Massachusetts aims to ban the sale of new gas-powered vehicles by 2035

Puiu

Posts: 5,052   +3,914
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Cool. I can't think of anything that could usher in the EVs faster.
I know one thing: finishing the damn new solid state battery tech (or something similar) and making them ready for mass production.

Toyota should have it's first gen ready in 2021 and Tesla is working on another type of battery that has 400 Wh/kg. Being able to charge it to 100% in 10-15 minutes will be a game changer.
 

scavengerspc

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Tesla is working on another type of battery that has 400 Wh/kg. Being able to charge it to 100% in 10-15 minutes will be a game changer.
Oh yeah, the iron phosphate battery or something like that. The "million-mile battery". It will eliminate cobalt and be much cheaper.

EDIT:
Here it is. Its lithium-iron-phosphate. No cobalt, way cheaper, lasts 9-10 times longer and it will be out this year.

 
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Robertrogue

Posts: 109   +71
Let's see, Cuba had its import strangled for 50 years and no new tech entered the area and money was scarce for the normal Joe. So the inventive went to work and kept 50 year old vehicles running and are still running, they can stop the production, but you cannot force someone to purchase what they can't afford and you cannot force someone to purchase something they do not want, well unless your Russia or China, then maybe. Americans are stubborn and resilient at the same time. Good luck with this Mass, besides, the strip mining and hydrochloric acid fumes from the production of batteries is much more harmful than CO2. This is like adding Kudzu to America to control erosion, now we have a invasive plant we cant get rid of because they "thought" it would be "beneficial".
 

Puiu

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Let's see, Cuba had its import strangled for 50 years and no new tech entered the area and money was scarce for the normal Joe. So the inventive went to work and kept 50 year old vehicles running and are still running, they can stop the production, but you cannot force someone to purchase what they can't afford and you cannot force someone to purchase something they do not want, well unless your Russia or China, then maybe. Americans are stubborn and resilient at the same time. Good luck with this Mass, besides, the strip mining and hydrochloric acid fumes from the production of batteries is much more harmful than CO2. This is like adding Kudzu to America to control erosion, now we have a invasive plant we cant get rid of because they "thought" it would be "beneficial".
Eventually you will be forced to retire such old vehicles. The first ones to go will the diesel cars.

As for lifetime benefits from going all electric, all studies show that when you take into account everything: car production, battery production, fuel, recyclability, etc - electric cars are much much more efficient than conventional cars (even when compared to the most efficient cars).

As battery technology evolves, less fossil fuels are used in electricity production and recycling becomes much more feasible (because of mass production and reduced operation costs) the difference between conventional cars and EVs will grow even further.

People also seem to ignore the fact that the transition will last a few decades, it won't happen in the next few years. You should expect conventional cars to still be the majority sold in the the next 10 years.
 

Avro Arrow

Posts: 1,855   +2,208
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It certainly will be part of the transition toward non-fosil burning vehicles but the states must find a way to force the electric auto makers to produce affordable vehicles. The majority of drivers simply cannot afford these 60K plus price tags and frankly, with the production costs lower, fewer moving parts and a few other factors, there is no reason for such high prices other than simple greed.
I think that the biggest contributor to their current high cost is their limited levels of production. If they were mass-produced to the same degree as gasoline-powered vehicles, I think that the cost would be similar. It won't be less like it should be, because capitalist greed, but they would become affordable. There's little point in making a product that people cannot afford to buy.
I'm all for electric vehicles and I say that as a car guy. I love tesla's as much as I love a big screaming V8, V10 or V12. That said, I'm not certain the world can produce enough batteries for an all-electric economy. Perhaps once electric cars start being taken off the road and batteries start being recycled things could be different. At the same time, 15 years is so far away that it seems like something politicians are saying just to make them look good. 2035 could roll around and they could "extend" that limitation for X reason for Y years.

It's a good goal to have less gas cars on the road and electric cars can be an absolute blast to drive, but I don't think "NO GAS CARS" is even a good goal.

The other side to this is that if we can produce enough energy we can make gasoline and diesel from things we pull out of the atmosphere effectively making cars and trucks carbon neutral
What has to be done is to look at Europe (which North America doesn't do nearly often enough). A huge amount of inter-city and inter-regional travel is done by electric rail. It's fast, inexpensive and electric. The real question is "Will the USA (and Canada for that matter) finally get off of our butts and build a proper high-speed electric rail system?" because that would have the biggest immediate positive impact. Existing rail lines could be used and all that would be needed to set it up would be overhanging wire supports like this one alongside the track to supply electricity to the train as it moves:
5ceec559f3e7a91de1ae98ee_great-western-hitachi-801jpg-p-777.jpg

This is actually the norm in Europe and has been for years. Of all places, TEXAS has an electric rail system called "Texas Central":
shinkansen_field-755x402.jpg

While these trains look rather futuristic, new rolling stock wouldn't actually be needed. I was talking to my father about this awhile ago because his career has made him a real expert on trains. He was a senior purchasing agent for CP Rail (Canadian Pacific Railway) for most of his life when their head office was in Montreal and has worked for both Alstom and Bombardier Transportation. He said that trains only use their diesel engines as generators for the motors that actually turn the wheels (ships use the same setup for their props) because the torque that these electric motors have is just astonishing and is what these heavy trains need to get moving and accelerate quickly.

To convert them to electric-only, all that would have to be done is for the electrical power source connectors to be moved to the top of the train instead of to the massive alternators that are spun by the diesel engines. It would be quick, cheap and easy to make the conversion because it would only really involve the removal of the diesel engines and their alternators.

The only reason it hasn't been done already is that the cost of the electrical infrastructure would be considerable and since everything in the USA is privatised (after all, to them, anything run by the government is communism), these corporations generally aren't willing to incur the cost. Texas Central is the exception that proves the rule but also proves that such things are possible in one of the most politically-backward states in the USA.

I'm personally embarrassed that Canada has no inter-provincial electric rail. We're so far-flung that it would only make sense to have an uber-fast electric rail system from Newfoundland to BC. Hell, we have around 2,000,000 lakes and over 8,000 rivers. That's more than enough hydropower to make electric trains in Canada that travel at:
4smkbu.jpg
 
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This is easier said than done. Rust in the north east from salt is a major problem. The other problem is that modern vehicles are having problems with what is called "gasoline blowby" which causes oil dilution. Blowby in the engine is from the higher pressures in engines from increased compression ratios. In a cold motor the tolerances inside the engine aren't tight enough for the piston rings to properly do their job, sealing the piston head against the cylinder wall. The dilution of oil causes accelerated wear on the cylinder walls and bearings inside an engine. This problem can be mitigated by more frequently oil changes but never really goes away. In the era of 7500-10,000 mile oil changes I still do mine every 5000 miles and I highly recommend everyone else to do the same. Also, use a cheap oil-based undercoat before every winter to avoid rust from salt. You can do it for $50 yourself and takes about an hour. If you have an SUV you don't even need to lift your vehicle to do it. After I spray mine on I like to take a large paint brush and smear it around, it stays "wet" for around 3 days
Good explanation, but the problem is really with GDI (gas direct engines) not the older designs.
 

trents

Posts: 24   +14
Some of you may remember the long gas stations lines during the fuel shortage crisis of the 1970s when only a few stations in any city had gas to pump. I'm thinking about this move toward all electric cars and that's what I envision happening at the charging stations. Not because of a shortage of electrical power but because of the time it takes to charge a vehicle which, I think even for fast charging is about 30 minutes. So you'd better take a lunch with you. And you'd better add a lot of time to your travel time estimate for long trips unless the range between charges can be drastically improved from the current max of about 300 miles.
 

scavengerspc

Posts: 1,732   +1,787
TechSpot Elite
Some of you may remember the long gas stations lines during the fuel shortage crisis of the 1970s when only a few stations in any city had gas to pump. I'm thinking about this move toward all electric cars and that's what I envision happening at the charging stations. Not because of a shortage of electrical power but because of the time it takes to charge a vehicle which, I think even for fast charging is about 30 minutes. So you'd better take a lunch with you. And you'd better add a lot of time to your travel time estimate for long trips unless the range between charges can be drastically improved from the current max of about 300 miles.
Ok man. You do know they can be recharged at home don't you?
And we are already seeing everyday restaurants, shopping centers\malls and even grocery stores offering charge points. Dedicated charge stations will not be anywhere near as necessary as gas stations are.

In fact, while there are just under 170,000 fuel stations in the US there are already almost 30,000 charge locations. Anyone can open their own charging station because we all have electricity. And no permit or paperwork required (besides passing local inspection as all electricity work does). Even in the case of a power outage there is a Dollar General 3 miles from my house that has a few ports and 11 miles away there is a Food Giant with 4 ports.

Long lines will always be a non-issue.
 
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nismo91

Posts: 1,163   +205
This is easier said than done. Rust in the north east from salt is a major problem. The other problem is that modern vehicles are having problems with what is called "gasoline blowby" which causes oil dilution. Blowby in the engine is from the higher pressures in engines from increased compression ratios. In a cold motor the tolerances inside the engine aren't tight enough for the piston rings to properly do their job, sealing the piston head against the cylinder wall. The dilution of oil causes accelerated wear on the cylinder walls and bearings inside an engine. This problem can be mitigated by more frequently oil changes but never really goes away. In the era of 7500-10,000 mile oil changes I still do mine every 5000 miles and I highly recommend everyone else to do the same. Also, use a cheap oil-based undercoat before every winter to avoid rust from salt. You can do it for $50 yourself and takes about an hour. If you have an SUV you don't even need to lift your vehicle to do it. After I spray mine on I like to take a large paint brush and smear it around, it stays "wet" for around 3 days

I think I know exactly which car you're referring for notorious oil dilution: it has turbocharged 4 cylinder, direct injection (gdi) and cvt -- from a company with enormous experience and knowledge of building many efficient gasoline engines. not exactly a fantastic combination, but I'm afraid every major automaker will soon switch all their products to this very combination.

honestly I don't think older non-turbocharged engine with port injection suffers from oil dilution issues. in fact I'm sure with regular oil change the traditional engine itself is likely to outlast the automatic transmission.

rust on the other hand... is truly a disaster. even for us living without winter in tropics you'll find relatively new cars with rust easily on seaside or reclaimed areas. considering where massachusetts is, I do get your concern.
 

trents

Posts: 24   +14
Please read the rest of my post brother.
Did you read all of mine? What about the time it takes to charge the battery, even on a fast charge? Personally, I don't want to be standing around for that long waiting for the charge to finish.
 

scavengerspc

Posts: 1,732   +1,787
TechSpot Elite
Did you read all of mine? What about the time it takes to charge the battery, even on a fast charge? Personally, I don't want to be standing around for that long waiting for the charge to finish.
Ok I get it. You just chose to ignore the rest of my post.

Anyway those days are rapidly coming to an end. In the meantime, long-distance driving can still be done in our smoke pumps.
 

trents

Posts: 24   +14
Ok I get it. You just chose to ignore the rest of my post.

Anyway those days are rapidly coming to an end. In the meantime, long-distance driving can still be done in our smoke pumps.
No, I didn't ignore the rest of your post. It just failed to address the range of issues I was raising.

There has not been much improvement in the range of AEV in some years. Just incremental. There needs to be a technological breakthrough for them to be a serious contender to gasoline powered vehicles for longer trips or, alternatively, some kind of technological breakthrough in the charging process. Alternatives to charging stations might be electrolyte filling stations. I read where researchers are working on that option. Or, plug and play batteries where you stop at a station and pop out the old battery and pop in a new, already charged one, like you would on a cordless power tool. Of course, in the latter scenario, batterie configurations would have to be standardized.
 

Puiu

Posts: 5,052   +3,914
TechSpot Elite
Some of you may remember the long gas stations lines during the fuel shortage crisis of the 1970s when only a few stations in any city had gas to pump. I'm thinking about this move toward all electric cars and that's what I envision happening at the charging stations. Not because of a shortage of electrical power but because of the time it takes to charge a vehicle which, I think even for fast charging is about 30 minutes. So you'd better take a lunch with you. And you'd better add a lot of time to your travel time estimate for long trips unless the range between charges can be drastically improved from the current max of about 300 miles.
Next year you'll see new batteries that charge in 10 minutes for 500km range (300miles). Home charging will also become a thing. I've also seen charging stations in parking lots of stores.

People seem to forget that you put such charging stations almost anywhere. You can't do the same with gas.
 

scavengerspc

Posts: 1,732   +1,787
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There has not been much improvement in the range of AEV in some years. Just incremental.
That is true, but the average EV has shown far more range improvement than gas engines in the last 10 years. Of course, it is always easier to improve new tech than existing but with new battery tech that was mentioned earlier that will be going way up soon.
electrolyte filling stations
I thought that was put aside a few years ago but it good to hear they will be on it again. Ev owners are already getting used to just "filling up" at home so I wonder how eager they will be with something like that.

As always, time will tell.
 
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toooooot

Posts: 1,477   +738
Caring about earth, I get it. Decreasing pollution is good too.
Who will care for people who lose well paying jobs in oil industry?
I have serious doubts. I have serious doubts they will be able to find new good jobs.
And all our leaders will be able to come up to save them will most likely be a guaranteed minimum
income. Oh, don't they like to show care and love by giving a minimum charity check to as many people as possible to control them as much as possible.
That is it, I want all the people who will definitely lose tenth of thousands jobs to be able to find another.
I wish that the jobs aren't shipped oversees but adjusted to be available here.
I wish that instead of a shitty low unemployment check, someone cares to create more places for people to work.
Why do people not talk about millions of people who have will have zero chances to make a fair living who will go crazy having all the time on their hands, and a very lean budget to entertain themselves?
Let people work. If there is no place to work, make it.
And stop talking about guaranteed income. It is not a solution, it is a small patch on a rotting wound that can not fix itself.
 

John Galt

Posts: 22   +4
This is a case of politicians acting like roosters - "Look, I will make the sun rise by crowing!"

It is as utterly stupid as stupid comes. Batteries have been dropping in price exponentially for 70 years, and show no sign of slowing. Within 5 years they will be cheaper than gas cars in almost every case. 6 years later, the battery part will be half that price (or twice the capacity for the same price).

Unless space aliens invade or the Earth is destroyed by a meteor, by 2035 nobody in their right mind will WANT a new gas car.
 

John Galt

Posts: 22   +4
It certainly will be part of the transition toward non-fosil burning vehicles but the states must find a way to force the electric auto makers to produce affordable vehicles. The majority of drivers simply cannot afford these 60K plus price tags and frankly, with the production costs lower, fewer moving parts and a few other factors, there is no reason for such high prices other than simple greed.

Ah, yes, a Democrat's answer to everything is always to demand the force of government to try to bend reality to their will. It never works, but they never adapt their arguments either.

All quite pointless, you cannot legislate innovation no matter how big a hammer you use. Fortunately, it is in no way necessary. Within 5 years battery cars will be cheaper than ICE alternatives. 6 years later the battery cost will drop by half. By 2035 nobody in their right mind would WANT an ICE car, certainly not a new one. They will be too expensive as will be the fuel.
 

John Galt

Posts: 22   +4
Ok man. You do know they can be recharged at home don't you?
And we are already seeing everyday restaurants, shopping centers\malls and even grocery stores offering charge points. Dedicated charge stations will not be anywhere near as necessary as gas stations are.

In fact, while there are just under 170,000 fuel stations in the US there are already almost 30,000 charge locations. Anyone can open their own charging station because we all have electricity. And no permit or paperwork required (besides passing local inspection as all electricity work does). Even in the case of a power outage there is a Dollar General 3 miles from my house that has a few ports and 11 miles away there is a Food Giant with 4 ports.

Long lines will always be a non-issue.

A bit of an apples-to-oranges comparison. The average gas station has about 6 pumps, the average recharging station is solo, so that's more like a 30:1 ratio. Too, most of those charging points are in private locations like company parking lots.

But, it will get there. It won't even require government get involved, any more than the creation of those gas stations required government intervention when people started ditching horses for cars.
 

scavengerspc

Posts: 1,732   +1,787
TechSpot Elite
The average gas station has about 6 pumps
Probably true but as there are more and more EVs multi-port charging stations will come along. Truthfully I don't know of any that doesn't have at least 2 and there are many more in cities.
most of those charging points are in private locations like company parking lots.
But if they aren't for the general public they aren't counted in charge point searches. There are a little under 30,000 public charging stations.
But, it will get there. It won't even require government get involved, any more than the creation of those gas stations required government intervention when people started ditching horses for cars.
Oh damn man this made me wonder just how the Government will go after a cut of every EV recharge. They already have taxes on all electricity use but a tax on a tax has never been something they shied away from in the past.
 

yRaz

Posts: 3,895   +4,138
Good explanation, but the problem is really with GDI (gas direct engines) not the older designs.
The problem with GDI is the carbon build up on valves overtime leading to a loss of power. The problem with "older designs" is depreciation and people aren't going to keep their $1000 Honda civic running for 15 years.

I think I know exactly which car you're referring for notorious oil dilution: it has turbocharged 4 cylinder, direct injection (gdi) and cvt -- from a company with enormous experience and knowledge of building many efficient gasoline engines. not exactly a fantastic combination, but I'm afraid every major automaker will soon switch all their products to this very combination.

honestly I don't think older non-turbocharged engine with port injection suffers from oil dilution issues. in fact I'm sure with regular oil change the traditional engine itself is likely to outlast the automatic transmission.

rust on the other hand... is truly a disaster. even for us living without winter in tropics you'll find relatively new cars with rust easily on seaside or reclaimed areas. considering where massachusetts is, I do get your concern.
Honda's 1.5L turbo is the main engine I was thinking of but blow by can be an issue on any turbocharged engine. The problem is even bigger if you only make short trips and the engine never gets a chance to heat up.

There is a "bandaid" fix that really annoys me that manufactures can use to make automatic transmissions last longer and it's really cheap. Just make the clutchplates a little thicker. I'm always surprised when I hold a clutch plate at how little clutch material is on there.
 
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Avro Arrow

Posts: 1,855   +2,208
TechSpot Elite
Caring about earth, I get it. Decreasing pollution is good too.
Who will care for people who lose well paying jobs in oil industry?
I have serious doubts. I have serious doubts they will be able to find new good jobs.
Of course they're going to be taken care of! Did you think that the plan was to let them starve? Only in the USA would people even consider letting that happen so if you're from there, I can kind of understand your concern but it has literally zero bearing on whether or not this gets done. This gets done or tens to hundreds of millions will DIE so a few thousand unemployed oil workers is not something that's even going to slow it down. It's just something that will have to be anticipated and counteracted. It can be done quite easily but the American oligarchs would say otherwise.

Never forget that the Earth can exist without the economy but not the other way around because we can live on Earth without money but we cannot live on money without the Earth.
 
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Robertrogue

Posts: 109   +71
Next year you'll see new batteries that charge in 10 minutes for 500km range (300miles). Home charging will also become a thing. I've also seen charging stations in parking lots of stores.

People seem to forget that you put such charging stations almost anywhere. You can't do the same with gas.
Yep you are correct, there will be "fast charging batteries" soon. The biggest issue that everyone is overlooking is the monumental environmental impact of mining the materials for such batteries. Not to mention the impact of billions of kilowatts needed to charge millions of EV's across a region at any given time, look at the days during the year when some areas have such a load on the system that they have to use "brown outs" to free up energy to keep some of the system running properly. Also, there is the issue of the massive amounts of heat generated by batteries charging. We already have issues with lithium batteries overheating and causing fires. One day this will possibly be a normal part of life, but as one other post says, "until there is a substantial scientific breakthrough" there is no way this is the norm.