making them rigid also enables their resonant frequency to be higher, and hopefully out of the audible range.

The concentric rings on a cone are there so that at higher frequencies, only the centre of the cone moves, but for lower frequencies, larger areas of the cone start to join in (controlled flexing, and to stiffen the cone against buckling). The purpose of this is to ensure that all frequencies produced are dispersed evenly, regardless of your seating position relative to the speakers. The area of the transducer that is reproducing the sound varies according to frequency, thus ensuring good stereo imaging. Narrow speaker cabinets tend to have better stereo imaging properties for similar reasons (less beaming, but poorer bass output - sound reflection from walls and floors can compensate).

The best speaker cones will be engineered to flex in a controlled way and have good dampening of unwanted resonance in the cone material. This is one of the characteristics of paper. Alternative speaker materials have been around for a couple of decades now, yet paper continues to be used. If paper was crap, then it would have vanished from speaker production a long time ago. Something to think about.

 

[Godataloss]

Beeming only occurs in tweeters- that is why the voice coil must be smaller than one inch in diameter. The rigidity of the diaphragm material has very little affect on resonance of the tweeter, but rather the material that the motor is mounted to induces this effect. Beeming does not occur in woofers because waves 200hz and below are larger than the typical listening room and reflect several times before they reach the listener.

The concentric rings on a cone are there so that at higher frequencies, only the centre of the cone moves, but for lower frequencies, larger areas of the cone start to join in (controlled flexing, and to stiffen the cone against buckling). The purpose of this is to ensure that all frequencies produced are dispersed evenly, regardless of your seating position relative to the speakers. The area of the transducer that is reproducing the sound varies according to frequency, thus ensuring good stereo imaging. ..

When you made your speakers 20 years ago there was a derth of quality materials and different 'theories' abounded as to why certain combinations of drivers and materials sounded certain ways. As I mentioned in my earlier post the 'technique' you describe above(certainly something that couldnt be enginerred into a paper cone) was employed in the design of the Acoustic Research AR2Ax 10' driver- good in its day but if you check
excellent source for replacements
you will see that All of these replacement speakers are poly coated or filled- further if you check
world class speakers

you will see that modern quality speakers employ even more exotic materials like kevlar.

The reason paper cones havent diasappeared is because they are cheap and no pvc-resin-handling knowledge is needed at the factories in Hati where they are produced.

 

[olefarte]

desdgl, as to your question of what are the cones of the Pro Media 2.1's made of, look at this page at Klipsch web site. It shows that the cones are made of "fiber composite". Edit; I can't get it to link directly to the page, so the link will take you to the main page. Look for products and then click on Pro Media Series and find the ones you are looking at.

I don't know if the new ones sound any better, but usually when a new model comes out, it's supposed to be better, although that's not always the case. Another thing, the new ones will no doubt be priced higher.

Bottom line, don't let all this tech talk about what the cones are made of influence you, to much. Klipsch is a reputable company, in business for a long time, and I'm sure they know how to make quality speaker cones that will hold up for a long time, and play loud, if that's what you are looking for.

 

[Nic]

Originally posted by Godataloss
Beeming only occurs in tweeters- that is why the voice coil must be smaller than one inch in diameter.

Absolutely incorrect. Beaming occurs at ALL frequencies, but it is most noticable at higher frequencies because the sound becomes more directional. If you knew anything about radar (microwave frequencies) then you'd be aware that broader antenae are used when a narrower beam is required. For bass frequencies, you need a pretty wide bass driver to notice beaming, but it does happen. There is no magical frequency when this effect suddenly appears, then disapears. It is progressive and depends on the ratio of transducer size relative to the wavelength being reproduced.

Originally posted by Godataloss
further if you check
world class speakers

you will see that modern quality speakers employ even more exotic materials like kevlar.

True, but B&W don't make the best speakers IMHO. It's a sales gimmick, and a need to *try* something different. If you look at some of their speakers (801), you'll find that they are now starting to use paper/kevlar blends. I wonder why that is?

Originally posted by Godataloss
The reason paper cones havent diasappeared is because they are cheap and no pvc-resin-handling knowledge is needed at the factories in Hati where they are produced.

Yes paper cones are relatively cheap to make, but that is not the reason why they are used.

Here is a quote, I stubbled across, taken from a respected UK Audio Magazine website www.hifichoice.co.uk (taken from a review of a pair of cheap Tannoy MX2 floorstanders) ...

Sound Quality
To be honest, the mX2's sheer unobstructiveness blew me away. Given a top quality system and stands, this speaker simply gets out of the way and lets the music flow through. Many audiophiles believe that a carefully chosen paper cone can give the best results of all the widely used diaphragm materials. The mX2's midband openness and delicacy, and its ability to deliver subtle and believable textures, would seem to reinforce that point of view.

 

[Godataloss]

As I said before, paper is fine for a substrate, but even this Tannoy you use as your examble has a ceramic coated driver.
your argument defeated by you

In fact, even Radio Shack (try to find a paper speaker cut rate american speaker supplier) doesnt carry paper cone woofers unless its for a PC's internal speaker- though I'm sure you could find an interesting classic hifi system design to employ one.

Absolutely incorrect. Beaming occurs at ALL frequencies, but it is most noticable at higher frequencies because the sound becomes more directional. If you knew anything about radar (microwave frequencies) then you'd be aware that broader antenae are used when a narrower beam is required. For bass frequencies, you need a pretty wide bass driver to notice beaming, but it does happen. There is no magical frequency when this effect suddenly appears, then disapears. It is progressive and depends on the ratio of transducer size relative to the wavelength being reproduced.

You seem well versed in radar, but a loudspeaker woofer will not beam unless there is a fundamental x-over design flaw and it is getting way more power than the tweeters- The waves are simply too big to localize- they reflect seveal times before they even reach you ears- this is why you only need one subwoofer and it can even point at the floor!

True, but B&W don't make the best speakers IMHO.

I said world-class and you are fooling yourself if you think a ~$150 Tannoy(the old Tannoy's of the '50's and '60's were world class, but again they have been bought and sold a million times) should even be mentioned in the same breath as a B&W.

You are certainly entitled to your own opinion, but I would urge anyone interested in purchasing a speaker system to take carful note of the type of drivers you see in systems of quality- no speaker is a good deal if it doesnt sound good and last a long time.:grinthumb

 

[Nic]

I think we've both made our points. Just to clarify, 'beaming' has nothing whatsoever to do with x-over design. It is a fundamental law of physics and occurs because of transmitted wavelength and transducer size. Sub-woofers aren't typically wide enough to induce noticable beaming at low frequencies, and as you said, reflections from other surfaces also help to disguise this effect. Nuff said.

And as for paper cones, you'd be hard pushed to find one that wasn't treated in some way. No one uses pure 100% unadulterated paper for loudspeaker cones, they are all treated in some way or another. No material is perfect, but paper of one type or another comes closest.

 

[Godataloss]

I said- You seem well versed in radar, but a loudspeaker woofer will not beam unless there is a fundamental x-over design flaw and it is getting way more power than the tweeters- The waves are simply too big to localize- they reflect seveal times before they even reach you ears- this is why you only need one subwoofer and it can even point at the floor!

This means that the only way a woofer will "beam" is if it is receiving a much higher input than the other drivers. This wont be true beaming as I think I've established that that's impossible with a woofer's low frequency, but beaming in this sense would simply mean that it was playing noticeabley louder than the other speakers.

Nic said- For bass frequencies, you need a pretty wide bass driver to notice beaming, but it does happen.

then he said

Nic said- It is a fundamental law of physics and occurs because of wavelength and size. Sub-woofers aren't typically wide enough to induce noticable beaming at low frequencies,

Glad you finally agree with me, but-this begs the question-if a sub aint wide enough to do it what is?

Nic said- And as for paper cones, you'd be hard pushed to find one that wasn't treated in some way. No one uses pure 100% unadulterated paper for loudspeaker cones, they are all treated in some way or another

Which was my point several posts ago. Glad we finally agree.

*puts whip and dead horse away*

 

[Nic]

I think you are a little confused with the term 'beaming' (sound being louder directly in front of the transducer, than at the sides). If you want to induce noticable 'beaming' from a sub, then mount it flush with your wall and stand well to one side. The wall will act as a sound radiator throwing all the sound forward. Anyways, we've probably whipped this one to death now :=).

 

[poertner_1274]

Ok this is getting way beyond the question of desdgl. Consider the topic closed.