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Next DirectX may pack Mantle-like low-level features

By Scorpus ¬∑ 17 replies
Feb 27, 2014
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  1. There's been a lot of talk recently surrounding Mantle, AMD's low-level API that gives developers better access to graphics card hardware, with less CPU overhead and greater coding efficiency. Tests show that Mantle is quite effective at improving performance on...

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  2. m4a4

    m4a4 TS Evangelist Posts: 887   +437

    Better gaming in general because of competition? I think so...
  3. Wagan8r

    Wagan8r TS Evangelist Posts: 599   +56

    Awesome. I was hoping that both DirectX and OpenGL would take this approach natively without having to rely on third-party middleware.
  4. wastedkill

    wastedkill TS Evangelist Posts: 1,423   +350

    If apple owned mantle Microsoft would be getting its directx shut down and games made with it shut down, and a lawsuit in it
  5. OliTheG

    OliTheG TS Member Posts: 61   +27

    Just gave me a thought.

    Would future DX versions (or this DX12, DX 11.2, whatever they be calling it) be supported in the Xbox One? Because if performance is as good as they say it is, that could make for some very unhappy Sony fanboys (although to be fair, all fanboys are very sad)
    m4a4 likes this.
  6. treeski

    treeski TS Evangelist Posts: 985   +229

    Your posts are always so comical.
    Darth Shiv likes this.
  7. Burty117

    Burty117 TechSpot Chancellor Posts: 3,041   +793

    I rarely say this but, thank you AMD for pushing things forward in this sector! Considering AMD have a reputation of Driver issues, they were the last company I would expect to push something like Mantle across but they did it, they proved it helps and now the competition has to catch up, I like this a lot and would probably explain why Nvidia have been quiet, because they knew this would happen.
    cliffordcooley likes this.
  8. misor

    misor TS Evangelist Posts: 1,230   +229

    I just remembered it now:
    intel = core
    amd = mantle
    ms = better call its next directx feature/version as crust
    cliffordcooley likes this.
  9. Puiu

    Puiu TS Evangelist Posts: 2,403   +875

    Even if they say it will be better. it's still a long time away from launch. we're lucky if we get half of what's written there in 2015.
  10. wastedkill

    wastedkill TS Evangelist Posts: 1,423   +350

    If Microsoft was owned by Apple it would sue AMD for copyright infringement and for not paying Microsoft patent money for direct x

    Thanks! Even tho I dont write them in a comic thanks for telling me that I should put them in a comic :)
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2014
  11. Jad Chaar

    Jad Chaar Elite Techno Geek Posts: 6,515   +974

    Very interested to see how this works out. I hope DX12 also brings Ray Tracing :D.
  12. dividebyzero

    dividebyzero trainee n00b Posts: 4,891   +1,262

    Microsoft and D3D have always moved with glacial pace, so no surprise there.
    The OpenGL extensions are further advanced, and will probably be easier to integrate. (BTW: Anyone wanting a sneak preview of the extensions should go >>here<<)

    The other half of the equation, is that Mantle is having a painful birthing process as well. If every game with Mantle support continues to launch without Mantle then AMD are burning a first-to-market advantage such as it is.
    Since AMD seem intent on keeping Nvidia and Intel away from Mantle for most of this year (at least), I'm pretty sure that even at a leisurely pace, D3D and OpenGL will overhaul Mantle sooner than later - given that Nvidia, Intel, and AMD are involved.
    Assuming that the "closer to metal" DX and OGL get both the TWIMTBP and Gaming Evolved thumbs up, I can't see either Nvidia or Intel wanting Mantle at all. Given that AMD's own GCN 1.0, VLIW4, and VLIW5 architectures aren't even Mantle compatible five months after AMD unveiled the API, it remains more a PR/marketing feature (especially given the scarcity/price of GCN 2.0/1.1 cards in some markets) for the most part.

    Kudos to AMD for re-kickstarting the low overhead gaming API - just a pity that they didn't go hell for leather in software/beta test hires to ensure a less protracted and problematic introduction.
    MS might incrementally add options (along with taking a few away by making DX12 a Windows 9 exclusive), but real-time ray tracing isn't coming to gaming any time soon. Even a less compute intensive SVOGI-type iteration would need to be judiciously applied to allow it to be accessible to consumer graphics cards.
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2014
    mccartercar likes this.
  13. hahahanoobs

    hahahanoobs TS Evangelist Posts: 1,911   +593

    AMD doens't have the money, time or the resources to maintain acceptable performance and improvements to Mantle over time, and it was only a matter of time before MS would fire back, and they have.

    Waiting for Mantle on a per title basis is not going to work to gain mainstream acceptance. Thief just released, and reviewers are already tearing it a new one, and a LOT of people read and trust those reviews. Add the fact that the Mantle implementation on that titile is late, and now you have early adopters not experiencing it, and by the time it is available, players may have already beat the game and moved on to other titles.

    Mantle is good in theory, but even AMD says it benefits low end CPU's with mid to higher end GPU's, and that just isn't good enough.
  14. cliffordcooley

    cliffordcooley TS Guardian Fighter Posts: 9,171   +3,262

    Is it possible AMD simply wanted to give MS a push in this direction. That is AMD knew Mantle would not survive the winter, so to speak. But yet wanted the features available across the board, without doing the hard work themselves. The more I think about this the more I think AMD pushed a button and ultimately got what they were aiming for. If AMD can get MS to do this, it will make their APU's look even better. And in the end they can drop Mantle support, at MS cost of R&D with DirectX. If I were to guess, I'd say AMD has been conniving little B__ards this whole time. I'll give AMD a (y) for their success, either way.
  15. dividebyzero

    dividebyzero trainee n00b Posts: 4,891   +1,262

    Unlikely IMO. AMD could have got much the same response by announcing Mantle, and deluging the press under a mountain of PowerPoint slides (an AMD forté). Add some feelgood partnership buzz from EA DICE, and it would have accomplished much the same result without expending any serious effort...or at least less than what has been expended.
    The cause and effect might be the other way round. Remember Carmack talking up Nvidia's OpenGL extensions (see my previous post for link) just after Mantle launched? Those weren't achieved overnight. In fact Nvidia seemed to have been hard at work aiming for a closer to metal approach since the Kepler architecture began achieving fruition.
    On the D3D front things are murkier. Might be a "me to" reaction, and also might be a "why is our hardware vendor trying to undermine us" reaction. Might also be a reaction to the extensions already being worked into OpenGL by both AMD and Nvidia
    Not anytime soon. Ditching a new feature short term usually brings about a collective :SMH: reaction from the industry...and AMD can ill afford that. EA DICE also have a vested interest.
    cliffordcooley likes this.
  16. YAY AMD! :)
  17. Mantle is an API just like DX, it is not vendor specific, AMD already stated that "Mantle" is NOT proprietary.

    Mantle does not talk directly to the hardware as the Term "low-level" is being over stated.

  18. dividebyzero

    dividebyzero trainee n00b Posts: 4,891   +1,262

    What you mean is that Mantle is hardware agnostic - which is likely true.
    Now, if the tech isn't proprietary, then it is open source. If it is open source then developers other than EA DICE and AMD should have access to the code. Do they? Of course not.
    AMD's own project manager is already on record as dismissing this, and made it abundantly clear that Mantle is AMD tech and any use of it by a third party will require a licence.
    AMD's own Mantle FAQ also has a conspicuous avoidance of the phrase "open source", just a repeated mention of a nebulous "later in 2014" timeline for an SDK for anyone wanting to buy in.

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