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Intelligent life on Mars?

By Eric Legge
Jun 29, 2003
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  1. Rick

    Rick TechSpot Staff Posts: 6,305   +52 Staff Member

    Can life exist, even dormantly, without an atomsphere in space? I find it difficult to understand any living organism.. Be it cells or more complex life... survive in absolute zero, directly unshielded from cosmic rays. Is that possible?
     
  2. MrGaribaldi

    MrGaribaldi TechSpot Ambassador Posts: 2,802

    This seemed like a good post to continue on...

    What you're saying goes quite well with the last theory in my previous post, allthough that says that all life on earth is "alien", and not just us...

    But back to life on Mars...

    Continuing on the theory from above, that life didn't come to be on any of the planets, but rather in the/a asteroid belt (in our, or another solar system), and crashed on the different planets...

    When the asteroid hit Mars (and Earth), it was cooling down, there was oceans and carbon dioxide aplenty...
    But there's a very big difference between Earth and Mars... Mars is a much smaller planet, with a smaller gravity... This give it the problem of holding on to the lighter atoms...

    As the probes to Mars has proved, there is next to no oxygen or lighter gases there...
    This is because Mars doens't have enough density to keep the suns gravity from dragging them away from it's atmosphere.... So after a while there was very little left of Mars' atmosphere, and so the sunlight wasn't blocked, and thus the oceans were turned into gases which in turn floated off into space...
    (Space isn't total vacuum as is popularly belived, but rather the space between each atom is so big that it's hard to detect them... This is due to atoms drifting away from all the planets in the solar systems, yes even Earth....)

    NOTE: Still a very general description, as I wouldn't want you to stare at wet paint, since some of it gives off dangerous gases... :D

    And when this had gone off long enough, there wasn't any oceans left where the bacteria could live, and life on earth died off...

    There are a couple of things that doesn't quite fit with this theory, as there is ice on Mars' poles, though mostly carbondioxid based...

    Another problem with this theory is that there are lifeforms which doesn't require oxygen, nor sunlight here on earth (they live in deep sealed off caves), and those could easily have developed on Mars too...

    I'll just tackle one more post, and then I'll shut up for a little while...

    Because (one of) the (more) popular theory about how the moon was created doesn't allow for this... In very short terms, the theory says that another object crashed with Earth, tearing off what we know as the moon, and putting it in the current orbit...

    Why doesn't this theory allow for life to develop on the moon?

    Because there isn't an atmosphere on the moon, and all life needs an atmosphere, even if they're not carbon based... And before you say that life could have evolved beneath the surface, it would need heat, and that as you said, it cooled of much faster, so the life would have had much less time to develop into something (that'd be able to travel from one planet to the next)...


    I know there are a couple of points that doesn't seem to fit, but that's because I don't want to go into too much detail, there are limits to what I care to write, and that I'm tired and probably has forgotten a point here and there...

    Anyways, that's what I know about the subject at hand... Sorry if you find it too boring, or long winded, but I couldn't find any other way to write it...


    [EDIT]If you are interested in this kind of things, there was a nice documentary called "Space" a while ago which took up quite a few different theories about the big bang, life and other space related things... I think it was made by BBC, but i'm not certain, I'll try to find out tomorrow.... [/EDIT]
     
  3. MrGaribaldi

    MrGaribaldi TechSpot Ambassador Posts: 2,802

    Good point... It was actually what I was thinking off when I was writing the "disclaimer" in the prev. post...

    I'll have to come back to you about that tomorrow (when I've had some sleep), but from what I can remember now, it was because of the radiation and the heat from the sun (at that time)... It froze, and since it wasn't absolute zero degrees in space, and was a bit warmer at the time it would have happened, it survived...

    It wasn't until it was warmed up in our atmosphere that life reawakened...

    Also, from what I can remember, this didn't happen in our solar system, but another system with a diferent class star...
     
  4. MrGaribaldi

    MrGaribaldi TechSpot Ambassador Posts: 2,802

    Since I was writing so much, I figured I could allways write another... :D

    You don't have to read more than the first pages in genesis to see there is something strange...

    But instead of saying that because not everything in the book is true you shouldn't belive anything of it, why not look upon it as a metaphor?
    It does have some resemblance to how the solarsystem was created...

    My point is that as soon as you start discussing religion, don't take everything written down as an exact recollection of what happened, but rather an abstraction/metaphor not to be taken at face value, but to be though about...

    I'll leave off there, as I don't want to start a religious discussion since my head allready hurts from writing the other posts in this thread....
     
  5. Nic

    Nic TechSpot Paladin Posts: 1,928

    I personaly don't believe that life came from space and ended up here on Earth. Here are some things to think about:

    1. If it all started with a big bang, then its fair to say that just before the explosion, there was no life?

    2. If there was no life before, or just after the big bang, then life must have developed afterwards?

    3. If life developed afterwards, then why would it develop in an asteroid belt that is bombarded with radiation, and has no atmosphere?

    4. If we need the right conditions for life to develop (atmosphere, heat, water, etc.) then isn't Earth the only planet in our solar system that currently has these conditions, and isn't this a good reason for life to develop right here, rather than in some inhospitable asteroid belt? Would any lifeform survive if we sent it into space?

    5. Seems to me that life developed here on Earth and has remained here on Earth. We are not aliens that arrived from outer space.

    Also, where did all the matter come from that led to the big bang?
    If it is a cycle that continues to repeat, then why is our universe supposedly expanding at an ever increasing rate?
    If it is not a repeating cycle, then what caused all the matter to come together to produce a big bang?
    Where does all the radiated energy (heat, gamma radiation, etc.) that leaves the universe end up?
    Is the mass of the universe decreasing?
    Is the universe of infinite size?
    What happens if it continues to expand?
    Where does it all end?
    Where did it all come from?
    How can a bunch of chemicals develop the ability to reason and understand?

    There are a lot of questions, and the big bang theory doesn't answer the more important question of what existed beforehand. The big bang theory does provide a reasonable explanation of why the universe is expanding, and how the stars, planets, etc., were created. It doesn't, however, explain much else.
     
  6. SNGX1275

    SNGX1275 TS Forces Special Posts: 12,626   +320

    Mr. G I'm pretty impressed, nearly all of what you said fits with a post I made a long time ago
    I've got another part to this to follow, was too big for 1 post....
     
  7. SNGX1275

    SNGX1275 TS Forces Special Posts: 12,626   +320

     
  8. MrGaribaldi

    MrGaribaldi TechSpot Ambassador Posts: 2,802

    Hehe SNG... Nice post!

    Too bad I didn't think about checking the old forum, since then I wouldn't have had to type all I did...

    Anyways, all I wrote in my prev posts (except about religion) was from a course in Astro Physics I took last semester...
    Or rather, the "how life began" theory was from that course, "how the universe came to be" was more from the textbook....
    This makes it a bit hard to me to recheck the life theory, but I'm searching for my notes right now, and will post what I can find (when/if I find it)...
     
  9. Nic

    Nic TechSpot Paladin Posts: 1,928

    Very good post SNGX1275. Many things that I wasn't even aware of. I'm looking forward to MrG's life theory. Some good stuff here.
     
  10. MrGaribaldi

    MrGaribaldi TechSpot Ambassador Posts: 2,802

    I'm very sorry to say this, but I can't find my notes anywhere... They must have gone into the recycling bin a while ago...

    So you'll just have to take my word that there is such a theory, and that I'm not just making it up...

    I'd try to search on the web for it, but I don't have the time, and won't have it until the end of September (at which point I'm allmost certain I'll have forgotten all about this thread...) :-/

    Once again, I'm sorry!
     
  11. MrGaribaldi

    MrGaribaldi TechSpot Ambassador Posts: 2,802

    Just thought I'd bring this old thread back to life since I finally found some proof to back up my above posts...

    Here and here is some of the theory saying that organic matter might have been brought to earth by comets, which has led to this project being started (maybe not directly but..)

    Not exactly what I was looking for, but at least it gives some background into what I was talking about above...
    (Saw a newsflick about NASA sending a satelite to check for frozen life on one of the asteroids in our solarsystem, so I thought I'd update this thread.... Annoyingly I couldn't find anything about the mission on NASA's site though :()

    Read if you care, ignore if you will...
     
     
  12. Godataloss

    Godataloss TS Rookie Posts: 501

    Fungal spores can survive in the vacume of space and it has been theorized that the ingestion of "certain" mushrooms played an important part in the evolution of human mind/consciousness and that these spore could of been of extra-terrestrial in origin. It as good as any other theory I've heard to explain the exponential explosion of human technology- we were reprogrammed by alien spores! A similiar theory has been esposed about viruses wich can also survive the vacume of space. The frightening/exciting point to be made here is that fully 3/4 of the human genome is unexpressed retroviruses that could be 'turned on' by new/different viral triggers being introduced into the biosphere.

    Also if you place any stock in this theory, space might be filled with biological material from other planets that is just looking to land on the right rock and germinate. Space exploration as well as human/evolutionary biology is in its infancy and to think that just because we havent found water/life on mars it means there is no other source of life out there is to show absolutely no grasp of the extrodinary vastness of space.

    :cool:
     
  13. vassil3427

    vassil3427 TS Rookie Posts: 822

    You know I think it's really sad. Sad that you all think we're the result of some cataclysmic event. That we're just some random abnormality that evolved... Evolution is unprovable..it has never been observed..and never will be... Look at rock sediment, it even goes against evolution. We are not some random mistake, we were created. And that is obviously evident, no accident could have created such perfect beings. We have ears for hearing, eyes for seeing..the list goes on. Only God could have created us... Though I guess some of you should still consider yourselves accidents...Cause you'd rather have come from a monkey or some primortial soup..than from a holy God that knew exactly what he was doing...
     
  14. Godataloss

    Godataloss TS Rookie Posts: 501

    It always seems strange to me that flat-earthers such as this think that evolution and God are mutually exclusive principles. MY god would/did begin things with a great explosion from which all elements of time, matter and space slowly coelesced leaving obvious evidence that ALL life is related, inter-dependent and derivative of that original spark. Why is it insulting to think we evolved from a monkey or slime-mold? Is there not perfection in the way a mollusk filters plankton from sea water? As for what is 'holy'- I assure you that this is WHOLY a human concept and if there is some devine intent for man, there has yet to be a religion that understands it.
     
  15. vassil3427

    vassil3427 TS Rookie Posts: 822

    You are wrong, Christianity has always known Gods purpose, it's all written down in the bible. But thats a matter of faith, and a matter you will deal with for all eternity...Jesus Christ came to save, and rejection of him gets you a one way ticket to hell...Its that simple....

    God didnt begin time/space with an explosion. He spoke it into existence in 6 days.
     
  16. Godataloss

    Godataloss TS Rookie Posts: 501

    So that's it? God said "Shazammmm!' above this incredibly big top hat and the earth, stars and all humanity popped out?

    The bible is an allegory and a pretty poor one at that and it has absolutely nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus the man, husband and prophet. Christ's message was one of love and inclusion that was perverted and co-opted by the catholic church as a means of controlling people (especially women, and the poor-sound familiar?) by claiming to be the "one true way to salvation" and if you don't like it- well yer just going to HELL! yep, right to hell! <insert thunderclap>. The bible and christianity is just an attempt to replace Greek, Roman, and Pagan gods and rituals with a different god and different rituals. Mind control now payable by check, money order or Visa.

    Believing in the bible is not an act of faith on your part it is an act of desperation.:D

    Lest you think this has strayed off topic, perhaps we could question wether if there were beings on Mars, presumably totally unaware of previously mentioned human Jesus Christ, purported son of God, would they to be condemned to the fires of hell too? :confused:
     
  17. MrGaribaldi

    MrGaribaldi TechSpot Ambassador Posts: 2,802

    Would it be possible to keep the religious part of this discussion in another thread? The topic is wide enough allready without including a discussion of whether we were created by a/the God and if yes how He went about doing it...
     
  18. lowman

    lowman TS Rookie Posts: 446

    Regarding Evolution being unprovable

    Just a comment of evolution being unprovable - first off, it's a heck of a lot more provable than mankind simply being "created" (Adam and Eve). Second, for example - look at your appendix. It is a vestigial organ, meaning it simply has no use in your body anymore, which is why it can be removed and it won't affect you at all. Out appendixes DID have a function some time ago, but our bodies changed and the adaptation stuck. Evolution doesn't take plave overnight...it takes hundreds of thouusands and millions of years. Mutations are a proven fact in the animal kingdom, that is a proven fact. When the animals that exhibit those mutations survive, and the mutation ends up being beneficial, those genes are passed on and over time they are populated to offspring, and again and again and again etc. I don't think the EXTREMELY close similarities between some dinosaurs and moder day raptor birds (hawks and the like) is simply a coincidence. I don't think the fact that apes are the only other animal with an opposable thumb like humans is a coincidence. I don't think the fact that only 1 or 2 genes or chromosomes seperate apes and man is a coincidence either. As I said on another post, to each his or her own, and live and let live - we're all on the same team at the end of the day. My only point is, believe what you want to believe, but facts are facts, and I guess I'm just someone who believes in scientific research more than a story that's been interpreted and re-interpreted a hundred times over through time by different people with different agendas...

    I gotta stop watching the Discovery Channel...
     
  19. Masque

    Masque TechSpot Chancellor Posts: 1,212

    I agree. All of the discussions are hypothetical....all unproven theories, whether you like to believe it or not. The point is (as Mr. G puts it) let's honor everybody's right to their viewpoint....whether or not it aligns with ours. There are many forums on the 'net' that cater to this type of discussion. Let's keep TechSpot to what it was primarily meant for okay?

    That's my rant, my $.02 and simply my opinion.
     
  20. Godataloss

    Godataloss TS Rookie Posts: 501

    The reason most flat-eathers point to as rebuttal to evolution is the fossil record. They say that there is no fossil proof of a continual evolution of any individual organism- Also the emergence of man happened in an instant geologically speaking so, to them, it is proof of a man with a big white beard saying shazam!- let there be cable tv!
     
  21. MrGaribaldi

    MrGaribaldi TechSpot Ambassador Posts: 2,802

    If you absolutely have to discuss that topic in this thread at least do it in a courteous manner!

    Don't use derogatory language, don't call each other (or groups) derogatory names and try to keep the insults to a minimum.

    If not, the topic will either be closed or cleaned, and a cookie point deducted from the debantants (flamers) accounts...

    Consider yourself warned.
     
  22. Rory7

    Rory7 TS Rookie Posts: 164

    I know were not supposed to be on this topic and ill get bitched at. I think the theory of evolution is perhaps more plausable than adam and eve, and btw, adam and eve wasnt just one story of how man came to be, the next chapter contains a completely differnt story of how we all came to be.
    I think the bible was people trying to give an explination as to why we are here. Since advanced science wasnt around people just had to try and make sence of the whole universe matter. But the perfection of the universe is what makes you think, like if earth was any closer to any futher away from the sun we wouldnt be able to maintain such an opulant habitat. The perfection of mathematics. How the average flame from coal or wood is just big enough to suffiecntly warm an average man. How the same amout of atoms in a human is the same amout of collective human atoms in a star. All this perfection makes you think that perhaps there just might be something who made it. I certanly dont believe that if we obey certain rules we all go to heaven and get greeted by angels and so on. Quick fact about mans interpritaion of an angel. It body composition and wings are not in the correct ratio, therefore the weight of the wings would crush its back and it certainly wouldnt be able to fly. I believe the bible is a form of control, to stop people from desending into chaos and the things about god and so on are there to enforce it. So im all for the big bang theory and the theroy of evolution, but there has to be somthing there that made it. I also belive though that once you die you rot, perhaps if ur lucky you might get excaved in 1000 years time by a incredibly large headed 7 foot tall hareless superhuman and get placed in a museam. Faith is spawned from fear and truth, eg u fall of a cliff, you know ur falling of a cliff, you dont want to fall of a cliff, so u think of somthing to soften the harsh reality that your gonna look like a pizza. Regilion is a crutch for people to live on.
     
  23. vassil3427

    vassil3427 TS Rookie Posts: 822

    Well I donno what you've been smoking...I dont know what you are referring too by "the next chapter contains a completely differnt story of how we all came to be" That is a complete lie. Religion is not a crutch...What is the meaning of life then? If the whole point is to be born, live, and die...and then be nothing...Why is it worth living at all? Why not go commit suicide..there's no point after all right? There is a point, God created man to glorify him. After we die our soul seperates from our body and either goes to Heaven or hell. The Bible is the most ACCURATE book ever written, there is not one single flaw held within its pages(NIV is not included).

    You have every right not to believe the Bible. But it is a decision you will have to live with for eternity. I myself trust in Jesus Christ for my salvation. He came and died for the sin of all mankind.

    The bible warns that by rejecting Christ on this earth...you will spend eternity seperated from him...and eternity in hell...

    I will leave it at that, because that is what the bible says, you can either accept or deny it, its your choice.
     
  24. vassil3427

    vassil3427 TS Rookie Posts: 822

    The Greek, Roman and other gods where created by people unwilling to trust in the one true God.
    The catholic Church is perverted....
    It is an act of faith, and something you will live with forever. You speak of the bible as you do because you cannot possibly understand it. By being an unsaved individual you cannot fully comprehend the bible and its teachings...Its that simple...
     
  25. Didou

    Didou Bowtie extraordinair! Posts: 5,899

    Please keep the religious fanatism on the low on these forums please. This is TechSpot not ChurchSpot.
     


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