26 U.S. states ban or restrict local broadband initiatives

gamerk2

TS Evangelist
LOL !!!

they voted for Trump, why are you surprised? they want to pay 100 $ for low speed internet.
In Romania 1GB/s Fiber Optic it's less than 8Eur/month ...
You're comparing a country the size of Idaho to the United States? It's a little more challenging interconnecting the US than it is Romania.
Yes, it's clearly not doable, just like it wasn't doable to give rural America access to both power and water.

...oh wait, the government did that. Too bad the solution for Internet access can't possibly be exactly the same.
 

loki1944

TS Maniac
And the US is composed of "smaller countries/states" that can generally self-govern themselves. How is that any different from what Romania can do? The biggest difference is that in Romania you have multiple choices for 1Gbps.

If it was one monolithic state then Trump would have lost the elections based on the popularity vote.

The US is just stuck with anti-competitive practices that inhibit any real development. The UK has the same problem with BT basically having a monopoly and refusing to upgrade. You are forced to buy slow sub 100Mbps connections on unreliable networks and expensive plans.

I don't even know how IT companies are even able to work properly in London. But anyway, the current trend is that they are moving business because of Brexit to France, Germany and Romania. More work and a better salary for me :D
Because neither has anything remotely comparable to the vast size of America's states. Pretty simple. What would be fantastic is if we stopped wasting money on protecting/funding Europe (I.e. babysitting) and spent the next $685.9 billion on our infrastructure. Toss in that 22% of the UN budget we pay as well and get another $1.1 billion.
 
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loki1944

TS Maniac
LOL !!!

they voted for Trump, why are you surprised? they want to pay 100 $ for low speed internet.
In Romania 1GB/s Fiber Optic it's less than 8Eur/month ...
You're comparing a country the size of Idaho to the United States? It's a little more challenging interconnecting the US than it is Romania.
That maybe so, but it is a fact that all electronic infrastructure in US is on average 30% cheaper than anywhere else in the World with the exception of China, Japan, South Korea, Taiwan - places where it is manufactured in the first place.

It is also no secret that US is oligarchic kleptocracy state, where any kind of independent endeavor is quickly stifled if it is against corporate interests. This is classic example. Why 26 states outright ban small scale development if it WILL benefit overall broadband infrastructure country-wide? It's utter nonsense.

For the record I pay about 15 Euros for 200Mb/Static IP FTTH from tiny local company (8 employees), miles (rather kilometers) from big cities - I can purchase even 5000Mb plan, but there is no point, 200 is more than enough for my needs. No caps, no filtering. It's unheard of in the EU for example for any government banning small scale, local network development because it will hurt corporations. Quite the opposite actually!

Being history/geography buff, I fully comprehend the size of US of A. I really do, but AT&T, Verizon or Comcast or any other of these crocks are not interested in providing good infrastructure. They want to invest as little as possible and earn as much as possible for what little they offer. Read plenty of horror stories about throttling network traffic when watching services like Netflix. How the F are they allowed to do that? You pay for the network and infrastructure required, yet corpo can extort more $ from users if they want 'uncapped' network. WTF is going there?! Land of the free? You kidding right.
It's called capitalism, and it's what allows us to be the most powerful country in the world. We fund a huge amount of NATO and the UN while still being the best country in the world (love walking out my back porch for some AR15/P99/AK47 plinking and never paying VAT for anything). You really do not understand the size of the United States if you think ISPs are just going to start laying fiber where it is not profitable for them to do so. I live about 4 miles from the nearest town of 3,000, 20 miles from the nearest town of 7,000 and 50 miles from the nearest town of 50,000; my nearest neighbor is about 1 mile away. Options are DSL @300 KB/s for $100 (cost of replacing old infrastructure is too much for ISP to consider it), Satellite internet @3 MB/s for $150 with a 50GB data cap ($75 for each additional 25GB after that or you are throttled to ~125 KB/s) and Verizon for $195 for 15GB of 4G (~3-4 MB/s where I am). Satellite can charge this much where I am because the local ISP does not want to invest in its infrastructure due to the demographics precluding profit. The good thing is that it opens the door for someone to undercut them. As to this article, it's somewhat over-sensationalizing as there are still new ISPs that can move in, it just requires a bit of know-how. And the implied relation to NN is nonsense; this really got going during the Obama administration https://www.govtech.com/network/Will-the-FCC-Vacate-State-Broadband-Restrictions.html ; https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/02/south-carolina-internet-laws-broadband_n_1644579.html
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/south-carolina-internet-laws-broadband_n_1644579
https://www.citylab.com/life/2011/11/telecom-lobby-killing-municipal-broadband/420/

A quick google search shows that at least since 2010 this has been a thing.
 

jobeard

TS Ambassador
Whoever created the color coded map needs a refresher course in chart making --forgot to add the key declaring the meaning of each color :giggle:
 

Evernessince

TS Evangelist
Because neither has anything remotely comparable to the vast size of America's states. Pretty simple. What would be fantastic is if we stopped wasting money on protecting/funding Europe (I.e. babysitting) and spent the next $685.9 billion on our infrastructure. Toss in that 22% of the UN budget we pay as well and get another $1.1 billion.
His point was a very good one. From what I see, lower density countries with much lower income per capita are able to do much more regarding internet. If you are going to make size of a country your main argument, then America should be in line with Romania and the more dense states like NY and Cali should be far ahead. The population density of Romania looks like Montana or Wyoming: http://sedac.ciesin.columbia.edu/downloads/maps/grump-v1/grump-v1-population-density/mkddens.jpg

Remember that it's not the total size of the country but how much funding ISPs are getting per capita and the service they are providing in regards to that. Dense states like California really have no excuse for having bad internet. The ISPs there are making bucket loads per mile and providing far worse service. Just for reference, Cali alone has almost double the population of Romania and more then double the GDP.

FYI America spends $308 million on nato, which has a total budget of 1.4 billion. That amount of money is less then what America wastes on a single failed experimental weapons project, it's nothing. It's change in the couch cushions.
 

loki1944

TS Maniac
His point was a very good one. From what I see, lower density countries with much lower income per capita are able to do much more regarding internet. If you are going to make size of a country your main argument, then America should be in line with Romania and the more dense states like NY and Cali should be far ahead. The population density of Romania looks like Montana or Wyoming: http://sedac.ciesin.columbia.edu/downloads/maps/grump-v1/grump-v1-population-density/mkddens.jpg

Remember that it's not the total size of the country but how much funding ISPs are getting per capita and the service they are providing in regards to that. Dense states like California really have no excuse for having bad internet. The ISPs there are making bucket loads per mile and providing far worse service. Just for reference, Cali alone has almost double the population of Romania and more then double the GDP.

FYI America spends $308 million on nato, which has a total budget of 1.4 billion. That amount of money is less then what America wastes on a single failed experimental weapons project, it's nothing. It's change in the couch cushions.
"By NATO’s count, total defense spending of all NATO members stood at about $957 billion in 2017. The United States’ share was about $686 billion. Do the math, and the percentage of U.S. spending is about 72 percent. " https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2018/jul/12/donald-trump/donald-trump-misleads-us-defense-spending-nato-bud/

Montana: 7.09/sq mi Romania: 251/sq mi LOL, total population per square mile is what matters. Nice try; do some research.
 

Evernessince

TS Evangelist
"By NATO’s count, total defense spending of all NATO members stood at about $957 billion in 2017. The United States’ share was about $686 billion. Do the math, and the percentage of U.S. spending is about 72 percent. " https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2018/jul/12/donald-trump/donald-trump-misleads-us-defense-spending-nato-bud/

Montana: 7.09/sq mi Romania: 251/sq mi LOL, total population per square mile is what matters. Nice try; do some research.
:facepalm:


That's the amount the US spent on total defense funding, not on Nato itself.

"The United States spent $686 billion on all of its defense spending across the globe for that year."

Please read the articles you link.

Montana: 7.09/sq mi Romania: 251/sq mi LOL, total population per square mile is what matters. Nice try; do some research.
Right, because last I checked they are putting up fiber lines to serve bears in the wilderness of Montana :joy:.
 

imdarkbreeze

TS Booster
When more of the legislators that allowed this in the first place are hit in their own pockets, charged excessive fees, get :poop: customer service, and then are asked to buy and pay more despite all the :poop: they are getting, then may more states will follow suit and overturn these insane laws that allow this.
You're assuming that legislators deal with ANY of this stuff, and don't have staffers and assistants to handle it all, or that they even notice a change of anything less than 500 dollars a month in their total billing cycle.

Here's a hint, they don't and they don't.
 

glangston

TS Rookie
I don't understand how this is legal. I'd like to see a supreme Court ruling on this as this legally gives people a monopoly. Are monopolies still illegal in the US or was that repealed?
You mean like the government railroads or the government run grocery stores? Oh wait, the government doesn't and shouldn't compete with private Enterprise. Or we'll be asking corporations to pay to fund their competition in the form of taxes.
Where did you get government from that? And we all know that the Supreme court does regulate what corporations (ie,. US vs Microsoft 2001), and it should stay that way, so the consumers don't suffer.
 

Puiu

TS Evangelist
Because neither has anything remotely comparable to the vast size of America's states. Pretty simple. What would be fantastic is if we stopped wasting money on protecting/funding Europe (I.e. babysitting) and spent the next $685.9 billion on our infrastructure. Toss in that 22% of the UN budget we pay as well and get another $1.1 billion.
The US doesn't protect/fund the EU. It is protecting its interests, especially when it comes to its "business" with oil and the middle east. Nobody does anything for free. Even smaller countries like Romania have thousands of men on the ground in Irak and Afghanistan fighting together with US soldiers.

Please don't insult the men who are risking their lives for us by saying stuff like that.
 

Charles Olson

TS Booster
Well just look who trump put in the chair of the FCC and remember how much money he has received in the past .... then you are surprised that what he has been lobbying for in the last decade or so HAPPENS ! Is trump selling these positions to the highest bidders as the worst person for each position seems to get it ( EPA and Public Education and the FCC ) !
 
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roberthi

TS Addict
LOL !!!

they voted for Trump, why are you surprised? they want to pay 100 $ for low speed internet.
In Romania 1GB/s Fiber Optic it's less than 8Eur/month ...
You're comparing a country the size of Idaho to the United States? It's a little more challenging interconnecting the US than it is Romania.
Ignore him. Romania has nothing at all to do with this. The only reason they have electricity in the first place is because of America.
 

roberthi

TS Addict
LOL !!!

they voted for Trump, why are you surprised? they want to pay 100 $ for low speed internet.
In Romania 1GB/s Fiber Optic it's less than 8Eur/month ...
You're comparing a country the size of Idaho to the United States? It's a little more challenging interconnecting the US than it is Romania.
LOL, exactly. People should get their basic geography down before going for a statement like that.
And the US is composed of "smaller countries/states" that can generally self-govern themselves. How is that any different from what Romania can do? The biggest difference is that in Romania you have multiple choices for 1Gbps.

If it was one monolithic state then Trump would have lost the elections based on the popularity vote.

The US is just stuck with anti-competitive practices that inhibit any real development. The UK has the same problem with BT basically having a monopoly and refusing to upgrade. You are forced to buy slow sub 100Mbps connections on unreliable networks and expensive plans.

I don't even know how IT companies are even able to work properly in London. But anyway, the current trend is that they are moving business because of Brexit to France, Germany and Romania. More work and a better salary for me :D
Good for you...time to move on to something you have a stake in.
 

gamerk2

TS Evangelist
"By NATO’s count, total defense spending of all NATO members stood at about $957 billion in 2017. The United States’ share was about $686 billion. Do the math, and the percentage of U.S. spending is about 72 percent. " https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2018/jul/12/donald-trump/donald-trump-misleads-us-defense-spending-nato-bud/
That's total defense spending, not the amount spend on NATO (which is something like $1 Billion; its chump change).

Try understanding facts before posting them.
 
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roberthi

TS Addict
LOL !!!

they voted for Trump, why are you surprised? they want to pay 100 $ for low speed internet.
In Romania 1GB/s Fiber Optic it's less than 8Eur/month ...
You're comparing a country the size of Idaho to the United States? It's a little more challenging interconnecting the US than it is Romania.
That maybe so, but it is a fact that all electronic infrastructure in US is on average 30% cheaper than anywhere else in the World with the exception of China, Japan, South Korea, Taiwan - places where it is manufactured in the first place.

It is also no secret that US is oligarchic kleptocracy state, where any kind of independent endeavor is quickly stifled if it is against corporate interests. This is classic example. Why 26 states outright ban small scale development if it WILL benefit overall broadband infrastructure country-wide? It's utter nonsense.

For the record I pay about 15 Euros for 200Mb/Static IP FTTH from tiny local company (8 employees), miles (rather kilometers) from big cities - I can purchase even 5000Mb plan, but there is no point, 200 is more than enough for my needs. No caps, no filtering. It's unheard of in the EU for example for any government banning small scale, local network development because it will hurt corporations. Quite the opposite actually!

Being history/geography buff, I fully comprehend the size of US of A. I really do, but AT&T, Verizon or Comcast or any other of these crocks are not interested in providing good infrastructure. They want to invest as little as possible and earn as much as possible for what little they offer. Read plenty of horror stories about throttling network traffic when watching services like Netflix. How the F are they allowed to do that? You pay for the network and infrastructure required, yet corpo can extort more $ from users if they want 'uncapped' network. WTF is going there?! Land of the free? You kidding right.
Here's the deal. If you don't live in America, you have no say in it, nor worry about it. You don't like it, fine. Voice that opinion, but be sure to offer thanks for all that it has done for your own country. As it stands, we wouldn't be able to see your opinion here if it wasn't for America.

I've lived in both countries and can tell you that at least most places in America don't have all of this pounding a household like the UK does:

- Car tax
- Road tax
- Council tax
- Income tax
- TV tax (even with commercials)
- VAT

and the list goes on. You can compare all day, but you can't hold a candle. Don't get me wrong, I like both countries, but the opinion only goes so far.
 
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gamerk2

TS Evangelist
Personally, this doesn't sounds right. Why limiting the community initiatives?
Simple: Campaign Contributions. This is the (expected) side effect of unlimited corporate donations directly to election campaigns (under the guise of "free speech"). The Millions of dollars in campaign funding more then offsets the few people who would vote against a candidate specifically for this one issue.

Remember kids, "States Rights" only apply when politically convenient.
 
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gamerk2

TS Evangelist
Here's the deal. If you don't live in America, you have no say in it, nor worry about it. You don't like it, fine. Voice that opinion, but be sure to offer thanks for all that it has done for your own country. As it stands, we wouldn't be able to see your opinion here if it wasn't for America.

I've lived in both countries and can tell you that at least we don't have all of this pounding a household like the UK does:

- Car tax
- Road tax
- Council tax
- Income tax
- VAT

and the list goes on. You can compare all day, but you can't hold a candle.
And yet, ironically, those countries have higher take home pay since the cost of government services (Healthcare, Education, etc) is significantly less then the private ones provided here.

I also note that a VAT is basically just a Sales Tax which most states have, you have multiple levels of Income Tax, Road Taxes are implemented as Gas Taxes, and Cars are indirectly taxed by mandated inspections and having to pay to get a license in the first place.

Also, you can't complain about taxes without also specifying where you'd cut spending to make up the difference. Funny how the same people who want to reduce or eliminate taxes complain the loudest when government tries to take something away from them...
 

gamerk2

TS Evangelist
Ignore him. Romania has nothing at all to do with this. The only reason they have electricity in the first place is because of America.
Quite the opposite; Romania (and the rest of Eastern European states) lost their independence after WWII because the US/UK specifically gave Eastern Europe to Stalin when they drew the post WWII map. If anything, the US/UK are directly responsible for the past 75 years of problems in that region of the world.
 
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roberthi

TS Addict
And yet, ironically, those countries have higher take home pay since the cost of government services (Healthcare, Education, etc) is significantly less then the private ones provided here.

I also note that a VAT is basically just a Sales Tax which most states have, you have multiple levels of Income Tax, Road Taxes are implemented as Gas Taxes, and Cars are indirectly taxed by mandated inspections and having to pay to get a license in the first place.

Also, you can't complain about taxes without also specifying where you'd cut spending to make up the difference. Funny how the same people who want to reduce or eliminate taxes complain the loudest when government tries to take something away from them...
Take home pay based on what? Different states, different employers, different job, and different regulations. The current VAT rate is 20%. The current highest state tax is 7.25%. You pay roughly $20 or 15.46 pounds for a license and it's good for 5 years, depending on the state laws. Americans on average are only just in the last few years having to pay anywhere near for a gallon of gas as you would have 20 years ago in the UK. Mandated inspections generally cost $30 and keep everyone safer on the road. The US makes up the difference in a country that supports more acreage and people than the UK through competition and other means. Yes, I understand that might be the point about not monopolizing broadband in the US, but it's not that way everywhere and of all the things we benefit from, that's is often the least of anyone's worries when it comes to something to pay for. I didn't say anything about reducing US taxes. I'm saying they've managed to do more with less than the UK has with regards to taxes. Is the US perfect? No, but it's still a better place to live than most. I personally find both countries a great place to live, but if it came down to what I could get for my money, it's hands down America.
 

roberthi

TS Addict
Quite the opposite; Romania (and the rest of Eastern European states) lost their independence after WWII because the US/UK specifically gave Eastern Europe to Stalin when they drew the post WWII map. If anything, the US/UK are directly responsible for the past 75 years of problems in that region of the world.
Uh...not what I was saying at all. You wouldn't have electricity, refrigerators, microwaves, computers, internet, cars, and the list goes on. Plus, how do you think the US gave that which it does not own to anyone? Countries need to start being accountable for their own messes. Perhaps if Eastern Europe could have held its own against Stalin it wouldn't have been in that position in the first place.

Funny thing though, when war erupted in 1939, the Kingdom of Romania was considered pro-British and had an alliance with the Poles. A lot of the problems Romania had at the time where staving off attacks and annexations of its regions from the Germans and the Soviet Union. Then Romania got itself into bed with the Germans and joined the effort to try to invade other countries or, in some cases, taking back land that was theirs to begin with. It wasn't until Romania, along with Germany, having conquered territory in Russia some time later, and then having met with major losses in Stalingrad, that Romania started to secretly negotiate peace with the Allies. Romania was apparently switching sides between the Germans, Russia, and the Allies. In fact, Romania and the US have been allies and strong supporters of each other for decades. You need to get your facts straight.

Regardless, whatever problems you're having, however unfortunate, have zero to do with the article above.
 
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RaXelliX

TS Rookie
Quite the opposite; Romania (and the rest of Eastern European states) lost their independence after WWII because the US/UK specifically gave Eastern Europe to Stalin when they drew the post WWII map. If anything, the US/UK are directly responsible for the past 75 years of problems in that region of the world.
Uh...not what I was saying at all. You wouldn't have electricity, refrigerators, microwaves, computers, internet, cars, and the list goes on. Plus, how do you think the US gave that which it does not own to anyone? Countries need to start being accountable for their own messes. Perhaps if Eastern Europe could have held its own against Stalin it wouldn't have been in that position in the first place.
Are you an American?

Because you shure sound like one writing things like "You wouldn't have electricity, refrigerators, microwaves, computers, internet, cars, and the list goes on"

That's plain elitist talk. Many of the things you listed wrere not even invented in america.

As for EE holding it's own I seriously hope you're joking. USSR had many times more men and hardware to invade and occupy EE countries. Realistlicly the choice was either surrender and try and survive under occupation or resist and be entirely decimated. Guess which one EE people chose.

Not everyone has the luxury of two oceans protecting from both sides and atomic weapons like america does. Learn your history and and stop making elitist uneducated remarks.
 

wiyosaya

TS Evangelist
You're assuming that legislators deal with ANY of this stuff, and don't have staffers and assistants to handle it all, or that they even notice a change of anything less than 500 dollars a month in their total billing cycle.

Here's a hint, they don't and they don't.
Yes, I know. And legislators don't make laws, either, do they?
 
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