To the cause of war

[Nic]

It cannot be right to kill even a single innocent civilian under any circumstances (how would *we* feel if any member of *our* families were killed while trying to get rid of a dictator that *we* didn't even support). Its too easy to say go to war when we aren't the ones that will suffer. Most Iraqis are against Saddam and would love to see him go. Maybe we should invite Saddam for talks with Nato and then arrest him, or target him with a cruise missile while he sleeps. Just a thought.

 

[Phantasm66]

Originally posted by Nic
Maybe we should invite Saddam for talks with Nato and then arrest him, or target him with a cruise missile while he sleeps. Just a thought.

Do you think he's daft!? He will have thought of that.

In any case, Saddam has many body guards and doubles, some of which look naturally like him, and some of which have been surgically altered to look like him.

AND he's got an established power base, and is grooming his son as his replacement.

This man is not an *****. If he was, he would not be a dictator of a middle eastern country. He's an intelligent man, and he's already thought of just about anything you could plan.

The only way to beat him is to get the rest of the world united against him, or enough nations to make him scared. The US on their own is more than enough match for him, but as we have seen, the US has problems acting on its own.

 

[TS | Thomas]

I don't buy a lot of the crap over war with Iraq (Or other places) when they say stuff like "oh innocent people will die, don't do it". Innocent people have been dying in Iraq for a long time regardless of whether or not they are at war. These are probably the same people that were "ok" with letting Adolf get Poland & all & hope he'd leave it at that.

I dunno about where everyone is posting from though Channel 4 have had several (rather timely as it turns out) documentaries done covering the regime in Iraq & that of the Taliban. From a football stadium people get hung from the goal posts (afganhistan), meanwhile in Iraq several were beheaded & others hung also on the main streets. Similarly the guy they had in iraq (reporter) HAD to be given a minder from the iraqi government to be used as a translator & from what was seen became rather upset at the mention of saddams son & wouldn't allow him near where the hangings & all took place. Similarly the hotel were journalists *must* stay is checked everyday by an intelligence guy to see what they are up to. Similarly when they were given some tours of places where they were "supposedly" making chemical weapons & such they were told they could look around freely, except they all had to stay in a group & when this guy did wander off (twice) he was forced back to the main group despite being told they were free to look where they wanted.

Heck even after the gulf war ended didn't Saddam kill those involved in uprisings against him or against the..... kurds in the north as was shown over the TV. Killing "innocents" is only a problem to those that don't live under those conditions.

Even on Irish TV a few weeks back they had on The Late Late Show (The highest rated domestic show) they had a good few Iraqi exiles/asylum seekers & they pretty much backed any action to get rid of Saddam & weren't much bothered bout there being some innocents killed as, like they said they were being killed anyway.

The main about this that does annoy me though is the US (well, others too) saying Iraq has failed to comply with UN resolutions & such when for SIGNIFICANTLY longer Israel has been in breach of resolutions as well.

 

[Nic]

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This man is not an *****. If he was, he would not be a dictator of a middle eastern country. He's an intelligent man, and he's already thought of just about anything you could plan.
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Even intelligent people can be *tricked*. Only today, Robert Mugabe was *lured* to France.

If the west can just hold Saddam captive for a short period, re-organize the flawed election (which Saddam would lose), and then send him back to Iraq, then he will be out of a job.

If Saddam's *family* don't allow a free election then we don't release Saddam.

 

[TS | Thomas]

Probably nothing will happen to Robert Mugabe in France, he most likely went on condition that he wouldn't be arrested (which under French law he could be). There's 1 main guy there (I forget his name) who's been trying to get Mugabe arrested but its failed, he tried the last time he was there too & again failed (& was hit about a bit by his security guards too)

 

[Phantasm66]

Man, I am sorry but it just doesn't work like that, and its not as easy as that. If it was, then what you are discussing would have happened 10 years ago.

If you stop and think about what you are suggesting, then you will realise that its pretty unrealistic. I am sorry, not trying to offend you, but it is.

Saddam is never going to fall for some inane trap, and he certainly isn't going to give up without a big fight.

 

[Nic]

Believe me, I know that my suggestion is unrealistic, but not necessarily impossible. Saddam is not an *immediate* threat (we can afford to wait a little longer), and its worth exhausting all other options before resigning to war. War is never the best option, though sometimes there may be no other choice. Iraq is not *the* problem - Saddam is *the* problem - so why should innocent Iraqis (also our own troops) suffer the consequences of war.

 

[SNGX1275]

Unless Saddam uses human sheilds there will be very few civilian casualities. The US does not just go into war bombing everything they think a bomb can blow up. I think a large percentage of the people who think we should just continute to let Saddam bullshit us think that the US just bombs for the hell of it. The US does not want to kill civilians, and it does everything possible to avoid it, I don't think many of you appriciate how much power the US has and how much restraint is shown. Canada/Mexico/Probably all of South America could be taken over by the US without a whole lot of resistance. Do you think Britian or any other country is going to think its worth it to sacrifice a huge portion of their military trying to cross an ocean to get to us? I seriously doubt it. My point here is that the US is very civilized with its power and is not "warmongering", Bush is doing what he thinks is best for the free world, there are reasons for his decision, you can bet he knows [size=2]way[/size] more than any other civilian does about this matter and how to handle it. He may not be the brightest man alive, but that is the entire reason why he has advisors, and they know just as much or more as he does.

 

[TS | Thomas]

Originally posted by Nic
Saddam is not an *immediate* threat (we can afford to wait a little longer), and its worth exhausting all other options before resigning to war.

That depends on how you define "immediate".
He's already been at war with Iran, invaded Kuwait, fired scuds into Israel (Mainly so that Israel would get involved in the gulf war & thus the US' arab allies would stop supporting them as they all hate Israel more than they hate Saddam) & used biological weapons on the Kurds & those in northern iraq who rebelled against his leadership.

 

[Nic]

I believe you are correct SNGX1275, but put yourself in the shoes of an Iraqi civilian who has no control, or say, over the war that may kill members of their immediate family. How would you feel in such a situation. I would not rule out war, but most people seem to agree that we have not yet explored all available avenues. The current push to war may, at least in part, be due to the costs and logistics involved in maintaining the large numbers of armed forces personel currently deployed in the gulf, as they cannot return home until after the crisis is over. Given the current state of the world economy I wouldn't be surprised if this was having some influence on the decision to go to war now in an effort to quickely end the crisis and reduce the cost of military involvment. I'd like to see Saddam go as much as anyone, but civilian casualties should be the last resort. Most people are against war (at this stage) and its not because they are misinformed, well intentioned, but weak individuals, but because they value the lives of innocent people that through no fault of their own find themselves caught in the current conflict.

Finally ...

I define *immediate* as now. If Saddam had current capability for mass destruction, then why isn't he using it now?

Please note: I am playing devil's advocate here. The crisis in Iraq doesn't really affect me here in the UK (not directly anyway) so I can live with any decision that US/UK governments will end up taking.

Signing out ...

 

[Phantasm66]

Originally posted by Nic
put yourself in the shoes of an Iraqi civilian who has no control, or say, over the war that may kill members of their immediate family. How would you feel in such a situation.

Put yourself in the shoes of an innocent office worker, who unknowingly made their way to the twin towers on 9/11, completely unaware of the horrors that awaited them that day....

Put yourself in the shoes of an ordinary citizen of Kuwait....

Or for that matter a refugee from Kosovo....

A jew during WWII....

Iraqi people do not have the monopoly in suffering or oppression. Its happening everywhere. And it needs to be fought.

That fighting will lead to bloodshed, and its sad. It truly is. But its unavoidable. Saddam needs to be removed, and needs to be removed now.

 

[Nic]

Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, Kosovo, or WWII.
In WWII the German people followed Hitler to war.
The Iraqis do not follow Saddam.
Lets eliminate Saddam, not his people.

 

[Phantasm66]

Dude, I KNOW that Iraq had nothing to do with Kosovo, or WWII.

I was using those as examples of human suffering.

I didn't say that Saddam was behind everything....

My point is that there is all this whining everywhere about the Iraqi people. I do feel sorry for them, but we have to remember that there are a lot of people suffering in the world at this moment.

And a war that removes Saddam would be good for the Iraqi people in the long run. I am sure of it.

 

[Nic]

I agree, removing Saddam would be good for the Iraqi people in the long run. Just lets target Saddam whenever possible, as once he's gone, the Iraqi's will give up fighting and we can all get back to our own miserable suffering.:grinthumb

 

[conradguerrero]

As in Germany's WWII era repressive government, there are no alternatives for an Iraqi citizen to rebel. Political Parties? Only one. Unions? Nonexisitant. Religion? Saddam is the 'head' of Iraq's Islam. Take out the whole goverment mechanism, then restore order and nurture a democratic society.

 

[Rick]

Originally posted by Phantasm66
That's all very well, Rick.

But you are assuming that the rest of the world is as intelligent, humane and civilised as you.

I'm certainly no peace loving, hippie-hugging, panda-saving tree squeezer... but peace just makes sense to me. Yeah?

I'm also not the brightest ball of gas in the universe, but I can't help but think how low humanity sinks sometimes... I am not talking about the current "wars" we are fighting, but just what I have witnessed over time. We still have much seasoning to do before we can consider ourselves reasonable people. I believe it is sad that we are forced to resort to militant action.

I like living in America and I know that almost no one here has the real facts because news media is limited and shady at times, but from what I've seen and heard - I quietly disagree with the war against Iraq and I'm still hoping for a peaceful resolution with Korea while all this is going on.

 

[Nic]

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Rick
I like living in America ...
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Location: Considerably closer to civilization than previously located
Posts: 2445

So you haven't found civilization yet?
[just kidding]

 

[Rick]

Originally posted by Nic
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Rick
I like living in America ...
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Location: Considerably closer to civilization than previously located
Posts: 2445

So you haven't found civilization yet?
[just kidding]

Well, where I lived before had a population of 850 people. I'm in a town of 250,000 now, so it is a little different.

 

[yukka]

half the arab world believes the US only want to go to war to get control of the oil. and to be honest, im not too sure that isnt part of the agenda.

are you americans so dumb you cant see that you are hated across the globe? ill mention that i do not include myself in that but recent events have made me fear what the US will do if it believes its right. if you attack without the UN (the rest of the world basically) agreeing, you are showing that you dont care what the rest of the world thinks if you think there is a war to be had. dont you see how dangerous that is?

im not saying that there shouldnt be a war - saddam should be got rid of as soon as possible as far as i am concerned, but you cant believe you are so incredible that you can go it alone. you are gonna screw the lot up if you dont sort it out.

speaking as a brit (and up to the neck in it where blair is concerned) i find myself wondering what happens if we decide its a bad idea to go to war. what will the americans do? will you go to war? what will happen if we ask you to stop? will we be seen as a threat? probably not, but it wont stop you.

do you see where this is going? the attitude of the US scares the **** out of me, you all believe you are the good guys and the good guys always win. i just hope the US doesnt see the UK as the bad guy in my lifetime, cos i believe you have the ability to blow the whole planet to pieces. in fact id almost say its just a matter of time.

 

[SNGX1275]

yukka your arguments aren't that bad. but the US has shown incredible restraint with its power. the oil issue is lame, that by no means is the reason the US wants to go to war. If more people question me on this I will actually spend more than an hour looking up facts (that I already know but just dont have documentation) on how the US can sustain itself if oil prices go up very much (ie ~$40 a barrel). There is no reason for a country to fear the US unless they are linked with a threat to the US - basically terrorism.
As far as the US being hated across the globe, myself as an American have never understood this. Can anyone thats not American explain this to me? Basically think what would happen to the world if the US pulled all its troops back to the US and blocked off borders with Canada and Mexico.
If you can pull together a strong argument against having US troops in any country other than the US I will be impressed and support you and also encourage your message amoungst my state's representatives.
Have fun.

 

[Rick]

Every war has its price, and there's no doubt that the US is interested in the oil. But I believe America's intentions are meant to be benevolent for the world (Or at least how the U.S views the world anyway).

The U.S is widely hated I hear, and that is to be expected. It is much like people hate certain celebrities, grossly wealthy individuals and popular people in their school etc.. Hating things that have the reputation of being "popular" or "rich" is a human trait that will probably be around for a very long time. I don't know if it is resentment, idolism or disgust, but that's just the way things are.

The U.S has been guilty of many questionable activities over the past couple of centuries, but no more so than any other country. I would dare say the U.S is probably one of the (if not) the most charitable country ever. And I realize U.S charity is probably elitist and selective, but countries don't just give away things.

Any problems that any other country has with the U.S is most likely due to our exercise of "self preseveration". Every country, government and individual is self-serving on a daily basis no matter who or what you are. Of course the U.S will help and hurt according to what is beneficial for itself, but from what I've read and seen, the U.S does a very good job with its abilities. Our government does the best compromise between greed and benefit of any country I've heard of... So as a whole, the U.S should not be hated. We normally don't go around blowing up and taking over countries and we tend to stay neutral in hot situations.. That's something you may have no seen if any other government had our "power".

Many of the complaints middle-easterners have with the U.S is actually not related to our government directly, but created by U.S captilists such as big business and our big nose.

 

[Nodsu]

US can sustain itself if oil prices go up very much (ie ~$40 a barrel)

The oil thing is not about US sustaining itself, but the inpact it has on economy. The stock markets react hysterically to slightest changes in oil price. And the price going up to 40 would bring a financial catastrophe comparable to the Great Depression. Especially if that high price is because arab nations are still selling oil at low prices to other nations besides US.

 

[Nic]

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quote:
The U.S is widely hated I hear, and that is to be expected.
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I feel it should be made clear that it is NOT the american people that the rest of the world hates, but the american ego and the way americans present themselves to the rest of the world.

e.g.
The way that american companies conduct business, i.e. by using *dirty* tactics to eliminate their competition, and the way similar *dirty* tactics are used to eliminate presidential candidates etc. can't help but give everyone the impression that americans will use any means to satisfy their own ends, regardless of any sense of *fair play*. I believe it is this attitude that is really the root cause of why america is so disliked by the rest of the world. Its true that america does do a lot of good (as do many other countries), but it is human nature to only look at the bad things.

Also, as far as terrorism goes, I don't think that we will ever eliminate it in our lifetimes. Its a sad truth that moslem fundamentalists simply hate all other non-islamic people because they believe we are all *evil*. They have been brainwashed. America has been a main target for them simply because of americas prominence on the world stage and its involvement the the affairs of other nations. Its unfortunate, but anything that america does that interferes with other arab nations will merely strengthen their hatred.

If by some good fortune the iraq crisis can be brought under control quickely, with few casualties, and the people of Iraq seen to praise the americans for helping them get rid of the Iraqi regime, then this may help americas image considerably.

 

[SNGX1275]

Originally posted by Nodsu
And the price going up to 40 would bring a financial catastrophe comparable to the Great Depression. Especially if that high price is because arab nations are still selling oil at low prices to other nations besides US.

Thats not what I meant, I meant that if the global price goes up to that the US no longer needs to import any (well it would probably take a few years to get the refineries set up to extract the oil from oil shales).

 

[yukka]

a big fat reason why a large amount of the world hates america is because of israel.

there is a single jewish country in a disagreement with an entire continent over holy land, with the USA supporting the Israelis because it has a large amount of jewish people in positions of power (and its worth a fat lot of votes and election fund capital).

as far as the arab/muslim world is concerned, the israelis should not be there, and as the country only sprung up after ww2, i dont really blame them. america supports israel, and while the israelis murder palistinians (who are only trying to get their rightful land back as far as they are concerned) then the USA will be hated by them.