Microsoft blames OEMs for slow Windows 8 sales, plans February "relaunch"

[Vrmithrax]

Microsoft still hasn't gotten a clue about how absolutely ridiculous it is to waste money on touch devices for regular desktop computing (particularly corporate scenarios)

Wrong again. It is not ridiculous, nor a waste of money. Being able to use a tablet as a PC is actually a great method of computing and the Surface Pro will bring the best of both worlds. Being able to do things that would require two separate devices all in one device is great and it's a shame that you're too blinded to realize that..

In case you were wondering, I actually really like the Surface products. And Windows 8 on a Surface product will be a superior experience. But, you seem to have missed what I actually said in your hurry to come to the defense of Win8... I was talking about touch being a waste on DESKTOPS. Not tablets, laptops, or any form factor that the Surface fits into. These are 2 separate issues. If you have ever worked in an office, spent long hours on a CAD system, or generally used a PC in a standard "work" environment, you would understand what I meant. Having a touchscreen on most workers' (and home users') monitors would be a massive waste of hardware. The ergonomics alone of constantly reaching up to touch your monitor make it unrealistic. Unless you decided to completely redesign every workstation desk in the world, a touch-centric desktop scenario would be highly detrimental to productivity. Not to mention those of us with massive screens for our CAD systems at work - haven't priced out dual 27" touch-enabled monitors, but I can guarantee you that my accounting department would laugh me out of the building if I requisitioned those for my use, just because some software company decided that "touch is the future" and that I need them... Starting to see my point?

Touch is great, and has its place. Its place is in mobile and personal spaces, not in a desktop or work environment. Period.

 

[captaincranky]

In case you were wondering, I actually really like the Surface products. And Windows 8 on a Surface product will be a superior experience. But, you seem to have missed what I actually said in your hurry to come to the defense of Win8... I was talking about touch being a waste on DESKTOPS. Not tablets, laptops, or any form factor that the Surface fits into. These are 2 separate issues. If you have ever worked in an office, spent long hours on a CAD system, or generally used a PC in a standard "work" environment, you would understand what I meant. Having a touchscreen on most workers' (and home users') monitors would be a massive waste of hardware. The ergonomics alone of constantly reaching up to touch your monitor make it unrealistic. Unless you decided to completely redesign every workstation desk in the world, a touch-centric desktop scenario would be highly detrimental to productivity. Not to mention those of us with massive screens for our CAD systems at work - haven't priced out dual 27" touch-enabled monitors, but I can guarantee you that my accounting department would laugh me out of the building if I requisitioned those for my use, just because some software company decided that "touch is the future" and that I need them... Starting to see my point?

Touch is great, and has its place. Its place is in mobile and personal spaces, not in a desktop or work environment. Period.

Yeah, well you're just plain old, flat out, irrevoceably wrong....!

(I didn't see dtourond online, so I posted what I though he'd want to say)....

I love the "server did not respond in time" error this software puts up. It practically invites you to double post....

 

[cliffordcooley]

Touch is great, and has its place. Its place is in mobile and personal spaces, not in a desktop or work environment. Period.

I believe touch does have a place in the work place, but not with current hardware available within the workplace. Once adequate hardware finds its way into the work place, that will be when a touch oriented OS becomes accepted by all. Until then we as consumers need a choice, and that choice was not made user friendly with Windows 8.

The reason I said available in the work place, is because the work place is usually the last to adapt with new tech. Windows 8 is ahead of its time, and came out before consumers were ready for such a transition. Windows 8 is a test project to see what will be allowed in future OS designs. Microsoft wanted to push a touch oriented OS on the public to get a better understanding of where their next OS needs to be.

I'm not gonna lie, I despise Windows 8 but that doesn't mean I'm gonna sit here and call it a failure. Touch orientated devices are the way of the future and Microsoft had to start somewhere.

 

[captaincranky]

Bah, you're both wrong...... "Windows 8 is Grrrrrr-ate"! Tony the Tiger told me so.....

 

[cliffordcooley]

I love the "server did not respond in time" error this software puts up. It practically invites you to double post....

Tell me about it!!!

There has been at least three instances I can remember, where I had to work at not double posting. When it takes a long time for commenting to compete posting, I usually copy the contents of my post and then refresh the page. After which I usually find my comment had been successfully posted, but just in case it was also stored in clipboard.

 

[TheBigFatClown]

cliffordcooley says
"I believe touch does have a place in the work place."

What clifford meant to say was that in spite of the well thought out and articulated explanation put fourth by Vrmithrax of 'why' touch has no place on the desktop that cliffy is gonna believe that we as humans are, in reality, gluttons for punishment and regardless of the limitations of the human body that touch will, in fact, somebody thrive in an office environment and no one can convince him otherwise.

Please don't let Vrmithrax squash your dreams of a touch-centric work-force cliffy. He's just trying to hold back progress. I myself, can't wait for the day, we are all using our thoughts by way of electrodes hooked up to our brain to communicate with computers. Don't stop believing cliffy. If you really believe it in your heart, then it does become true.

 

[cliffordcooley]

cliffy

First off thats not my name/moniker and I consider it an insult when presented in that fashion. If you want to shorten my name clif will suffice.

Insults are not allowed on Techspot, remember that when you address me again.

Secondly, I didn't say they would be a complete replacement to everything we have. I do however believe in a balanced environment, where touch could be used.

 

[killeriii]

First off thats not my name/moniker and I consider it an insult when presented in that fashion. If you want to shorten my name clif will suffice.

Insults are not allowed on Techspot, remember that when you address me again.

Secondly, I didn't say they would be a complete replacement to everything we have. I do however believe in a balanced environment, where touch could be used.

lol, cliffy...
sry, I find it amusing. (no insult intended)
I do use touch devices in my workplace, but they are handheld and tablet devices. They are used for product tracking and such. Makes the job much easier than using paper and pen.
However, I don't see that touchscreens would ever be productive in a desktop environment (ie.office).
I think the balance lies in using touch tablets/handhelds in conjunction with (non-touch) desktops.
The only way I could see touchscreens working well as part of a desktop is by maybe replacing (or adding to) the keyboard/mouse at your fingertips with a visual surface like device, as well as having a non-touch monitor in front of you.

 

[SNGX1275]

The whole crappiness of the Metro interface on non touch screens could be resolved (or a lot of the crappiness) by making a click and drag of the mouse work like a finger on the touch screen. I am astonished that Microsoft did not implement this by the final release.

 

[captaincranky]

The whole crappiness of the Metro interface on non touch screens could be resolved (or a lot of the crappiness) by making a click and drag of the mouse work like a finger on the touch screen. I am astonished that Microsoft did not implement this by the final release.

How would that be very much different from the way Windows always worked? Or for that matter the Apple OS?

I'm sorry, I just am unable to process why drag and drop, and double-click to open, would really benefit from further "simpleton-ification". Really, aren't those things easy enough........., for 5 years olds?

I suppose very soon, speech recognition software will improve to the point where a secretary won't have to bother learning to type. In the old days, when men were men, and silk stockings had seams in the back, only the ugly secretaries had to learn to type anyway, the hotties could get by "using other means"..... << If you know what I means.

 

[SNGX1275]

How would that be very much different from the way Windows always worked? Or for that matter the Apple OS?

I'm sorry, I just am unable to process why drag and drop, and double-click to open, would really benefit from further "simpleton-ification". Really, aren't those things easy enough........., for 5 years olds?

I'm not sure if I'm simply not understanding your first part, or whether you just haven't used 8 and experienced trying to navigate in Metro. The Metro interface itself, if it goes beyond 1 page can be finger swiped on a tablet, exactly like navigating on smartphones and Android/iOS tablets. However, on the desktop/laptop without a touch screen, to get to the 2nd 'page' of the Metro interface (or further screens in something like the Weather app) the only ways to do that are to bring your mouse cursor to the bottom of the screen where then a scroll bar appears and you drag the scroll bar, or you scroll your mouse wheel down to move the screen to the left.

So what I'm bitching about is why didn't Microsoft let a left click and hold act like pressing your finger on a touch screen, so that click and dragging on the screen moves the screen like it does on tablets and smartphones.

As to your second comment, I think I agree. It appears that Microsoft and Apple want to converge the desktop OS with the mobile OS, and aside from bitching on forums or not purchasing the operating systems I don't think there is much we can do about it.

 

[Chazz]

Well, if you're one to quote random online people then sure....go right ahead.

If you believe in the, "six degrees of separation" theory, I can quote whoever I want and still wind up telling the truth...

Well that can be true and yes my piece of info is anecdotal. But I do think it's better than most of the gibberish I'm reading in this topic(though I admit the replies are starting to get entertaining.). I think most of these opinions are uninformed.

 

[captaincranky]

I'm not sure if I'm simply not understanding your first part, or whether you just haven't used 8 and experienced trying to navigate in Metro.

I haven't. I've avoided it to the same degree I would a syphilitic leper.

So what I'm bitching about is why didn't Microsoft let a left click and hold act like pressing your finger on a touch screen, so that click and dragging on the screen moves the screen like it does on tablets and smartphones.

Be patient grasshopper, it will be that way in Windows 9. Deep down inside, you know that "Windows 8ista" was just a ploy for some interim operating capital, don't you?

BTW, would you be willing to settle for bouncing to cursor off the center of a tab on the page edge for scroll"

As to your second comment, I think I agree. It appears that Microsoft and Apple want to converge the desktop OS with the mobile OS, and aside from bitching on forums or not purchasing the operating systems I don't think there is much we can do about it.

Actually, that seems to have worked, at least somewhat, judging by the topic of this thread......

 

[captaincranky]

I think most of these opinions are uninformed.

Well Chazz, that's why we call them "opinions", because you don't need to be informed to have one....

That's why I change mine from time to time. First, I'm liable to be correct at least 50% of the time. And second, it helps other people to overcome their inhibitions by getting angry, giving a contrasting opinion, and telling me that I don't know what I'm talking about.

 

[Chazz]

Well Chazz, that's why we call them "opinions", because you don't need to be informed to have one....

That's why I change mine from time to time. First, I'm liable to be correct at least 50% of the time. And second, it helps other people to overcome their inhibitions by getting angry, giving a contrasting opinion, and telling me that I don't know what I'm talking about.

Ya, that would be perfectly fine. Except when you form a opinion based on other peoples opinions. Then I find it not to be that persons opinion. I'm not gonna say "The Odyssey is a great book", having not read it(or atleast partially) just because a lot of writers and book enthusiast love it. It's easy for someone to spout complete BS and then hide behind the word opinion.

I'm totally OK with someone forming an opinion based on their limited information and revising it as they learn more. No one knows everything and it'd be foolish to not want to talk to anyone that doesn't know 100% about what they're talking about. That's the difference between people spouting regurgitated trends and having a meaningful conversation about a topic.

 

[captaincranky]

Then I find it not to be that persons opinion. I'm not gonna say "The Odyssey is a great book", having not read it(or atleast partially) just because a lot of writers and book enthusiast love it.

I refuse to own a smart phone. I don't want one, I don't need one, and I can't afford one. But I've seen how the interface works, and I don't need that either. I don't want to go to my desktop, and have the same user experience that I would at a Redbox. So IMHO, plus my casual experience with other touch enabled devices, Windows 8 does suck.

I've said this before, have M$ call me, when the get voice recognition, and voice printing enabled in their OS. That way, I walk over to my computer say "good morning", it knows me, and we chat over morning coffee. In the meantime, a mouse and keyboard are dandy.

For a keyboard on a desktop, touch would be the stupidest thing imaginable. Because, then you'd need the monitor laying flat in front of you, and the keyboard would eat up a big chunk on the screen.

In the meantime, how would a monitor laying flat on a desktop mesh with today's principles of "ergonomics"?

You don''t walk down the street staring at your feet, and I expect not to have to use my computer in that manner either.

 

[TheBigFatClown]

Then I find it not to be that persons opinion. I'm not gonna say "The Odyssey is a great book", having not read it(or atleast partially) just because a lot of writers and book enthusiast love it.

I refuse to own a smart phone. I don't want one, I don't need one, and I can't afford one. But I've seen how the interface works, and I don't need that either. I don't want to go to my desktop, and have the same user experience that I would at a Redbox. So IMHO, plus my casual experience with other touch enabled devices, Windows 8 does suck.

I've said this before, have M$ call me, when the get voice recognition, and voice printing enabled in their OS. That way, I walk over to my computer say "good morning", it knows me, and we chat over morning coffee. In the meantime, a mouse and keyboard are dandy.

For a keyboard on a desktop, touch would be the stupidest thing imaginable. Because, then you'd need the monitor laying flat in front of you, and the keyboard would eat up a big chunk on the screen.

In the meantime, how would a monitor laying flat on a desktop mesh with today's principles of "ergonomics"?

You don''t walk down the street staring at your feet, and I expect not to have to use my computer in that manner either.

Very well said. I think most fanboys of the gay 'Window 8' operating system are teenage girls addicted to facebook and nerds who love new. Of course, If I were a 16-year old female facebook addict I would probably have a tablet where I could use it everywhere. At home, at school, at friends houses. Does a 16-year old female facebok addict "really" want to be tied down to a desktop computer? The 'nerds who can't resist new' haven't really stopped to ask themselves what's so great about touch on a desktop. They haven't really stopped to ask themselves how does it make their overall user-interface with the operating system better or worse. Sure there are under the hood improvements which make Windows 8 more appealing but the pathetic tablet interface kills all those desires in me to upgrade.

I honestly can't believe what I am seeing but I believe that traditional desktop user outrage is having an impact on the sales of Windows 8. Windows 8 is a POS. It deserves to fail.

Word to Microsoft: "What we have here is a failure to communicate!"

Rage on my Windows 7 patriots. The tide is slowly turning!!!

 

[Wagan8r]

I'm glad that there are so many people here who have used Windows 8 on a daily basis so as to be well informed authorities on the matter! I've never seen so many experts!

hyperbole aside, Windows 8 includes more features that I find beneficial than the oft-bemoaned negatives. But then, maybe that's just me being an objective evaluator of pros and cons.

 

[SammyJames]

Right. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with how many of us are using Windows 7 and have absolutlely zero problems with it. Or how many of us still use XP (and also, according to what I've read) have absolutely zero problems with IT. Nope. Of course -- it's the OEM's fault. Dell, HP, and Lenovo just aren't pushing Windows 8 hard enough (despite that every single new machine that has appeared in the last two months has Windows 8 on it).

Whatever.

 

[Vrmithrax]

I've said this before, have M$ call me, when the get voice recognition, and voice printing enabled in their OS. That way, I walk over to my computer say "good morning", it knows me, and we chat over morning coffee. In the meantime, a mouse and keyboard are dandy.

For a keyboard on a desktop, touch would be the stupidest thing imaginable. Because, then you'd need the monitor laying flat in front of you, and the keyboard would eat up a big chunk on the screen.

In the meantime, how would a monitor laying flat on a desktop mesh with today's principles of "ergonomics"?

You don''t walk down the street staring at your feet, and I expect not to have to use my computer in that manner either.

Oh Captain my Captain...

That walking analogy is a perfect example of my comments about a touch-centric interface being less than ergonomic or productive in a typical desktop PC usage situation. It's just common sense in most cases, not anyone trying to "hold back progress" as someone stated earlier. Glad at least you can see the pitfalls, Capt... I don't feel so alone! Heh

 

[Vrmithrax]

I believe touch does have a place in the work place, but not with current hardware available within the workplace. Once adequate hardware finds its way into the work place, that will be when a touch oriented OS becomes accepted by all. Until then we as consumers need a choice, and that choice was not made user friendly with Windows 8.

The reason I said available in the work place, is because the work place is usually the last to adapt with new tech. Windows 8 is ahead of its time, and came out before consumers were ready for such a transition. Windows 8 is a test project to see what will be allowed in future OS designs. Microsoft wanted to push a touch oriented OS on the public to get a better understanding of where their next OS needs to be.

I'm not gonna lie, I despise Windows 8 but that doesn't mean I'm gonna sit here and call it a failure. Touch orientated devices are the way of the future and Microsoft had to start somewhere.

While I understand that touch has its place, and that it will be expanding over time, I think the main problem is that Microsoft pushed this "test project" and is trying to bend the industry to its will overnight, rather than easing into it. It's ironic that Microsoft was striving to make Windows 8 user experience friendly, but their marketing and removal of options made the entire consumer side of the experience much less friendly.

And just a side note... You may want to rethink that whole "work place is the last to adapt" thought. PCs in general flourished because of massive corporate sales that helped propel the market. Things like laptops were initially designed to make work easy to take on the go, but have morphed over time into general consumer devices. Tablet PCs were initially designed for industrial and commercial applications, but have been usurped by the current tablet appliances. Microsoft wouldn't be anywhere if they hadn't catered to the corporate sector early on, and continued to do so with products like Office. All this points to how critical the professional / enterprise sector has been in the continued growth of companies like Microsoft. Not to mention the fact that well over half of all PCs in use today are business computers. The cavalier "they'll adapt to touch, we'll make them" attitude of Microsoft betrays a deep ignorance (or just dismissal) of what got them to their current status as an industry leader. And it also shows a complete lack of comprehension on just what kind of monetary impact (in hardware, retraining, reorganizing, ergonomics redesigning, etc) is required to make their "touch is the future" goal a reality in the business world.

 

[cliffordcooley]

And just a side note... You may want to rethink that whole "work place is the last to adapt" thought.

Right, they should adapt just as quickly as they abandoned IE6.

 

[Mantrhax]

I have a computer, I dont use tablets, I dont want windows crap 8

slow Windows 8 sales lol, why ? I bet u still doesnt get a clue uh ?

 

[Vrmithrax]

Right, they should adapt just as quickly as they abandoned IE6.

Haha, touché! Well played, sir... Well played

 

[Chazz]

Right. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with how many of us are using Windows 7 and have absolutlely zero problems with it. Or how many of us still use XP (and also, according to what I've read) have absolutely zero problems with IT. Nope. Of course -- it's the OEM's fault. Dell, HP, and Lenovo just aren't pushing Windows 8 hard enough (despite that every single new machine that has appeared in the last two months has Windows 8 on it).

Whatever.

I upgraded from Windows 7 and I loved that OS. The other computers in my house has windows 7, besides main one and my sisters laptop and I'm happy with them. Just because I do like the Windows 8 on my Main rig I'm not gonna start non-nonsensically bashing Windows 7. It was and continues to be a great OS.