New York looks to ban cryptomining to study environmental impacts

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trparky

Posts: 921   +970
Crypto is just like beanie babies, baseball cards, and other such so-called "valuable" things that someone says is worth something. Eventually the bottom will drop out and the last one out will be holding a piece of absolutely nothing. It's a Ponzi scheme.
 

NightAntilli

Posts: 657   +821
I already mentioned whataboutism and this is why: Saying "But what about CHINA?!" Because that obviously makes anybody in the west entitled to also pollute as much as possible
Nobody said that. If you're gonna complain about whataboutism, at least discuss what people are saying instead of deflecting and projecting.
And tone down the emotions. It's not healthy for you.

since hey, it's ultimately China's fault even if by not stopping we'll contribute at least as much and make the problem WORST AND FASTER.
It's futile to be reducing emissions in New York, when China is increasing it. That's like trying to save the Titanic from sinking by one person swimming under it and trying to pushing it up.

You can't refuse to clean your house by pointing at your neighbor since he's doing the same and nobody is doing anything at all.
As previously mentioned, many countries, including the US, are in a downtrend in CO2 production. In this case, the climate is the excuse. It's all about limiting the poor for the benefit of the rich.

Which would be true, but only in the case where your money supply is tied directly to a fixed resource, such as gold. In that case, accumulating debt leads directly to inflation, as you don't have any mechanism to increase your money supply.

Problem is, it's not the 1930's, and the Gold Standard isn't a thing anymore.
It doesn't matter if it's tied to gold or not. It's simple supply and demand. Excess supply with lower or same demand is a decrease in value. If all you had are apples and dollars, if you have 10 apples and 10 dollars, each apple is worth 1 dollar. If you increase the money supply to 1000 dollars, then each apple is worth 100 dollars.

When you have a free-floating currency, you can simply just adjust interest rates as necessary to either promote growth or clamp down on inflation (see: The Fed under Volcker; remember the 27% interest rates?) There's a reason why the Fed's current mandate is to keep yearly inflation around 2% or so, and interest rates are adjusted as necessary to reach that target.
In theory. What does negative interest rates tell you?
And based on the amount of money printed last year, that 2%... Yeah... Unrealistic. It's only been kept in check due to lockdowns. When that lifts... Prepare for trouble.

There's even a line of economic thinking that says the debt simply doesn't matter so long as you have a truly free-floating currency (I disagree with it, since the debt payments eventually will drive up inflation over a long enough timespan).
So you do understand. Good.

Also, your argument of "invest in crypto because it will protect you from hyperinflation" is just wrong; crypto is tied to some amount of the USD. If the USD declines in value, so will crypto. $100 of crypto gives you as much monetary protection as $100 in stocks.
This is blatantly false. Look up DXY and compare it to Bitcoin. They are negatively correlated to each other.

And because China is doing it, we all should do it. Got it! :rolleyes:
Another one without reading comprehension. So I'll simply repeat it again;

It's futile to be reducing emissions in New York, when China is increasing it. That's like trying to save the Titanic from sinking by one person swimming under it and trying to pushing it up.
 

trparky

Posts: 921   +970
It's futile to be reducing emissions in New York, when China is increasing it. That's like trying to save the Titanic from sinking by one person swimming under it and trying to pushing it up.
So basically, you're saying that unless China does something we shouldn't either. Got it. Nice environmental policy you have there.
 

terzaerian

Posts: 960   +1,399
Crypto is just like beanie babies, baseball cards, and other such so-called "valuable" things that someone says is worth something. Eventually the bottom will drop out and the last one out will be holding a piece of absolutely nothing. It's a Ponzi scheme.
I don't think people were buying 3DFX video cards with Beanie Babies in 1993.
 

NightAntilli

Posts: 657   +821
Crypto is just like beanie babies, baseball cards, and other such so-called "valuable" things that someone says is worth something. Eventually the bottom will drop out and the last one out will be holding a piece of absolutely nothing. It's a Ponzi scheme.
Typical response by someone that doesn't understand crypto.
Just FYI, fiat is the largest Ponzi scheme in history.

So basically, you're saying that unless China does something we shouldn't either. Got it. Nice environmental policy you have there.
What is it with you people...

As previously mentioned, many countries, including the US, are in a downtrend in CO2 production. Nobody is saying to turn it into an uptrend. I am saying it's useless to try to make the downtrend steeper when China is in an uptrend.

Stop putting words in people's mouths.
 

NightAntilli

Posts: 657   +821
Just to clarify...;

Saying "But what about CHINA?!" Because that obviously makes anybody in the west entitled to also pollute as much as possible
And because China is doing it, we all should do it. Got it! :rolleyes:
So basically, you're saying that unless China does something we shouldn't either. Got it. Nice environmental policy you have there.

1*kEsw4IbcH4ILEr17mkJk3A.jpeg
 

trparky

Posts: 921   +970
Just FYI, fiat is the largest Ponzi scheme in history.
At least I can say that the US Dollar is backed by the good faith in the US Government. You can't say that about Crypto where the price could be X today and X minus 200 hundred tomorrow and next week it could be X plus 500 while a week after that it could be X minus a thousand.

The US Dollar works because we know that from any day of the week to the next the value of it will not change. Two US Dollars will buy you a loaf of bread today as well as next week and more than likely a month later too. That's not so with any Crypto that changes price every time a cow farts.
 

wiyosaya

Posts: 6,101   +4,342
I think the many comments on this article are reminiscent of the widely debunked "A Hummer is more efficient than a Prius over their lifetimes" from more than a decade ago. https://slate.com/technology/2008/0...tter-for-the-environment-than-a-prius-is.html
So, rah, rah, rah, if there is going to be a cryptomining ban, let's ban EVs because environmental BS and EVs use electricity too! 🤣
http://www.econ.cam.ac.uk/research-files/repec/cam/pdf/cwpe1948.pdf Oh, so bitcoin mining has the potential to use more electricity than China and the US combined. What total crap. :rolleyes: Who believes in science anyway. :rolleyes: Let the Cryptominers rule.!
 

terzaerian

Posts: 960   +1,399
I think the many comments on this article are reminiscent of the widely debunked "A Hummer is more efficient than a Prius over their lifetimes" from more than a decade ago. https://slate.com/technology/2008/0...tter-for-the-environment-than-a-prius-is.html
So, rah, rah, rah, if there is going to be a cryptomining ban, let's ban EVs because environmental BS and EVs use electricity too! 🤣
http://www.econ.cam.ac.uk/research-files/repec/cam/pdf/cwpe1948.pdf Oh, so bitcoin mining has the potential to use more electricity than China and the US combined. What total crap. :rolleyes: Who believes in science anyway. :rolleyes: Let the Cryptominers rule.!
Considering most crypto mining operations are based in China right now anyway, where they have absolutely zero incentive to use green power, what was your point, again?
 

gamerk2

Posts: 536   +428
It doesn't matter if it's tied to gold or not. It's simple supply and demand. Excess supply with lower or same demand is a decrease in value. If all you had are apples and dollars, if you have 10 apples and 10 dollars, each apple is worth 1 dollar. If you increase the money supply to 1000 dollars, then each apple is worth 100 dollars.

You forget the wonders of Capitalism; if the money supply increases, then companies will increase supply to meet the increased demand, since they are in the business of making money. Sure, if people were "willing" to spend 100 dollars on an apple then maybe you'd have a point, but what would happen instead of either:

a: Demand falling off a cliff due to the increased price
b: People would start growing apples themselves
c: The producer of said apples would invest an some more apple trees.

Obviously, C is what would occur; apple production would increase, and apples would continue to sell for around 1 dollar apiece. Your argument falls apart because you don't believe businesses are ruthlessly capitalistic.

In theory. What does negative interest rates tell you?
And based on the amount of money printed last year, that 2%... Yeah... Unrealistic. It's only been kept in check due to lockdowns. When that lifts... Prepare for trouble.
Negative interest rates are just a way to entice consumers (especially those who are higher earners) to spend more money, since it literally costs them money not to. This has only really been done once (Europe, tail end of the Great Recession), and guess what? No runaway inflation. Because once consumer spending recovered and inflation started to rise interest rates went back up to discourage as much spending, restoring balance.

What will ultimately happen if we'll get a few quarters of 5-6% economic growth, and a short term burst of inflation (likely localized to a few industries who are production constrained (see: any product that needs a CPU). Then inflation rates will rise, inflation will taper off, and we'll go right back to complaining who's fault it is we can't grow the economy faster then 2.5%.

At the end of the day, history proves your argument is wrong. Raegan spent like a drunken sailor, and high inflation was tamed under his administration (mostly due to Volcker rather then anything Raegan did). Same with Clinton. And Obama. And Trump. And inflation has remained at the Feds 2% target, and has done so since the Fed has made it's focus to keep inflation stable. If anything, the fear of inflation has cost economic growth as the Feds have been notoriously slow to decrease interest rates in response to a slowing economy.
 

NightAntilli

Posts: 657   +821
At least I can say that the US Dollar is backed by the good faith in the US Government.
Which good faith is that? That faith is waning by the second, both locally and globally.

You can't say that about Crypto where the price could be X today and X minus 200 hundred tomorrow and next week it could be X plus 500 while a week after that it could be X minus a thousand.
Let me put it this way... Tesla, Microstrategy and Square are buying Bitcoin. Visa and Paypal are doing transactions on Ethereum.
What does that mean? Maybe these large corporations are stupid for not trusting the US dollar over crypto.
😏

The US Dollar works because we know that from any day of the week to the next the value of it will not change. Two US Dollars will buy you a loaf of bread today as well as next week and more than likely a month later too. That's not so with any Crypto that changes price every time a cow farts.
I bet Venezuelans thought the same thing.

Then your words are meaningless. That's clear. 🤣
Meaningless, only to the uninitiated.
 

NightAntilli

Posts: 657   +821
You forget the wonders of Capitalism; if the money supply increases, then companies will increase supply to meet the increased demand, since they are in the business of making money. Sure, if people were "willing" to spend 100 dollars on an apple then maybe you'd have a point, but what would happen instead of either:

a: Demand falling off a cliff due to the increased price
b: People would start growing apples themselves
c: The producer of said apples would invest an some more apple trees.

Obviously, C is what would occur; apple production would increase, and apples would continue to sell for around 1 dollar apiece. Your argument falls apart because you don't believe businesses are ruthlessly capitalistic.
Lol. I definitely believe business are ruthlessly capitalistic. You forgot one little detail. Despite the prices increasing, the wages do not.

Your theory doesn't work, because, producing an apple costs the same amount in true value, but costs higher in dollar amounts. That means that in dollar amounts, the apples are more expensive to produce, and therefore more expensive to sell. Producing more apples will not offset this.

Negative interest rates are just a way to entice consumers (especially those who are higher earners) to spend more money, since it literally costs them money not to. This has only really been done once (Europe, tail end of the Great Recession), and guess what? No runaway inflation. Because once consumer spending recovered and inflation started to rise interest rates went back up to discourage as much spending, restoring balance.
So you're unaware that there's negative interests pretty much across the globe right now...
And you recognize that it happens during recessions...
And at the same time you think the dollar will not collapse....
🤷‍♂️

What will ultimately happen if we'll get a few quarters of 5-6% economic growth, and a short term burst of inflation (likely localized to a few industries who are production constrained (see: any product that needs a CPU). Then inflation rates will rise, inflation will taper off, and we'll go right back to complaining who's fault it is we can't grow the economy faster then 2.5%.
How is inflation going to fall?

At the end of the day, history proves your argument is wrong. Raegan spent like a drunken sailor, and high inflation was tamed under his administration (mostly due to Volcker rather then anything Raegan did). Same with Clinton. And Obama. And Trump. And inflation has remained at the Feds 2% target, and has done so since the Fed has made it's focus to keep inflation stable. If anything, the fear of inflation has cost economic growth as the Feds have been notoriously slow to decrease interest rates in response to a slowing economy.
We'll see who's right in the upcoming years. Don't say I didn't warn you.
 

trparky

Posts: 921   +970
I bet Venezuelans thought the same thing.
But the United States is a superpower with power in so many places around the world. Besides, if the US economy fails the whole world is going to go with it and then what? You can have all the crypto you want but you're going to be in the same d**m boat with the rest of us poor bastards. Don't kid yourself dude, you're going to be just as screwed as the rest of us are.
 

Pongo

Posts: 6   +4
The thing no ones explained to me. During the collapse crypto is trying to defend again how will you access your funds when the lights go out?

Or we can go cosmic; what happens when the sun spits out CME and fries all systems that hold the blockchain records? Is the blockchain EMP hardened?

The one advantage to fiat is it's a tangible realworld object I obtain as reward for contributing to society. If bitcoin starts issuing physical tangible non-digital currency I can keep under a pillow I'll start taking it a bit more seriously.

It would also be interesting to see where the wealth distribution of bitcoin lies. Say US citizens have 20%, China 40%,etc. That's pretty terrible financial leverage in my eyes. Say the larger stake holders decide to kick the floor out from under you.

I'm neither for or against; just rambling.
 

terzaerian

Posts: 960   +1,399
The thing no ones explained to me. During the collapse crypto is trying to defend again how will you access your funds when the lights go out?

Or we can go cosmic; what happens when the sun spits out CME and fries all systems that hold the blockchain records? Is the blockchain EMP hardened?

The one advantage to fiat is it's a tangible realworld object I obtain as reward to contributing to society. If bitcoin starts issuing physical tangible non-digital currency I can keep under a pillow I'll start taking it a bit more seriously.

It would also be interesting to see where the wealth distribution of bitcoin lies. Say US citizens have 20%, China 40%,etc. That's pretty terrible financial leverage in my eyes. Say the larger stake holders decide to kick the floor out from under you.

I'm neither for or against; just rambling.
These are all very good questions!

During a serious collapse, yes, it will be difficult to access the blockchain. However, the decentralized nature of Bitcoin and other cryptos are going to allow it to get back on its feet much more quickly than other systems which are more centralized. A laptop running a Bitcoin node can be powered by a few solar panels; the server farms that Bank of America needs to operate, not so much. So yes, during the event, we'll all be in trouble, but during the recovery, crypto is going to continue to shine.

Previously, copies of the blockchain have actually been launched into space, or stored on media that is not sensitive to solar activity, so legacy blockchain data is secured as well.

As for wealth concentration, it's complicated. But right now the number of "whales" is increasing, which hints at Bitcoin wealth becoming less concentrated in the hands of few over time more broadly:

 

gamerk2

Posts: 536   +428
Lol. I definitely believe business are ruthlessly capitalistic. You forgot one little detail. Despite the prices increasing, the wages do not.
I'm baking in yearly wage increases. The *average* increase in wages is historically (and recently) been higher then inflation, making this point moot.

Your theory doesn't work, because, producing an apple costs the same amount in true value, but costs higher in dollar amounts. That means that in dollar amounts, the apples are more expensive to produce, and therefore more expensive to sell. Producing more apples will not offset this.
Except it still does work. While the Apple scenario is a simplified one, the same trend holds true across most all industries: Increased consumer demand leads to increased production, leading to balance in the system.

The only point where production costs become a problem (in a working system at least) would be if you become production constrained (either due to raw resources or through unwillingness to invest in increased production).

Regardless, from a consumer point of view, the cost of said Apple should track with yearly inflation, which on average is overcome through natural wage growth.
So you're unaware that there's negative interests pretty much across the globe right now...
And you recognize that it happens during recessions...
And at the same time you think the dollar will not collapse....
🤷‍♂️
And yet, no inflation is sight.
How is inflation going to fall?
Increased interest rates leading to a reduction in consumer spending. Inflation is just a byproduct of economic activity; slow down economic activity, you slow down inflation. The trick is doing it in a way that doesn't tank the economy in the process (see: Stagflation).

That's why the Fed targets 2% for inflation rather then 0%, since it wants an economy that grows at a controlled rate rather then a stagnated one.
We'll see who's right in the upcoming years. Don't say I didn't warn you.
Well, considering I made bank by correctly predicting the "when, how and why" of the Great Recession, I'll take my chances. Economics isn't hard, as long as you follow the correct models.
 

gamerk2

Posts: 536   +428
Previously, copies of the blockchain have actually been launched into space, or stored on media that is not sensitive to solar activity, so legacy blockchain data is secured as well.
Disregarding everything else, there's one thing I want to make clear: Rad-hard processors/memory are only "resistant" to solar effects; they won't work indefinitely. They're just redundant to the point where it's unlikely for any single point critical failure to occur over a given period of time (say, 20 years). But eventually, even the most rad-hard items will fail.

*Works on jobs that utilize rad-hard equipment.
 

terzaerian

Posts: 960   +1,399
Disregarding everything else, there's one thing I want to make clear: Rad-hard processors/memory are only "resistant" to solar effects; they won't work indefinitely. They're just redundant to the point where it's unlikely for any single point critical failure to occur over a given period of time (say, 20 years). But eventually, even the most rad-hard items will fail.

*Works on jobs that utilize rad-hard equipment.
Is this true for archival media like M-discs? Those are designed for long-term storage and have no processors; it's just 1s and 0s engraved directly into a durable medium with a high-powered laser.
 
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