Trump's plan to eliminate Energy Star could raise utility bills for American families, experts say

[SRB]

Well Trump has destroyed the country's economy, his most illogical thing to do next is to personally make people's electric bills go up even higher.

Look, I get everyone is eager to get their side out, but shouldn't you wait for some actual statistics rather than quote opinions from one side or the other about the end of the world.

Here's the deal. The stock market crashed, world ending. The stock market recovered, world ending. Employment reports exceeded expectations, world ending. Egg prices were super high when he took office, world ending. Egg prices come down, world ending? No. doesn't fit the narrative, bury the story. Inflation dropping like a rock, world ending, not fast enough.

There are still plenty of opportunities for things to go very south. Why not wait for some of them before screaming the sky is falling.

By the way, I think it's just wonderful that people are actively rooting for a recession or other calamity to befall the country to the benefit of their personal views. "A huge economic disaster is what we need to get rid of Trump, let's hope it happens sooner rather than later"

Some people need to check their politics at the door before the get online.

 

[daffy duck]

Always the pinheads come out in force, of course Techspot commenters are the REAL EXPERTS.

 

[wiyosaya]

Energy star is not a vote up or down on an appliance's quality.

Perhaps you should explain that to the other posters to this thread. They seem to think it is.

Everything has an energy star sticker......It's the regulations that kill everything.

BS - Just like Seatbelts back in the 60s&70s? You know, the ones that Lee Iaccoca P&M'd about that were going to make cars too expensive, and then, when they were mandated by REGULATIONS, he touted how they were going to save lives and pushed them as a selling point.

Have to use the latest and greatest refrigerant due to global warming potential...never mind that it's a sealed system,

No consumer-level system is actually sealed. They all leak. It would definitely cost far too much to produce a sealed system that does not leak.

the latest refrigerant cost 10 times as much, and needs higher pressures to operate, making the components more expensive.

And in the meantime, do you think that manufacturers are not aware of this? And in being aware of this, they are actively seeking better systems?

Yes, lets pretend that removing all regulations will make things better. What a load of pure crap. Removing regulations will do nothing to improve product quality. Why? Because manufacturers will ALWAYS try to make the most profit by using the lowest quality and lowest costing parts - no matter the regulations.

Or the tricks with ratings. our new dishwasher has cycles that take over 3 hours to run.

So do what makes sense. Get off your lazy rear and wash your dishes by hand. Who the F needs a machine specifically designed to wash dishes?

But think of the savings in energy, since it doesn't additionally heat the hot water unless you tell it to every cycle. Why, so we can save energy. Never mind that our water heater is in the attic on the other side of the house, and I wouldn't even be using hot water due to the distance and lower fill levels.

P&M, P&M, P&M. Its all the regulations fault.

 

[wiyosaya]

Here's the deal. The stock market crashed, world ending. The stock market recovered, world ending. Employment reports exceeded expectations, world ending. Egg prices were super high when he took office, world ending. Egg prices come down, world ending? No. doesn't fit the narrative, bury the story. Inflation dropping like a rock, world ending, not fast enough.

Sounds just like everything Trump is saying.

 

[wiyosaya]

2006 was nearly 20 years ago. That was before the modern trend of appliances only lasting 3-5 years tops. My fridge from 2004 works great. The family's and friends fridges from the mid to late 2010s are much more hit or miss.

Nice attempt at backpedaling.

The HVAC techs I've worked with have explained to me that this is caused by the modern two stage coolant pumps, which are smaller and higher pressure to use less energy, but a by product is that the bearings and other moving components are smaller, and with less overprovisioning, they wear faster and fail much earlier. All this was in pursuit of meeting modern efficiency standards.

Yep. The HVAC Experts talk a good game, but they are far from experts. Manufacturers using cheap sh!t parts has nothing to do with the refrigerant. Its a design/cost choice by the manufacturer because they are too cheap to put in quality, properly sized parts. Manufacturers want you to buy a new widget every few years; otherwise, they will go out of business - or at least that's the way that they think and the wonderful economic system we live by works, or excuse me, doesn't work. As I see it, its a race to the bottom.

The same thing applies to the likes of cars and other machines. In the pursuit of efficiency, a noble goal in of itself, we have pushed too far and created devices with terrible longevity encouraged by our throw away culture. We'd be better off having the 2000s levels of power use and putting all the money spent on replacing these things into building new nuke plants or solar fields.

Yep. P&M, P&M, P&M. Go ahead, blame it all on Biden, left wingers, democrats, and the demons that live in your closet and under your bed.

Exactly. There are very expensive washers, fridges, ece that last a very long time. 20 years ago, the budget models for consumers were also very reliable, but today it's become pay to play, and unless you are willing to dump used car money on an appliance expect a sub 10 year lifetime, and of course planned obsolescence because none of the electronic controllers are generic and replacements are to made, whereas older models used generic analog controllers and mechanical parts that were available for decades.

More P&M, P&M, P&M. There are quality products out there. You have to look for them, like it or not. Ever heard "Buyer Beware?"

 

[Eldrach]

Won’t change anything. There’s plenty of requirements globally for making more energy efficient appliances.
Well - it might change on the few appliances made in the US - but the rest of the world will still focus on making appliances more efficient, which will include the ones shipped to the US.
So unless there’s a massive boom in the appliances industry in the US using US made components - it’ll just be one less sticker on your new fridge/toaster/washing machine/toaster (etc.)

 

[airbornex]

The beauty of Energy Star was that it made energy efficiency effortless for consumers. No need to decode wattages or dive into specs—you just looked for the label. Without it, we’re back to a guessing game that ends with higher bills and more pollution.

 

[pnntmp]

The sticker denotes an appliance is certified to use a certain amount of power running a typical cycle. It’s not “useless” because it conveys certain facts about the appliance. The certified appliance however, is different than their non-certified appliances because it’ll use less power, less water, etc.

Remember those washing machines from 20-30 years ago that had half the drum full of water that actually washed your clothes…? Those were the days.

In an ironic way, people were more conscious of their usage back then BECAUSE they were less efficient (more power more water), and washed less often; now with the certification, one no longer has to care about that because the appliance forces it upon you.

OK, but you can find these facts online, and you can see the real numbers, not just a logo. Which makes the sticker kind of useless, and on top of that it could be misleading. A device without a sticker may be far more efficient than one that has it, but simply not participate in that program - in such case the sticker may fool you into buying a less efficient device.

Anyway - there is no reason whatsoever the taxpayer to fund this program.
The Energy Star sticker is an advertisement. Why should the taxpayer pay for private companies advertising their products?

 

[DukeJukem]

I don't remember anyone complaining about bronze, gold, platinum and titanium power supplies. Should they only care about longevity too?

Yea those aren't comparable at all. PSUs advertise their efficiency ratings and detailed specs clear as day. An appliance has a stupid sticker on it with very small print with some numbers on it that most people won't understand let alone look at in detail. Those numbers aren't on the sticker either. Not that I've seen. It's usually on the back of the appliance while the energy sticker is on the front.

 

[gamerk2]

Anyway - there is no reason whatsoever the taxpayer to fund this program.
The Energy Star sticker is an advertisement. Why should the taxpayer pay for private companies advertising their products?

Because it's cheaper then not paying for it, through reduced energy costs.

 

[WhiteLeaff]

God the moralizing from these "experts".

You know what else hurts low income households?

Expensive appliances that fail after 3-4 years because you needed to shave 1% off its energy use, so they had to use a fancy pump design that doesnt last, so the poor are kept perpetually in poverty trying to get ahead as everything goes to **** constantly.

I'd rather pay $5 more a month then have to replace my fridge every 5 years, and a LOT of people agree with that. Dont forget all the WASTE created by having to constantly replace those appliances. All the "muh enviroment" arguments ignore the huge amount of waste created by these policies.

Since his first term, his misguided tariffs have driven up the cost of those same appliances. The issue you're raising has nothing to do with efficient products. Failing to require minimum efficiency simply allows companies to manufacture lower-quality goods.

Unless you use it as a cupboard and open it frequently... Refrigerators typically last well beyond five years. Samsung, for instance, provides a 10-year warranty on the most crucial component—the compressor.

 

[Underdog]

The sticker gives a quick easy reference for those who value energy efficiency against other factors. Those who feel that more efficient appliances deliver worse longevity can also make use of the quick easy info. They can just select the product that has the lowest efficiency rating. Everybody wins!

If anybody thinks the US is suddenly going to start manufacturing its own products again they need to be ready to accept factories full of robots, not people. The companies won't be prepared to pay decent wages to real people.

 

[pnntmp]

Because it's cheaper then not paying for it, through reduced energy costs.

How could not wasting money possibly be cheaper than wasting money?
And please explain in brief the exact physical mechanism through which stickers reduce energy costs. Does it matter where you stick it? The color? The text? Magic spells? How does it work?

 

[hahahanoobs]

The reason no one complained is just like the energy star sticker......No one pays any attention to it. Wattage first, long life and quality components, steady power levels, proper safety circuits that work, and then, if I were to find two power supplies that equally adept at all of those, I MIGHT, repeat MIGHT, look at the efficiency ratings.

No one cares if it uses a few watts more energy when they're overclocking a 14900KS to the moon, they just want the system to work properly and the power supply to not blow up.

This a joke right?
Go find a PSU at any e-tailer without the rating being front and center in the description.

Go find me someone talking about PSU's without using the words Bronze, Silver, Gold, Platinum or Titanium.

 

[hahahanoobs]

You fridge, washing machine, etc. are not powered on for that long. Your PC can be on for hours straight.

Wow. Just wow.

 

[hahahanoobs]

Yea those aren't comparable at all. PSUs advertise their efficiency ratings and detailed specs clear as day. An appliance has a stupid sticker on it with very small print with some numbers on it that most people won't understand let alone look at in detail. Those numbers aren't on the sticker either. Not that I've seen. It's usually on the back of the appliance while the energy sticker is on the front.

I'm convinced this isn't a tech site anymore.
Can't be. No way. Nuh uh. Nope.

That's all I have to say. This is crazy.

 

[VitalyT]

It looks like everything that Trump does is there to make life more difficult for Americans, which is the opposite what the president is supposed to do.

 

[dangh]

Your fridge, washing machine, etc. are not powered on for that long. Your PC can be on for hours straight.

Yeah, you should just turn the fridge on for 5 mins in the morning /s, ... Oh ffs some people.....

 

[Gars]

The man who proposed to end the ministry of education now doing that?
hello new world /s

 

[Kashim]

Either way, like some of the commenters above mentioned, I’m happy to pay $5-10/yr more in electricity in exchange for an appliance that won’t fall apart in 3-4 years.

What is wrong with you people? It's like your brains can't process basic information and ideas. Ok, let's remove all the energy efficiency stickers off all the appliances. Is that magically supposed to make them last longer? This idea that every company that manufactures appliances is making them last a shorter time by trying to make them more energy efficient is utterly absurd. It's another brain-dead Trump-supporter conspiracy theory of sorts.

Newsflash: Every company is cutting corners and trying to manufacture everything as cheaply as possible to increase profits. THAT'S why your appliances are breaking soon. It has absolutely nothing to do with energy efficiency stickers or trying to make them more efficient. Welcome to late stage capitalism where profit is put above all else. You can keep looking for government agencies and other nonsense to put the blame on, but this is the actual reality of things.

 

[SRB]

Perhaps you should explain that to the other posters to this thread. They seem to think it is.

BS - Just like Seatbelts back in the 60s&70s? You know, the ones that Lee Iaccoca P&M'd about that were going to make cars too expensive, and then, when they were mandated by REGULATIONS, he touted how they were going to save lives and pushed them as a selling point



No consumer-level system is actually sealed. They all leak. It would definitely cost far too much to produce a sealed system that does not leak.

And in the meantime, do you think that manufacturers are not aware of this? And in being aware of this, they are actively seeking better systems?

Yes, lets pretend that removing all regulations will make things better. What a load of pure crap. Removing regulations will do nothing to improve product quality. Why? Because manufacturers will ALWAYS try to make the most profit by using the lowest quality and lowest costing parts - no matter the regulations.

So do what makes sense. Get off your lazy rear and wash your dishes by hand. Who the F needs a machine specifically designed to wash dishes?

P&M, P&M, P&M. Its all the regulations fault.

The problem with people who think that the government, groups, and educated people in general that think that the unwashed masses can't and shouldn't make decisions and need to be looked out for with overarching regulation is that their best arguments reduce everything down to black and white. We either get no regulations or they're all good.

While not all regulations are bad, you can often tell very easily which ones were put in place by the people and consumers to provide a useful standard, and when a small group of people impose something for our "own good" There is a huge difference between electrical standards and codes to prevent shock and fire hazards and an arbitrary, not based in and concrete reasoning, national law that a dishwasher, clothes washer, shower head, toilet, etc. can only use X amount of water. But with your kind, since there are some useful regulations, then obviously there are lots more we can use to make Utopia.

Next, how many refrigerators, ice cream makers, window A/C units have you had apart recently? Since your statement is obviously *****ic. First, EVERY A/C system is sealed with the sole exception of mobile compressors and comerciall chillers, wth have an exposed compressor with seals, and only mobile and large systems are designed and equipped to be serviced. While it is possible to "recharge" a refrigeration, for example, It's almost never needed or practical..
They have completely encased and sealed compressors, solid metal soldered tubing for connections, and the evaporators and condensers are much sturdier than those used in your car. They are filled, and the tubes are crimped and sealed with no service fittings.

Due to cost, when a compressor fails, you buy a new one, the fridge gets disposed of (again where there are regulations that they must be recovered before being crushed or chopped up for scrap. The are also contain a fraction of the refrigerant as the large systems. In other words, we're ditching R-134a for a supposed "global warming potential" that is negligible to non existent.

The part I love most about regulations is the vagueness, which the refrigerant regs provide absolutely one of the best examples of how they've run amok. The word "Potential", by definition, means the don't have a clue about if or how much these items will actually cause ANY warming. But let's not forget the cry of the regulator: "We have to do this, if your wrong, the world ends, if I'm wrong it's not a big deal" I disagree, it is a big deal. They need to be reigned in.

 

[Tantor]

God the moralizing from these "experts".

You know what else hurts low income households?

Expensive appliances that fail after 3-4 years because you needed to shave 1% off its energy use, so they had to use a fancy pump design that doesnt last, so the poor are kept perpetually in poverty trying to get ahead as everything goes to **** constantly.

I'd rather pay $5 more a month then have to replace my fridge every 5 years, and a LOT of people agree with that. Dont forget all the WASTE created by having to constantly replace those appliances. All the "muh enviroment" arguments ignore the huge amount of waste created by these policies.

Very true. We bought a refrigerator from a reputable US company about 10 years ago. The compressor failed just out of warranty. Turns out the government had mandated a new 'environmentally safe' coolant, but the compressor, motor, and coils were engineered for the old coolant. In order to make the new coolant work, they had to run the compressor at pressures and temps it was not engineered for. The company blithely substituted coolants and dumped it on the market.

We paid hugely for motor and compressor replacement. Now it's a decent fridge.

We had a similar experience with a very expensive 'environmentally safe' dishwasher. After 6 service calls we dumped it, and bought a Bosch which had the best reliability rating.

The energy requirements are pure smoke and mirrors. They're forced down people's throats at huge expense.

 

[Tantor]

What is wrong with you people? It's like your brains can't process basic information and ideas. Ok, let's remove all the energy efficiency stickers off all the appliances. Is that magically supposed to make them last longer? This idea that every company that manufactures appliances is making them last a shorter time by trying to make them more energy efficient is utterly absurd. It's another brain-dead Trump-supporter conspiracy theory of sorts.

Newsflash: Every company is cutting corners and trying to manufacture everything as cheaply as possible to increase profits. THAT'S why your appliances are breaking soon. It has absolutely nothing to do with energy efficiency stickers or trying to make them more efficient. Welcome to late stage capitalism where profit is put above all else. You can keep looking for government agencies and other nonsense to put the blame on, but this is the actual reality of things.

Not true. Prioritizing energy requirements decreases functional efficiency in areas other than energy.

Look at 1970's US automotive smog control requirements. They had a HUGE detrimental effect on reliability, drivability, and even gas mileage. It took many years to develop compensating technology.

 

[Jme Kerul]

Very true. We bought a refrigerator from a reputable US company about 10 years ago. The compressor failed just out of warranty. Turns out the government had mandated a new 'environmentally safe' coolant, but the compressor, motor, and coils were engineered for the old coolant. In order to make the new coolant work, they had to run the compressor at pressures and temps it was not engineered for. The company blithely substituted coolants and dumped it on the market.

We paid hugely for motor and compressor replacement. Now it's a decent fridge.

We had a similar experience with a very expensive 'environmentally safe' dishwasher. After 6 service calls we dumped it, and bought a Bosch which had the best reliability rating.

The energy requirements are pure smoke and mirrors. They're forced down people's throats at huge expense.

So, you went for an European brand that engineers their products based on European standards.
I have to agree I dumped two pieces of junk Whirlpool and went for Bosch because yeah, US brands and their value for shareholders sück big time.

 

[Tantor]

While not all regulations are bad, you can often tell very easily which ones were put in place by the people and consumers to provide a useful standard, and when a small group of people impose something for our "own good"

Yep.